[JoeyFiasco]

Originally Posted by flem

wtf? haha

[WhiteSled]

Originally Posted by ZTUNER

Cast iron manifolds are usually more reliable and retain heat better (good thing for spool up). Only true downside is weight. Cast manifolds cost more for tooling but in the end can be produced cheaply. Tubular manifolds WILL crack, its just a matter of when and at $2400 are ridiculous.

I am curius as to why you would need 2 wategates een though you are going single turbo.

I agree BW turbos have thicker shafts but other than costs i don't see any real reason to not go garrett / BB. IMO just saying BW has "better" wheels does not really cut it unless you are providing more details. A correctly sized GT35r will work perfectly. I prefer BB turbos to journal bearing turbos simply because of reliability issues.

IMO
Manifold - $1000
GT35R correctly configured - $1500
Tial External - $275
SS DP with provisions for External gate - $600
Inlet and outlet piping - $ 350
Misc hardware - $250

Roughly $4000
Flash - $1000

This is with generous allowances for profit. i see no reason for 8000 - 10 k turbo kits. Instead of turbo kits people should be working on making the high pressure fuel pump flow more and remain reliable. IMO thats more important than over priced turbo kits that cannot be used to their full potential.

Harry

Hi Harry, speaking the truth doesnt work on bmw boards.....

[ar design]

Originally Posted by WhiteSled

Hi Harry, speaking the truth doesnt work on bmw boards.....

He isn't even close to the truth. Basically, he is pretty close to having no idea what he is talking about.

I'm done here. When we have results, I will post them up. If you are ready for serious power, you will know who to call.

[enrita]

Originally Posted by ar design

He isn't even close to the truth. Basically, he is pretty close to having no idea what he is talking about.

I'm done here. When we have results, I will post them up. If you are ready for serious power, you will know who to call.

ETA ?

[ar design]

Originally Posted by ar design

When we have results, I will post them up.

[WhiteSled]

Trust me, what your doing i did to my old car, 8-10 is INSANE.
Manifold really should not be more then 1500 bucks with the ewg set up. Tial gate, depends on how big, 300 plus or minus a lil.
Custom single dp, screamer merged in or not...ehh hell say 600 bucks and that ALOT.

Custom inlets....ive seen how you have to do this. I know you have to pull the engine to design them and pretty much break one off to get it out. That involves some RD and time/money, but the actual part should be cheap esp since im guessing your putting your intake near the boost canisters sitting righ on top of the turbo.

Things like oil feeds? same shit, its just line. regular oil line will work although im just guessing since i havnt seen the oil fittings on this engine. So whats left...tune and making it all work. You want to charge 3-4k for the tune?

Good luck, you will have a true unique kit that your car and most likly your car only will be running

[jippii ensio]

I don't see any 5k kits around. Why don't you guys who believe in it just do it and sell it at 5k.

[WhiteSled]

Your talking about kits for NA cars that involve more things. Upgrading a turbo/turbos on factory boost car is simpler. Im anxious to see AR's final result, but he wont sell any at 10k

[scheherazade]

FI or NA, the new setup will require a totally new intake regardless, new exhaust headers, new DPs.

You can save your IC probably, but that's about it.

-scheherazade

[Callsign_Jester]

this thread brings teh lulz!!

Good luck to AR with their project and I wouldn't worry about the haters too much. Not many people I have seen on this board understand the first thing about turbocharging a car and haven't the slightest clue as to the amount of time and money a project of this magnitude can cost.

Remember people, there is always more than one way to tackle a project. This is THEIR way, not THE way. If you don't like it, build your own project.

[Andras]

Originally Posted by BavarianBullet

I wish WM luck but everyone seems to start an n54 turbo upgrade project yet they never seem to be heard from again.

Guess standard transmission can't cope with the extra torque arriving from the turbo upgrade.
I am running a Stage 3 V3.2 map on a 335i with all the necessary mods.
The car can't just go straight in WOT conditions for the whole first 3 gears.
Can't just even think of adding some other 150nm, driveability-wise and transmission/reliability-wise

[BavarianBullet]

Originally Posted by Andras

Guess standard transmission can't cope with the extra torque arriving from the turbo upgrade.
I am running a Stage 3 V3.2 map on a 335i with all the necessary mods.
The car can't just go straight in WOT conditions for the whole first 3 gears.
Can't just even think of adding some other 150nm, driveability-wise and transmission/reliability-wise

I really doubt transmission problems are the reason we've not seen any turbo kits on customer cars yet. The clutch and torque converters will definitely be challenged by mega-power but I don't think the 6MT/6AT are in any danger of blowing up unless you drag race the hell out of them.

Traction is tough with 2WD and big power. Not a problem for my 335XI so far though (JB3 map 5: ~345whp?). I can hardly spin the tires at all- the car just jets when I nail it.

[Andras]

Originally Posted by BavarianBullet

Traction is tough with 2WD and big power. Not a problem for my 335XI so far though (JB3 map 5: ~345whp?). I can hardly spin the tires at all- the car just jets when I nail it.

RESPECT!

[ar design]

Originally Posted by Callsign_Jester

this thread brings teh lulz!!

Good luck to AR with their project and I wouldn't worry about the haters too much. Not many people I have seen on this board understand the first thing about turbocharging a car and haven't the slightest clue as to the amount of time and money a project of this magnitude can cost.

Remember people, there is always more than one way to tackle a project. This is THEIR way, not THE way. If you don't like it, build your own project.

Somebody gets it

Originally Posted by Andras

Guess standard transmission can't cope with the extra torque arriving from the turbo upgrade.
I am running a Stage 3 V3.2 map on a 335i with all the necessary mods.
The car can't just go straight in WOT conditions for the whole first 3 gears.
Can't just even think of adding some other 150nm, driveability-wise and transmission/reliability-wise

We need to introduce you to Mr. Mickey Thompson

[Zeph]

LSD and stickies

Good luck with the project AR, this has basically turned into a huge argument like the ASR turbo thread but realize it is just because we are all very interested and I guess "optomism" is hard to come by these days. Many people will mention the GT35R because AMS mentioned that as a perfect single which will supposedly reach max boost around 2400 RPM's and we all have been pitching tent ever since. I, like many others, am not even familiar with these BB? turbos.

Do you think your single might have a downpipe that will Y-out into the stock (or any existing aftermarket) DP-back exhaust? Looks like any stock/aftermarket FMIC and exhaust will be able to remain.. just a new intake, turbo, wastegate/s, manifold, and downpipe (and flash)?

[ar design]

Originally Posted by Zeph

LSD and stickies

Good luck with the project AR, this has basically turned into a huge argument like the ASR turbo thread but realize it is just because we are all very interested and I guess "optomism" is hard to come by these days. Many people will mention the GT35R because AMS mentioned that as a perfect single which will supposedly reach max boost around 2400 RPM's and we all have been pitching tent ever since. I, like many others, am not even familiar with these BB? turbos.

Do you think your single might have a downpipe that will Y-out into the stock (or any existing aftermarket) DP-back exhaust? Looks like any stock/aftermarket FMIC and exhaust will be able to remain.. just a new intake, turbo, wastegate/s, manifold, and downpipe (and flash)?

This setup might actually make some power

Yes, we are going to Y back into the stock cat-back.

[akira42]

Why not? If applying FI to an NA motor cost ~$8k, why would the 335i's setup be the same, the kit shouldn't be as elaborate as the NA kit's for the 350z.

Originally Posted by ar design

If you are expecting a kit that costs less than 8-10k, IE 5k, you are not being realistic.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by akira42

Why not? If applying FI to an NA motor cost ~$8k, why would the 335i's setup be the same, the kit shouldn't be as elaborate as the NA kit's for the 350z.

When multiple kits come to market, I'm sure you'll see the fat cut off of some of these prices. Until then, though, first manufacturers to market are going to want to recoup as much of that capital as possible before dropping prices....

[akira42]

Yea, i guess i don't know what goes into the kit. Sounds like a $5k kit would make the assumption that you've upgraded your IC, DP's, etc. And $8k suggest that the said parts would be included. $8k for a new IC, DP's, AIT, etc would be a good price. Throw in a meth kit and $8k is money!

Originally Posted by ragingclue

When multiple kits come to market, I'm sure you'll see the fat cut off of some of these prices. Until then, though, first manufacturers to market are going to want to recoup as much of that capital as possible before dropping prices....

[Slidewayz]

The parts aren't that expensive and slapping a bigger turbo on a car that came turbo from the factory isn't as hard as going from NA to turbo.

Nonetheless, someone is putting probably at least 300+ hours of time into fabbing intakes, manifolds, fiddling with tuning, testing, fixing stuff that blows up, etc.

So, considering the cost of parts and labor, there could easily be $50k invested in bringing this to market.

Why shouldn't they try to get back their investment? If you're into it for $5k in parts and labor per kit (not unrealistic for a fancy twin-scroll snail), you'll have to sell MORE THAN 10 kits to get back your investment since there's labor on top to fulfill the orders. So, somewhere between 12-15 kits is probably break even. THEN you get to start turning a profit.

These days, who's got an extra $50k of working capital sitting around they can afford to keep tied up for 6 months?

[Zeph]

Nobody is going to design an elaborate kit hoping to sell 15 and profit $5k total off the last 3... They design it to hopefully sell 100 the 1st year and maybe 100 more over the next 2-3 years. You pay off your R&D with those first 200 kits, starting with almost 100% of the "profit" at first and gradually declining that % over time. Kinda like interest on a house. Now granted this is all just on paper as they won't actually pay cash to R&D like it is another company... that is just how the math is done.

R&D might add $1k to the cost of the first, say, 50-100 kits. Anything over that which is "profit" meaning above the cost to actually manufacture the kits is going to the company to pay paychecks, admin, etc. just like anything else.

Who really knows for sure, but point is if they plan to recover ALL the R&D on 10-15 kits then the price will end up so high they won't sell any.

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by Slidewayz

The parts aren't that expensive and slapping a bigger turbo on a car that came turbo from the factory isn't as hard as going from NA to turbo.

That's only true if you are swapping a turbo or wastegate or some other part, and keeping the rest.




If you remove the stock twins and replace them with aftermarket COTS turbos, you're talking :

- One air charge instead of two going to the IC, so new pipes to IC.

- One pipe going to turbo inlet instead of two, so new intake, full-length replacement.

- New hot-sides, so totally new exhaust headers.

- Turbo exhaust is different than before, so completely new down pipes.

- Different wastegate operation and different air flow mean in-depth ECU re-mapping.

Even if you did twins, unless they mated *EXACTLY* like the stock ones, you'd be re-doing the intake and exhaust regardless.


The only thing you can keep is the IC... and you'd probably want to replace that too.



A cheap upgrade would consist of a turbo swap with a set of turbos that mate the same way with the same physical dimensions at the mating surfaces.

Unless you're doing that, you're replacing so much stuff that it's not far from putting a turbo kit on an NA car.

The only thing an NA car would really want versus FI, is the compression dropped if it's not DI.

Originally Posted by Zeph

Good luck with the project AR, this has basically turned into a huge argument like the ASR turbo thread but realize it is just because we are all very interested and I guess "optomism" is hard to come by these days. Many people will mention the GT35R because AMS mentioned that as a perfect single which will supposedly reach max boost around 2400 RPM's and we all have been pitching tent ever since. I, like many others, am not even familiar with these BB? turbos.

AMS did not enlighten people to the 35r... it's pretty much a household name.

35r is a popular pick because :

1) ball bearing, so a momentary drop in oil pressure won't leave you re-building your turbo

2) oil and WATER cooled, so you can use BMW's built in water-cooling-after-shutdown instead of a turbo timer. And oh yeah, it runs cooler.

3) It's a well vetted turbo that's had proven results in the evo/sti crowd. You see the name thrown around a lot.

-scheherazade