[I335]

I think the difference here comes down to "Big Tom". Just how big is Tom?

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by scalbert

6AT Gearing Advantage.
115.38%
109.53%
108.07%
107.62%
97.73%
89.10%

I flipped it for you. Anyway, yes, the amount of torque applied to the ground increases by the gearing percentage (this is overall gearing). You may need to deduct a couple of percent gain though due to higher driveline losses in the 6AT. Even if it were only a 5% advantage, that is enough to control an outcome with all other things equal.

What also needs to be considered is that not all cars are equal when leaving the factory.

I understand your point with gearing advantage, and it does feel so at first 3 gears
However, every time i ran AT car from the roll (30-130mph) it was always dead-even in first 3 gears (where is the gearing advantage?)
Once in 4th i always pull away sligtly
This happend with a few runs with different AT cars, all stock
My only assumption here is that AT puts less power to the ground, so gearing is compensating for it
Unfortunately there is not enough gearing advantage in 4th to compensate power difference

[enrita]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Looks like some fun runs! I know you guys race often and it seems the result is different each time. Which is a good thing.

Couple thoughts: Enrico, are you running the 1.3 final map or 1.4 beta map? If it is the 1.4 beta that may explain things. BMS has been so focused on smoothness I think they have taken some top end off each map in the process. I will make sure it is put back and then some before 1.4 is finalized. What this means to you is to run one higher map than you otherwise might on 1.3 final, especially if you are facing a Stg 3 V3 that is likely at 16psi.

Mike

yeah Mike when I run with big Tom 1 month ago I was the one having the edge on the race. Was using there 1.3 map 6 94 octane. Both cars are running pretty even . I run map 8 today and car was pulling strong. Would be nice to see how that map performs against big Tom.

[Craig@SupremePower]

nice runs... hey the sun shines on a dogs ass every now and then!!

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

I understand your point with gearing advantage, and it does feel so at first 3 gears
However, every time i ran AT car from the roll (30-130mph) it was always dead-even in first 3 gears (where is the gearing advantage?)
Once in 4th i always pull away sligtly
This happend with a few runs with different AT cars, all stock
My only assumption here is that AT puts less power to the ground, so gearing is compensating for it
Unfortunately there is not enough gearing advantage in 4th to compensate power difference

I am guessing here, but I would bet the AT is a heavier transmission and therefore a little less efficient getting the power to the ground (this would be the norm). That is why the AT came with the shorter rear end gears (MT is like 3.02? where AT is like 3.56?). Something like that. Only AT "advantage" I have ever seen on any car is launching from a dead stop. If you can launch a manual and you can shift quickly and at the right RPM's, basically if you can DRIVE, you can negate the AT advantage. Up top the MT's always pull away.

[Craig@SupremePower]

suddenly this became an auto vs manual discussion... i guess it's perspective because i haven't seen any "advantage" to the 6sp other than those who have one saying its more fun, sorry man AT's are faster that doesn't mean you can't enjoy your manual!!

Originally Posted by Zeph

I am guessing here, but I would bet the AT is a heavier transmission and therefore a little less efficient getting the power to the ground (this would be the norm). That is why the AT came with the shorter rear end gears (MT is like 3.02? where AT is like 3.56?). Something like that. Only AT "advantage" I have ever seen on any car is launching from a dead stop. If you can launch a manual and you can shift quickly and at the right RPM's, basically if you can DRIVE, you can negate the AT advantage. Up top the MT's always pull away.

[GeorgiaTech335coupe]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I am guessing here, but I would bet the AT is a heavier transmission and therefore a little less efficient getting the power to the ground (this would be the norm). That is why the AT came with the shorter rear end gears (MT is like 3.02? where AT is like 3.56?). Something like that. Only AT "advantage" I have ever seen on any car is launching from a dead stop. If you can launch a manual and you can shift quickly and at the right RPM's, basically if you can DRIVE, you can negate the AT advantage. Up top the MT's always pull away.

Doesn't matter how good you can drive, you can't make up MPH. Stock ATs easily trap 1-2 mph higher than stock MTs. ATs are faster.

[cstavaru]

I am surprised everybody sais "wow, first time when cars with identical mods are compared". So since the cars have upgraded IC, DPs, etc. the completely different drivetrain (gearbox/gearing/diff gearing/drivetrain losses) doesn't matter ?

Every time someone compared 6MT to 6AT the automatic seemed significantly slower. There are more than 3 or 4 different threads on this forum comparing them. I would put the difference in this race on the gearbox difference.

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by scalbert

6AT Gearing Advantage.
115.38%
109.53%
108.07%
107.62%
97.73%
89.10%

I flipped it for you.

Have you accounted for the difference in differential gearing between the 6AT and 6MT or is this calculation only for the gearbox, in which case it would not be meaningful at all ?

[Craig@SupremePower]

where have you read this even once??

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I am surprised everybody sais "wow, first time when cars with identical mods are compared". So since the cars have upgraded IC, DPs, etc. the completely different drivetrain (gearbox/gearing/diff gearing/drivetrain losses) doesn't matter ?

Every time someone compared 6MT to 6AT the automatic seemed significantly slower. There are more than 3 or 4 different threads on this forum comparing them. I would put the difference in this race on the gearbox difference.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I am surprised everybody sais "wow, first time when cars with identical mods are compared". So since the cars have upgraded IC, DPs, etc. the completely different drivetrain (gearbox/gearing/diff gearing/drivetrain losses) doesn't matter ?

Every time someone compared 6MT to 6AT the automatic seemed significantly slower. There are more than 3 or 4 different threads on this forum comparing them. I would put the difference in this race on the gearbox difference.

They only compare 1/4 mile, where really the gearing in the 1st 3 gears makes up most of the difference for the AT. The fact that I keep mentioning top end (like 100+ MPH) doesn't seem to register. There are in fact MANY racing setups beyond the 1/4 mile.

In the OP both cars were supposed to be running about the same PSI right? That sounds to me like a fair comparison tune vs. tune because of the same mods, same octane, and same PSI... only difference was the actual tune at those parameters. Like some have said, maybe the JB3 was either 1 map too high/low or maybe it doesn't work as well without race gas.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335coupe

Doesn't matter how good you can drive, you can't make up MPH. Stock ATs easily trap 1-2 mph higher than stock MTs. ATs are faster.

First, 1/4mil results have nothing to do with this race, which is from the 2nd gear roll (not even 1st)
1/4 shows how good you launch and it's really first 3 gears (just going into 4th for split second)

Second, the only AT that traps better is Hotrods car, which is crazy, one off freak machine that runs god-knows-what (not your ordinary tune, i believe)
Otherwise, best traps are achieved by MT cars

What does it tell you?

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by Craig@SupremePower

suddenly this became an auto vs manual discussion... i guess it's perspective because i haven't seen any "advantage" to the 6sp other than those who have one saying its more fun, sorry man AT's are faster that doesn't mean you can't enjoy your manual!!

Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335coupe

Doesn't matter how good you can drive, you can't make up MPH. Stock ATs easily trap 1-2 mph higher than stock MTs. ATs are faster.

I'm glad the two of you are convinced, and this topic has been beaten to death. But not everyone agrees.

[Craig@SupremePower]

i respectfully completely disagree... in no way, shape or form is this the case from what i've seen or read but like you say its been beatin to death and frankly I don't care enough to get pissy about it on the internet!!

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

First, 1/4mil results have nothing to do with this race, which is from the 2nd gear roll (not even 1st)
1/4 shows how good you launch and it's really first 3 gears (just going into 4th for split second)

Second, the only AT that traps better is Hotrods car, which is crazy, one off freak machine that runs god-knows-what (not your ordinary tune, i believe)
Otherwise, best traps are achieved by MT cars

What does it tell you?

Originally Posted by 335lvr

I'm glad the two of you are convinced, and this topic has been beaten to death. But not everyone agrees.

[JoeyFiasco]

Originally Posted by I335

I think the difference here comes down to "Big Tom". Just how big is Tom?

good point, i think "big tom" is also carrying the camera man.

[Big Tom]

Originally Posted by enrita

yeah Mike when I run with big Tom 1 month ago I was the one having the edge on the race. Was using there 1.3 map 6 94 octane. Both cars are running pretty even . I run map 8 today and car was pulling strong. Would be nice to see how that map performs against big Tom.

In that race 1 month ago I did only have the UT set to 81%, so thats actually a bad comparison.

However, one strange thing is that you said you felt a big power increase with the new map compared to the old one before we did the race...

[GeorgiaTech335coupe]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

First, 1/4mil results have nothing to do with this race, which is from the 2nd gear roll (not even 1st)
1/4 shows how good you launch and it's really first 3 gears (just going into 4th for split second)

Second, the only AT that traps better is Hotrods car, which is crazy, one off freak machine that runs god-knows-what (not your ordinary tune, i believe)
Otherwise, best traps are achieved by MT cars

What does it tell you?

First off, why are you being a jackass and laughing? You can make a counter point in a respectful manner. Second, your own example talks of an AT with ZERO mods being faster than fully modded MTs. Does that help your point or mine? It's hard to see what's better on dragtimes as there are so many repeats of Hotrod, plus you have differences in mods and octane. Let's look at the math. You claim you go into 4th for a split second. Mathematically impractical, nearly impossible. In an AT 3rd gear ends at 99 mph, stock 335 ATs can trap up to 106. That means you are in 4 gear for 25% of the rest of the gear. That must be one fast car to get through ~25% of the rest of the gear in a split second. Modded 335 ATs are in 4th for at least half of the rest of the gear. So 4th gear is 100% applicable to the 1/4 mile. Have you thought about the speed at which the ATs shift? I'm willing to bet they are faster than any MT driver. What about boost drop off at shifts. The AT is much better at holding boost through the shift. Also, you say 1/4 mile shows how good you launch. Yes, you are right, your 1/4 ET shows how good you launch. I only referenced trap speed, which is barely affected by 60' time.

If you have a good counter point, I will be more than happy to entertain it.

OP, sorry for the OT.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

Have you accounted for the difference in differential gearing between the 6AT and 6MT or is this calculation only for the gearbox, in which case it would not be meaningful at all ?

Overall gearing; transmission ratios multiplied by the rear end ratio.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Craig@SupremePower

sorry man AT's are faster that doesn't mean you can't enjoy your manual!!

I concur. Sometimes I regret that I did not get the automatic; especially when stuck in traffic. But when on a nice stretch of open road, that never crosses my mind (even though I might be a bit slower).

[GeorgiaTech335coupe]

I'm going to start a new thread about MT vs AT so this one doesn't get derailed. AndreyATC and whomever else that wishes, please participate. I will be giving my technical analysis of the advantages. All counter points are welcome. If my reasoning is flawed I want to know as I'm always striving to learn more. Look for the thread.

[AndreyATC]

^ Good point
Thread did go OT, but i guess this was one of the big variables between cars

BTW, you misinterpreted my 4th gear comment
I meant, in 1/4 run, car shirfts into 4th gear and barely uses it, because 1/4 ends soon after you go into 4th, that's all
I wasnt talking about shift times
Also, i never mentioned anything regarding stock AT vs modded MT
I'm stock and was talking only regarding my real life experience (race on the airfield)

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by enrita

yeah Mike when I run with big Tom 1 month ago I was the one having the edge on the race. Was using there 1.3 map 6 94 octane. Both cars are running pretty even . I run map 8 today and car was pulling strong. Would be nice to see how that map performs against big Tom.

That makes sense. "Big Tom" seem to be a serious competitor so you need to really be on your game. Matching boost levels will help, but the main problem in your first run is the horrible start. If you give up just a second on the start it will turn in to a big margin fast. So drink a Red Bull next time before the runs. In the second run you start better (but still behind), and he does not gain much ground at all up to 155 mph.

Mike