[I335]

Originally Posted by Belarus

Why do you have to continuously intervene into every post that mentions a Tune to justify your Tune , even when no one is bushing it vs. providing their view and reasons for making a switch, which OP made it very clear based on his thought process behind it.

BobS sorry if I'm out of line since it's your thread. It's just becoming irritating, that you can't read a thread started by a forum member about their experience with tunes with out Vishnu organization jumping on it like flies on the sh!t.

Very nice to see Belarus on his high horse here - a great post to get folks all in a huff. Couple things from my perspective...

#1 - this is a discussion forum - anyone can post pretty much anything they want. Someone is reviewing Shiv's product - why shouldn't he chime in? I think it's great that he does, and he's certainly being very graceful about it here. The forum would be a ton more boring if this wasn't allowed and this is what forums are for.

#2 - I've driven a Procede, a JB car, and I currently have a GIAC stage 1 tune. Just like Rob said, the Procede car felt a bit faster but it didn't feel as smooth as GIAC to me either. Personally, I prefer smoothness over a couple of ponies and GIAC is really stock-like smoothness to me and Procede is not. I've had the same experience with JB and SSTT - they're all great but ONLY GIAC feels stock to me. Graphs are one thing, but they don't substitute for real world experiencing.

#3 - I like both Terry and Shiv and respect them for their contribution to the car enthusiast world. Bringing their piggies up to where they're at just amazes me and even better, they continue to improve them all the time, and even better than that, we're the beneficiaries! I prefer to have these guys chime in to threads like this as this is what our hobby is all about - discussing, debating, challenging each other, and having fun. Without these guys none of that stuff would be here.

[MKE_M3]

Originally Posted by supracg

Ya Im curious if you had some type of issue, the PROcede is easily smoother and more driveable than stock for corners etc.

Ditto

[BzzzBom]

Originally Posted by jdemetry

Ditto

When the GIAC map switcher and stage 2 is available, I'm think the piggyback tunes will significantly drop in price. It will be a win-win for the consumer.

Are Terry and Shiv working on flash tunes?

[techlogik]

To each his own. Some people don't want to mess with, or have the tecnical aptitude to install their own JB/Procede unit. That is fine, that is why GIAC/AA etc have their options, they tailor it for peoplel like you.

I personally have the exact opposite attitude and viewpoint as the TS. I want the ability to completely remove the tune and have ZERO trace of it being there.

AA/GIAC can all claim that it is invisible to the dealer and such...but the fact is, when they flash your DME, it likely will be overwritten, unless they have other options compared to what Audi had with GIAC. My Audi if it got flashed, would get over written, and they would charge a fee to reflash it, plus shipping/downtime etc...what a mess to say the least.

Lastly, your warranty will be voided as fast as a piggy back with the DME flash as well, bet on that. If you let it slip or they discover it...good night Irene for your warranty.

Might as well learn to do it yourself, like a Procede Auto version, you install it, forget it, unless you need to go to the dealer, then remove it. Learn something new, it is fun!

[I335]

Originally Posted by techlogik

I personally have the exact opposite attitude and viewpoint as the TS. I want the ability to completely remove the tune and have ZERO trace of it being there.

It would take your tech about .5 secs to see you've been messing around in the ECU box with a quick look. It takes work to see if you have a GIAC tune...

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by I335

It would take your tech about .5 secs to see you've been messing around in the ECU box with a quick look. It takes work to see if you have a GIAC tune...

How exactly is that? By the sloppy work and lack of attention to detail some people put into the operation while swapping?

[lyndon_h]

Originally Posted by BzzzBom

Are Terry and Shiv working on flash tunes?

Whyould they be working on flash tunes when their current products (particularly the Procede) offer a lot of features that can't be duplicated with a flash. A lot of you have the attitude that a flash is theoretically better, however I'm not seeing it, especially when you consider all of the features available with the piggies.

Disclaimer: typing on a phone

[roadkillrob]

Originally Posted by techlogik

How exactly is that? By the sloppy work and lack of attention to detail some people put into the operation while swapping?

Just removing the bolts one time puts enough wear on them to be noticed, some things maybe not bad in the correct spots exactly, like some of the holes are slotted, so if you don't put the bolt exactly where it was, it leaves a mark in a new place on the plastic. Once in the ECU box, wires are moved around, marks on the plastic locks and on the pins from extraction - tape residue etc. Put a piggyback in 1 time and I bet 90% of the time it would be easy to tell it had been done!

[I335]

^ Yup, exactly...

[Gen_E92]

Originally Posted by roadkillrob

Just removing the bolts one time puts enough wear on them to be noticed, some things maybe not bad in the correct spots exactly, like some of the holes are slotted, so if you don't put the bolt exactly where it was, it leaves a mark in a new place on the plastic. Once in the ECU box, wires are moved around, marks on the plastic locks and on the pins from extraction - tape residue etc. Put a piggyback in 1 time and I bet 90% of the time it would be easy to tell it had been done!

Are you saying those bolts or stuff in ECU box are never meant to be removed or tampered with? Even techs have open the ECU box to inspect it or for other reasons, right? So I don't see how just a mark can tell you anything Unless there's something broken, but then even techs can break stuff which I've seen.

IMO there's no way a dealer can use that BS against you if the ECU box is reasonably tidy when they decide to look at it. With flash, every time your progman gets updated, you have to drive to the shop, and pay for reflash. Removing/re-installing a piggyback is extremely easy once you do it a few times, and it takes WAY less time than getting a reflash.

[jblackwell]

Originally Posted by roadkillrob

Just removing the bolts one time puts enough wear on them to be noticed, some things maybe not bad in the correct spots exactly, like some of the holes are slotted, so if you don't put the bolt exactly where it was, it leaves a mark in a new place on the plastic. Once in the ECU box, wires are moved around, marks on the plastic locks and on the pins from extraction - tape residue etc. Put a piggyback in 1 time and I bet 90% of the time it would be easy to tell it had been done!

Replacing all 8 bolts (6 for the cabin filter, 2 for the cowl) = $2.00

[OpenFlash]

Noticing that the dme box has been opened or that some screwed have wear marks isn't sufficient grounds for a warranty void. Or even a singular warranty claim denial. But a wrong check sum, different rom image or an implausible flash counter is. Because that constitutes 100% proof of a tune. Not trying to incite a debate here. Just saying....

[BobS]

Originally Posted by I335

Very nice to see Belarus on his high horse here - a great post to get folks all in a huff. Couple things from my perspective...

#1 - this is a discussion forum - anyone can post pretty much anything they want. Someone is reviewing Shiv's product - why shouldn't he chime in? I think it's great that he does, and he's certainly being very graceful about it here. The forum would be a ton more boring if this wasn't allowed and this is what forums are for.

#2 - I've driven a Procede, a JB car, and I currently have a GIAC stage 1 tune. Just like Rob said, the Procede car felt a bit faster but it didn't feel as smooth as GIAC to me either. Personally, I prefer smoothness over a couple of ponies and GIAC is really stock-like smoothness to me and Procede is not. I've had the same experience with JB and SSTT - they're all great but ONLY GIAC feels stock to me. Graphs are one thing, but they don't substitute for real world experiencing.

#3 - I like both Terry and Shiv and respect them for their contribution to the car enthusiast world. Bringing their piggies up to where they're at just amazes me and even better, they continue to improve them all the time, and even better than that, we're the beneficiaries! I prefer to have these guys chime in to threads like this as this is what our hobby is all about - discussing, debating, challenging each other, and having fun. Without these guys none of that stuff would be here.

Cool, nice to hear from another member who has driven both a GIAC and a procede car.....like I said, drive both and see what you think. I'm sure people will still have different opinions. Looks like i dont' have to get my right foot tuned afterall

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Noticing that the dme box has been opened or that some screwed have wear marks isn't sufficient grounds for a warranty void. Or even a singular warranty claim denial. But a wrong check sum, different rom image or an implausible flash counter is. Because that constitutes 100% proof of a tune. Not trying to incite a debate here. Just saying....

That's my point. What, the dealer never takes the air filter out to change it? Or the pan on top?

They would have no idea if some other tech was in there doing that stuff to leave bolt marks or was looking at some complaint.

Then if they did inquire, I would just look at them like WTF are you talking about..tune?!?! GTFO....where is the service manager or GM....haha...

[Gen_E92]

You'll do yourself a huge favor by building good relationship with your dealer/SA. This applies to both flash and piggyback users. My SA knows I'm tuned and doesn't give a shit about it. And there's mutual understanding that if I have any engine problem, I just have to remove my tune/mods to get it fixed under warranty. IMO they gain nothing by screwing you for no reason, they'll lose you as a customer and risk being badmouthed.

[mithiral67]

I was in my ecu box at around 2k miles cause I wanted to know what ECU i had, post or pre march 08 (i knew what I had, but needed to provde an A hole SA how wrong he was). Me having gone in there and looking at my ECU does not void my warranty, correct?

They need to prove I have been moding my car, which based on the very fact I was in the box does not support.

[timtech]

Originally Posted by roadkillrob

Just removing the bolts one time puts enough wear on them to be noticed, some things maybe not bad in the correct spots exactly, like some of the holes are slotted, so if you don't put the bolt exactly where it was, it leaves a mark in a new place on the plastic. Once in the ECU box, wires are moved around, marks on the plastic locks and on the pins from extraction - tape residue etc. Put a piggyback in 1 time and I bet 90% of the time it would be easy to tell it had been done!

Remember the DME shows REAL boost - which the flash knows about. You can see the real boost on the drive into the garage bay. If they see over 8, it's time to check the check sum of the ECU... Just to make sure who is paying the bill.

I would certainly be more worried about that then looking at the bolts. Heck, I wasn't tuned and I seen the bolts had marks on it when the dealer was going on a witch hunt on BMW's request to try to get out of warranty work.

So you are saying there is no other reason like having your air filter replaced at the 24 month mark?????

This is just silly. I think it's great that the OP likes his choice. I'm glad we live in a world where we are given choices.

[BzzzBom]

Originally Posted by lyndon_h

Whyould they be working on flash tunes when their current products (particularly the Procede) offer a lot of features that can't be duplicated with a flash. A lot of you have the attitude that a flash is theoretically better, however I'm not seeing it, especially when you consider all of the features available with the piggies.

Disclaimer: typing on a phone

..because if you look at the history with tuning, the piggybacks become extinct as the flashes get perfected and in common use. Check out Audis, Porches, etc.

[Belarus]

Originally Posted by I335

Very nice to see Belarus on his high horse here - a great post to get folks all in a huff. Couple things from my perspective...

#1 - this is a discussion forum - anyone can post pretty much anything they want. Someone is reviewing Shiv's product - why shouldn't he chime in? I think it's great that he does, and he's certainly being very graceful about it here. The forum would be a ton more boring if this wasn't allowed and this is what forums are for.

#2 - I've driven a Procede, a JB car, and I currently have a GIAC stage 1 tune. Just like Rob said, the Procede car felt a bit faster but it didn't feel as smooth as GIAC to me either. Personally, I prefer smoothness over a couple of ponies and GIAC is really stock-like smoothness to me and Procede is not. I've had the same experience with JB and SSTT - they're all great but ONLY GIAC feels stock to me. Graphs are one thing, but they don't substitute for real world experiencing.

#3 - I like both Terry and Shiv and respect them for their contribution to the car enthusiast world. Bringing their piggies up to where they're at just amazes me and even better, they continue to improve them all the time, and even better than that, we're the beneficiaries! I prefer to have these guys chime in to threads like this as this is what our hobby is all about - discussing, debating, challenging each other, and having fun. Without these guys none of that stuff would be here.

Thank you for welcoming me .

#1. Gracefull:

"Looks like you needed to retune your right foot, not your engine" .... Yep that's graceful as ballerina.

"The neat stuff about this bit is that it is VERY easy to quantify what tune does what by simply logging throttle blade angle (with respect to applied throttle), ignition advance (with respect to ignition setpoint) and actual boost (with respect to boost target). The last bit (actual boost) is especially interesting because there is a time-based error as well (turbo lag) that needs to get analyzed as well".... It's not VERY easy to quantify, since there is a subjective human component of our butt "dyno" and personal preference on how our car we would like to behave.

IMHO more like damage control to avoid losing sales to competition. Vishnu organization has sufficient amount of threads started under this section for any OP to read about their product features, advances, what separates them from their competition and their goals to keep them ahead.

#2. Thank you for sharing your experience with the tunes you've tried, and sharing your personal experience and views, greatly appreciated by me.

#3. + 1

[ttomczak]

Originally Posted by roadkillrob

Just removing the bolts one time puts enough wear on them to be noticed, some things maybe not bad in the correct spots exactly, like some of the holes are slotted, so if you don't put the bolt exactly where it was, it leaves a mark in a new place on the plastic. Once in the ECU box, wires are moved around, marks on the plastic locks and on the pins from extraction - tape residue etc. Put a piggyback in 1 time and I bet 90% of the time it would be easy to tell it had been done!

Maybe, but this is one hell of an assumption, AND, they would have to prove it... It's now their "opinion" against the fact there is NOTHING there...

I doubt many would be willing to put their opinion up against having their dealership possibly end up in a court of law if the person whose warranty was voided was willing to go the extra mile...

[faded67]

Originally Posted by canesr1

Can you take GIAC into dealer and them not find out???? or does it have to be removed for warranty purposes??

I have recently taken my car into the dealer with an o2 sensor failing.
They scanned my keyfob and hooked up to the ODBII for diagnostics. There was no sign of the GIAC flash at all. They replaced the faulty o2 sensor and sent me on my way. The only way they will find out is if there is a more complicated issue that would require BMW to look at the DME software.

[Doug007]

I wonder if the "smoothness" or "stock like" feel of the GIAC is more due to the flattened torque curve than anything else. The shape of the curve seems a bit closer to the stock curve, although not by much. The PROcede curve certainly is smooth. It's just never flat.

The biggest difference seems to be the area from 3000 to 4500 rpm where PROcede has a clear torque peak then steady decline, while the GIAC reaches a lower maximum value but maintains a steady torque over that rpm range. Both start the inevitable decline after 5000 rpm.

I know BMW worked very hard to give this engine a normally aspirated feel as this was their first turbocharged engine in nearly 30 years and the feel of their N/A inline 6s is part of the BMW brand. I'm sure they made some compromises in engine output to achieve this feel, just as they did using small turbos to ensure nearly lagless operation.

However, for a tune, i'll gladly take the extra 23 lb*ft of torque in the mid rpm range. I have my PROcede on the way and will have to feel it for myself, but purely from looking at the charts, I'll take the PROcede.