[Doug007]

No doubt tubing is not all created equal. I still don't like the idea of running it under the car all the way from the trunk.

Bottom line, this is the Cobb AP of meth kits. Easy to install/remove but not the cheapest out there. You get what you pay for.

Adding 122whp in under an hour simply cannot be beat.

Just watch how the number of N54 meth user's explodes...

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

I hit >5psi often at about half throttle... semi-spirited driving, but not all out. I would say 4 to 7psi would be pretty typical for me at only 11.5psi max.

thats great, your tune is mapped out to run 4-7psi from the factory

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Doug007

No doubt tubing is not all created equal. I still don't like the idea of running it under the car all the way from the trunk.

Bottom line, this is the Cobb AP of meth kits. Easy to install/remove but not the cheapest out there. You get what you pay for.

Adding 122whp in under an hour simply cannot be beat.

Just watch how the number of N54 meth user's explodes...

explodes and meth should not be used together. You realize you can do the same exact thing right? You need a pump, a devils own tank tap, line, nozzle, solenoid. Or you can just look up mr.5s set up lol.

Running meth in a container that sits 5 inches from glowing turbos......hmmmm, ill stick with my 2.5 gallon tank sitting in the trunk.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

thats great, your tune is mapped out to run 4-7psi from the factory

That's what you aren't quite understanding. You are operating under the assumption that if the DME is "mapped" for a given boost level, there is no benefit to spray meth. This is incorrect. Spraying a very fine, low volume mist at low boost pressures will make the car run better even with no changes to fuel/boost/timing mapping. Especially when transitioning to higher boost pressures. Especially in warmer conditions and periods of heatsoak when a stock tuned car is even struggling. "Mapping" a DME for any given condition will only insure optimal performance within the constraints the conditions allow. The next step to improving drivability is to change the conditions. Which is exactly what a good PWM meth system can do. That's the advantage behind a wide dynamic range and immediate response. You never get those spikes of reality, so to speak.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

I hit >5psi often at about half throttle... semi-spirited driving, but not all out. I would say 4 to 7psi would be pretty typical for me at only 11.5psi max.

OK, and where is the typical basic pressure switch set to spray? I have mine set at 11 psi. I almost never engage meth at part throttle. In real world driving, do you see a need for small amounts of meth to spray at part throttle under 11 psi?

When you go WOT, the IATs near instantly drop to ambient or better. With the stock FMIC, the IATs will creep fairly rapidly on a sustained run, and with an aftermarket FMIC, they damn near flatline deep into 4th gear before starting to creep upwards into 5th.

And oops, if you spray at part throttle, the DME will make the proper adjustments, as rare as that occurrence may be.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

That's what you aren't quite understanding. You are operating under the assumption that if the DME is "mapped" for a given boost level, there is no benefit to spray meth. This is incorrect. Spraying a very fine, low volume mist at low boost pressures will make the car run better even with no changes to fuel/boost/timing mapping. Especially when transitioning to higher boost pressures. Especially in warmer conditions and periods of heatsoak when a stock tuned car is even struggling. "Mapping" a DME for any given condition will only insure optimal performance within the constraints the conditions allow. The next step to improving drivability is to change the conditions. Which is exactly what a good PWM meth system can do. That's the advantage behind a wide dynamic range and immediate response. You never get those spikes of reality, so to speak.

So you are saying I will gain 2.75 hp at 4psi when I am trying to accelerate from 60 to 65 on the highway? That my friend is the reality of it.
My reality, I push the gas pedal a fraction of a mm further down lol. Or I will just hit 6psi and meth will turn on, and the ecu will manage the af ratio before you can even think about whats going

Can you post logs of this? I will then replicate those logs and we can compare.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by themyst

OK, and where is the typical basic pressure switch set to spray? I have mine set at 11 psi. I almost never engage meth at part throttle. In real world driving, do you see a need for small amounts of meth to spray at part throttle under 11 psi?

When you go WOT, the IATs near instantly drop to ambient or better. With the stock FMIC, the IATs will creep fairly rapidly on a sustained run, and with an aftermarket FMIC, they damn near flatline deep into 4th gear before starting to creep into 5th.

And oops, if you spray at part throttle, the DME will make the proper adjustments, as rare as that occurrence may be.

Please read my last post and the second part to my big post on page 2. You and clap are operating under incorrect assumption that spraying meth at part throttle has no benefit. This is absolutely untrue and easy to quantify/demonstrate. I understand that neither of you have any tuning experience when it comes to constant pressure methanol systems. So perhaps you should be open to the idea that there are things that both of you will learn/experience as time goes by. I've had no experience myself until relatively recently so this is not an insult aimed at either of you.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Please read my last post and the second part to my big post on page 2. You and clap are operating under incorrect assumption that spraying meth at part throttle has no benefit. This is absolutely untrue and easy to quantify/demonstrate. I understand that neither of you have any tuning experience when it comes to constant pressure methanol systems. So perhaps you should be open to the idea that there are things that both of you will learn/experience as time goes by. I've had no experience myself until relatively recently so this is not an insult aimed at either of you.

Can you post a log and tell me what the benafit of spraying meth at 4psi while im trying to go from 60 to 65mph? The engine is not dropping timing, the af are in check, the boost is in check so what are you gaining? a fraction of a degree in intake temps? That might be worth it to you, but to me I could honestly care less, because if i go over 6psi I will demolish those intake temps and the ecu will NOT bog down.

[Syndicategt]

Originally Posted by Clap135

So you are saying I will gain 2.75 hp at 4psi when I am trying to accelerate from 60 to 65 on the highway? That my friend is the reality of it.
My reality, I push the gas pedal a fraction of a mm further down lol. Or I will just hit 6psi and meth will turn on, and the ecu will manage the af ratio before you can even think about whats going

Can you post logs of this? I will then replicate those logs and we can compare.

You have to realize, the everyday-average-guy just toying around in the streets may not notice the difference btw the two systems or 0.1 vs 0.01 spray delay. But those of us chasing the magical 10 number at the 1320 means a lot. You can make this argument on other components with our cars, so I will always take the one which gives me even the slightest advantage.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Syndicategt

You have to realize, the everyday-average-guy just toying around in the streets may not notice the difference btw the two systems or 0.1 vs 0.01 spray delay. But those of us chasing the magical 10 number at the 1320 means a lot. You can make this argument on other components with our cars, so I will always take the one which gives me even the slightest advantage.

heres the thing, shiv already said there is not different if you are going for 10s btwn my basic kit and his pwm kit....So I don't see your point. Autos will spray during a shift, if your a manual, you sure as hell are staying above 6psi due to quick shifting, so where exactly are you gaining anything with this kit outside from the weight reduction via wallet?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

So you are saying I will gain 2.75 hp at 4psi when I am trying to accelerate from 60 to 65 on the highway? That my friend is the reality of it.
My reality, I push the gas pedal a fraction of a mm further down lol.

Can you post logs of this? I will then replicate those logs and we can compare.

Does your car drive considerably better at part throttle in the winter on race gas or in the middle of summer running pump gas? Because that is effectively the difference the engine sees when running meth at partial throttle. As much as you chose to ignore it, it's just not about running at WOT. If you feel no difference between the two scenarios, then you have the best meth kit for you.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Does your car drive considerably better at part throttle in the winter on race gas or in the middle of summer running pump gas? Because that is effectively the difference the engine sees when running meth at partial throttle. As much as you chose to ignore it, it's just not about running at WOT. If you feel no difference between the two scenarios, then you have the best meth kit for you.

Actually my car drives the same when I daily drive it at 4psi. Timing is exactly the same, boost is exactly the same, af is exactly the same. The pwm kit wont do shit misting nothing into the track when outside temps are 100. I will hit 100 you will hit 99....whats the gain here?

Please do a detailed log of this. Show boost/timing/intake temps while spraying at 4-5psi. I will then replicate that log and show and Ill bet you anythign you want, you will NOT be able to see a difference

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by Doug007

The recent puddle under LostMarine's car was enough to convince me of this.

You dont know what you are talking about. He was using cheap tubing from Home Depot not meant for methanol.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

You dont know what you are talking about. He was using cheap tubing from Home Depot not meant for methanol.

I already covered this lol. Seriously I challenge shiv to post part throttle logs of this magical kit. We can compare the results

Its awesome when he can't delete my posts, because he know brought up his kit in MY methanol thread.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Actually my car drives the same when I daily drive it at 4psi. Timing is exactly the same, boost is exactly the same, af is exactly the same. The pwm kit wont do shit misting nothing into the track when outside temps are 100. I will hit 100 you will hit 99....whats the gain here?

If you drop IATs by 30F and hold all other things equal (timing, fuel, afr, boost), your engine will make more power. Spool up will also be quicker. Even just to 4psi. This is why THE REST OF THE WORLD notices that their cars drive better on a cold night than a hot summer day. I always knew you were unique

I'll be happy to post up logs that I'll be taking this weekend. I'll a casual drive cycle (no high boost) running meth and another with it disabled. You can compare AITs. And if you believe in the Ideal Gas Law (albeit in an open system), maybe even you will agree that the engine is happier and making more power with meth.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

If you drop IATs by 30F and hold all other things equal (timing, fuel, afr, boost), your engine will make more power. Spool up will also be quicker. Even just to 4psi. This is why THE REST OF THE WORLD notices that their cars drive better on a cold night than a hot summer day. I always knew you were unique

Post logs, my kit turns on at 6psi and spray a hell of alot more fluid without any form of bogging, so who will have low Iats again? I am going to go with me lol. I am not unique, you said I am awesome, lets play, post logs.

30 degree intake drop at 4psi LMAO, you cant be dumb enough to actually think I believe that. How long do you plan on being at part throttle for? 2 miles? at a constant 4psi racing a prius?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Please read my last post and the second part to my big post on page 2. You and clap are operating under incorrect assumption that spraying meth at part throttle has no benefit. This is absolutely untrue and easy to quantify/demonstrate. I understand that neither of you have any tuning experience when it comes to constant pressure methanol systems. So perhaps you should be open to the idea that there are things that both of you will learn/experience as time goes by. I've had no experience myself until relatively recently so this is not an insult aimed at either of you.

I'm not saying there is NO benefit, I am merely saying nobody under part-throttle conditions is doing so for max power on the street. And I still don't get how this PWM meth kit is far beyond what a progressive controller can do, other than the atomization properties, not even beginning to discuss how worthless spraying meth at part throttle really is to begin with.

Ok let's talk theoretical since all we have to go off your PWM meth kit is one dyno sheet.

Your charge temps stay at a relatively constant level with the minute amounts of methanol you're spraying at low boost levels that don't require it, right? That's what you are touting to be such a superior function compared to the current offerings by the run-of-the-mill water injection vendors?

OK, when you go WOT, which is pretty much the only real time you need meth, what happens?

Your IATs drop to ambient or better, immediately reflecting benefits you tout at part throttle, you're feeding extra fuel through the charge to suppress knock and provide the extra fueling needed to support the increased boost target.

Why do we install water injection systems? To increase the effective octane, and suppress knock by cooling the charge temperatures. Do we need either at part throttle?

I have yet to see a log of anyone knocking at part throttle at the low boost levels you're referencing your PWM meth kit to be beneficial. If you have some logs to show us that indicate knock at part throttle (<5 psi) I would love to see. I would also retract all statements I have made if I can show a part-throttle Procede log that can clearly show real-world benefit.

I'm sure this setup you're touting is a fantastic kit, being driven by the Procede itself.

The point I'm trying to communicate is in real-world street driven conditions, the touted benefits of your Procede-driven meth kit are marginal at best.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

If you drop IATs by 30F and hold all other things equal (timing, fuel, afr, boost), your engine will make more power. Spool up will also be quicker. Even just to 4psi. This is why THE REST OF THE WORLD notices that their cars drive better on a cold night than a hot summer day. I always knew you were unique

I'll be happy to post up logs that I'll be taking this weekend. I'll a casual drive cycle (no high boost) running meth and another with it disabled. You can compare AITs. And if you believe in the Ideal Gas Law (albeit in an open system), maybe even you will agree that the engine is happier and making more power with meth.

See previous post. IATs immediately drop to ambient or better upon going WOT. Do you heatsoak immensely at part throttle or find it a detriment in a real-world drag race and/or highway WOT pull?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Doug007

No doubt tubing is not all created equal. I still don't like the idea of running it under the car all the way from the trunk.

Bottom line, this is the Cobb AP of meth kits. Easy to install/remove but not the cheapest out there. You get what you pay for.

Adding 122whp in under an hour simply cannot be beat.

Just watch how the number of N54 meth user's explodes...

Wait did you just say the cobb is better then the procede but you are praising a "top of the line" meth kit with a tune that is below the top of the line tune? That just sounds wierd.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by themyst

See previous post. IATs immediately drop to ambient or better upon going WOT. Do you heatsoak immensely at part throttle or find it a detriment in a real-world drag race and/or highway WOT pull?

In order to drop 30 degree during cruising you will need to spray so much fluid that you wont have any left when its time to floor the car.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by themyst

The point I'm trying to communicate is in real-world street driven conditions, the touted benefits of your Procede-driven meth kit are marginal at best.

That, to put it politely as possible, is your ill-informed opinion based upon absolutely no first-hand experience. I know you defer to whatever Clap claims. But rest assured, he is in the same boat as you. Let's see what people say as they retrofit their variable pressure systems with PWM hardware. I don't expect you to take my word for it. But perhaps the first hand experience from others will carry more weight. Until then, we can agree to disagree.

Shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

In order to drop 30 degree during cruising you will need to spray so much fluid that you wont have any left when its time to floor the car.

Who says cruising? You said real world. And real world is not always cruise. It's also about stopping at stoplights and seeing your IATs climb to 150F and then seeing what it takes for it to come back down to ambient. It's about driving in traffic at 25mph for minutes and then moderately accelerating towards a clear lane. And many other scenarios where IATs climb and aren't given much opportunity to come back down. Sure, you can certainly establish a carefully controlled driving environment to defend your stance. But that's not the question.