[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by themyst

Cobb = regular pps kit + Failsafe/boost bypass solenoid = win

You really do not know what that DME will do when the failsafe kicks with this solution. This is the exact reason I abandoned that style was abandoned early. If you look at my original Snow Performance post, you will see I did order the bypass solenoid. I had real concerns and I wasn't willing to take that risk. You are also reactively trying to fix a problem rather than proactively adjusting to methanol.

[Ulrich]

These threads remind me old time ago at school trying to define 'effective' & 'efficiency'....

Effective: To accomplish a goal
Efficiency: To accomplish a goal making adequate use of resources

While for some people these terms stands for the same, they do have very different meanings...

At the very end they're both 'effective': they give more power but only one system make adequate use of the resources in order to accomplish its goal...

AG

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by pwm@vishnu

Mike,

It appeared that you do not know different device responses differently to a PWM signal.

- A water pump with a high mass can not tell the difference between a 400Hz pwm signal and a variable 12V power supply. A PWM solenoid will respond well with a ~50Hz PWM signal but will not work well at all with a variable 12V power supply.

The best way to explain this by comparing the effect on a light bulb (pump) and a xexon strobe light (valve)…

Light bulb: low duty cycle = low light level = low pressure = low atomisation

Xenon Strobe light: low duty cycle = shorter burst of high intensity light = short burst of highly atomised spray.

I am still undecided if you are trying to fudge the issue to mislead the uninformed or you just don’t have a clue. As skydive commented, which is worse? I would first question the source from where you were fed before making you look more and more silly in public.

pwm

The only silly thing going on here is vendors making anonymous accounts to defend their meth kit. The PROcede isn't capable of running the pump via PWM due to the current requirements so its forced to PWM the solenoid instead. That's OK. But the PSO "holier than thou" attitude isn't winning over many fans and even many long time Vishnu supporters like clap135 and thymyst are rolling their eyes at it. Reason being it ignores the fact that the N54 has solid closed loop fueling and that hundreds have been running PPO kits for years without issue. Even the best argument for the PSO kit, that you can consume less methanol, is moot, because you just wind up using more gasoline instead.

Mike

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The only silly thing going on here is vendors making anonymous accounts to defend their meth kit.

It shouldn't bother you that pwm@vishnu is anonymous. But it should bother you that he (and others) routinely school you like a 3rd grader.

The PROcede isn't capable of running the pump via PWM due to the current requirements so its forced to PWM the solenoid instead.

Dumb. A $5 mosfet can be used to drive the pump. The reason we don't drive the pump is because that is a poor way to control meth flow. Same reason your DME doesn't keep the fuel injectors wide open and meter flow by adjusting fuel rail pressure.

That's OK. But the PSO "holier than thou" attitude isn't winning over many fans and even many long time Vishnu supporters like clap135 and thymyst are rolling their eyes at it. Reason being it ignores the fact that the N54 has solid closed loop fueling and that hundreds have been running PPO kits for years without issue.

Is correcting your blatant misinformation/lies what you interpret as having a "holier than thou" attitude? If so, fine by me and others.

Even the best argument for the PSO kit, that you can consume less methanol, is moot, because you just wind up using more gasoline instead.

Until they start dispensing methanol at every gas station, I'll stick with using it properly thank you.

[themyst]

for the 50th time, show us PWM vs PPS datalogs in equal conditions with equal methanol flow and we'll shut the fuck up. Until then, this is just a easy-install, expensive kit locked to the Procede.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by themyst

for the 50th time, show us PWM vs PPS datalogs in equal conditions with equal methanol flow and we'll shut the fuck up. Until then, this is just a easy-install, expensive kit locked to the Procede.

No need for profanity Ben. While I'm at it, I'll find some satellite pictures proving the earth isnt flat.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No need for profanity Ben. While I'm at it, I'll find some satellite pictures proving the earth isnt flat.

And there you go changing the subject again. Point proven.

[chingy24]

Originally Posted by themyst

And there you go changing the subject again. Point proven.

Dude your problem with Shiv is getting old. If you don't like his product then don't buy it. Why are you spending so much of your time attacking Shiv. People should research themselves and they don't need a person like you "fighting" their battles for them.

I also agree that Shiv should not waste anymore time debating with people that already have it set in their mind that his products are crap. Who knows Myst you may be right in some of your statements but come on may give it a rest.

Morale of the story, Myst stop the annoying post , Shiv get back to work and let your products do the talking for you.

Sorry for the rant, had a long day at work!!! lol

[zsapphire7]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No need for profanity Ben. While I'm at it, I'll find some satellite pictures proving the earth isnt flat.

You maybe wasting your time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

[themyst]

Originally Posted by chingy24

Dude your problem with Shiv is getting old. If you don't like his product then don't buy it. Why are you spending so much of your time attacking Shiv. People should research themselves and they don't need a person like you "fighting" their battles for them.

I also agree that Shiv should not waste anymore time debating with people that already have it set in their mind that his products are crap. Who knows Myst you may be right in some of your statements but come on may give it a rest.

Morale of the story, Myst stop the annoying post , Shiv get back to work and let your products do the talking for you.

Sorry for the rant, had a long day at work!!! lol

Actually, that was the first post I've made on the PWM meth kit in a few days. Understood, you own Vishnu products, but do you notice the title of this thread? And Shiv still has yet to deliver. Continue nuthugging!

[chingy24]

Originally Posted by themyst

Actually, that was the first post I've made on the PWM meth kit in a few days. Understood, you own Vishnu products, but do you notice the title of this thread? And Shiv still has yet to deliver. Continue nuthugging!

First of all I have had tried the "other" tunes that are available for this car and I just like this one becuase of their on going support they have given me. There product is far from perfect but in my mind it is the best one out on the market right now.

And another thing, Way to take the high road and call me names on the internet!!! Real mature man.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by chingy24

First of all I have had tried the "other" tunes that are available for this car and I just like this one becuase of their on going support they have given me. There product is far from perfect but in my mind it is the best one out on the market right now.

And another thing, Way to take the high road and call me names on the internet!!! Real mature man.

And what does this have to do with asking for PWM vs PPS logs?

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by chingy24

Dude your problem with Shiv is getting old. If you don't like his product then don't buy it. Why are you spending so much of your time attacking Shiv. People should research themselves and they don't need a person like you "fighting" their battles for them.

I also agree that Shiv should not waste anymore time debating with people that already have it set in their mind that his products are crap. Who knows Myst you may be right in some of your statements but come on may give it a rest.

Morale of the story, Myst stop the annoying post , Shiv get back to work and let your products do the talking for you.

Sorry for the rant, had a long day at work!!! lol

See that is the thing. If we don't ask for datalogged proof that this kit is better, the community will assume so since most of the community are (for lack of a better term) lemmings. Is it bad to ask for documented proof to go along with the long winded educational pieces they have placed into the community on why this kit is better? I think not, its a simple request.

[Focus]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

See that is the thing. If we don't ask for datalogged proof that this kit is better, the community will assume so since most of the community are (for lack of a better term) lemmings. Is it bad to ask for documented proof to go along with the long winded educational pieces they have placed into the community on why this kit is better? I think not, its a simple request.

I for one am quite sad that we still haven't gotten datalogged proof. Just arguements. It's kinda like when you catch a person lying and they get mad and just throw out words with no substance..

I wanted this kit, but without seeing actual proof of benefits it doesnt make any sense to purchase it .. sadly this will be the case for most buyers and i personally dont feel like the kit has enough benefit to warrant the price and that is why we haven't seen datalogged " comparisons " yet..

[chingy24]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

See that is the thing. If we don't ask for datalogged proof that this kit is better, the community will assume so since most of the community are (for lack of a better term) lemmings. Is it bad to ask for documented proof to go along with the long winded educational pieces they have placed into the community on why this kit is better? I think not, its a simple request.

I agree it is a request and that's it. Shiv is not obligated to do it. I would like to see the logs also because I am in the market for a meth kit, but people like Myst are trying to cry foul before anything has came out. Give it time and i am sure somebody will post logs.

As for you, Myst you accused me of a nuthugger and I was simply defending myslef with my last post. You are way to passionate about this subject. Sorry if I offended you but in the end it's just car parts man! Just have a drink and a

[sappersix]

I agree that seeing true apples-to-apples comparisons are good. Someone should do that.

However, as a business owner myself, I would not agree that it is a vendor's responsibility to provide such data. Ultimately, a vendor will highlight the strengths of his or her product. So in my mind, it's not reasonable to get angry when a vendor chooses to focus on R&D, selling, and support rather than laboratory type experiments. And frankly, given the nature of some folks on these forums, even if a vendor did a completely fair comparison between products, someone would find a fault with the process (whether intentional or not) and call foul.

Ergo, I think the most vocal proponents of a PPS v PWM log-fest should take up a collection from those who care and spend the time to do it themselves, as a service to the broader community, of course.

[Focus]

Originally Posted by sappersix

I agree that seeing true apples-to-apples comparisons are good. Someone should do that.

However, as a business owner myself, I would not agree that it is a vendor's responsibility to provide such data. Ultimately, a vendor will highlight the strengths of his or her product. So in my mind, it's not reasonable to get angry when a vendor chooses to focus on R&D, selling, and support rather than laboratory type experiments. And frankly, given the nature of some folks on these forums, even if a vendor did a completely fair comparison between products, someone would find a fault with the process (whether intentional or not) and call foul.

Ergo, I think the most vocal proponents of a PPS v PWM log-fest should take up a collection from those who care and spend the time to do it themselves, as a service to the broader community, of course.

Agreed, but that's like saying BMW doesnt have to detail to their customers why the 3 series is better then the a4. As a business owner leveraging the plus's of your product with factual numbers are key, smoke and mirror marketing is more gimick than anything.

Show the deficiency of the other product, and the efficiency of yours. These are the times we live in.

[sappersix]

Not trying to belabor this point, just a clarification.

Originally Posted by Focus

Agreed, but that's like saying BMW doesnt have to detail to their customers why the 3 series is better then the a4. As a business owner leveraging the plus's of your product with factual numbers are key, smoke and mirror marketing is more gimick than anything.

Yes, I agree 100%. I apologize if I implied that vendors are not responsible for providing factual data when explaining their products. I think they are and in this case, it seems to me that component specifications, product images, dyno outcomes and log outcomes have been provided. I was merely arguing that it's not a vendor's responsibility to provide data on competitors' products at the same level of rigor (and I might argue that any competitor would probably cry foul).

Originally Posted by Focus

Show the deficiency of the other product, and the efficiency of yours. These are the times we live in.

I hate negative selling, but yes, you are right.

[pwm@vishnu]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The PROcede isn't capable of running the pump via PWM due to the current requirements so its forced to PWM the solenoid instead.

Why tracking a bus fitted with a speed limiter instead of a single seater race car. One should be able predict the lap time without a log.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

...Reason being it ignores the fact that the N54 has solid closed loop fueling and that hundreds have been running PPO kits for years without issue. Even the best argument for the PSO kit, that you can consume less methanol, is moot, because you just wind up using more gasoline instead.

Mike

You do realise a close loop fuel cannot correct large swing afr on each individual cylinder. A single nozzle cannot guarantee even methanol delivery to each cylinder. A PPS system does not have the speed and dynamic range to match wide load change of an engine. This will cause greater disruption to good combustion.

Read this post before answering.

pwm

[drfrink24]

I don't want to read thru 85 posts.. can someone point me to specific post where apples to apples logging was performed to finally put this conjecture to rest?

[Focus]

Originally Posted by drfrink24

I don't want to read thru 85 posts.. can someone point me to specific post where apples to apples logging was performed to finally put this conjecture to rest?

404 LOGS NOT FOUND

[Focus]

Originally Posted by sappersix

I hate negative selling, but yes, you are right.

I'm sadly right, while it this shouldnt have to be the way things are done, it is. It's the economic climate we're in now. Look at what the wireless companies do to each other

Shiv,

I for one am someone truly interested in this kit do to ease of install. But on the same token saving an hour or so of time would not be worth $100's of dollars more over a competitors product if the proposed gain and " benefits " are minimal. Most consumers and people nowadays need to truly SEE the benefit that you speak of over the other conventional system, consider me one of them. If logs are posted showing the PWM system to be well worth it's money, i have $$ sitting in my account waiting to hit the submit button on the purchase screen. Until then not providing such logged differences between the 2 systems but only talking about how better yours is keeps someone like me who WANTS this system from you actually purchasing it. Todays purchaser needs to see facts and proof, that's one reason i chose to go to procede route because to do facts/testimonials/logs it seemed to be the best choice for what I want to do with my vehicle.

^ This is all i feel the masses are asking for...