[dzenno]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

I can buy the reasons why you don't have to run rich, but why are you making your new maps run richer and you upgraded your board to be able to run more fuel. It seems to be inconsistent to what you are saying. If its not necessary, than why do it or change?

Thank you great point...

and Josh, no its not a witch hunt...you're just a bit blinded by some marketing to see what's being said here...forget about 13 or 12 or 11 or 15AFR, with the necessary board change in rev2.5 you can hit 12AFR midrange without issues...rev2 can't do it...that conversation doesn't matter...what matters is that post shift on a heavy pull, say a drag race, you're shifting at 6200rpm typically on stock turbos and your next shift lands around 5-5.5k rpm...if you do it fast enough full boost, potentially 17-20psi is there almost instantly and I'll paypal you $10 if you can send me a log showing stable "targeted" AFR post shift...i'm not talking 12 AFR or 11AFR or whatever, I'm saying if you know you can target 12.5 or 13 post shift, or whatever the heck it is you've setup for that load/boost/rpm in your fuel maps, show me that it hits it right after the shift when full boost is there, that's all...log it and post it...Shiv is really doing his magic here, wow! congrats lol

Anyone else nuthugging just turn your boost up, especially those that have PWM or the "subpar" PPS meth kits running 75/25 mixes, just do a 3-4 shift, log it and post it here...good luck!

/ witch hunt

lol

[cwn23]

I think everyone should upgrade to 2.5 or even rev3 if you have rev2...Better to be safe with a wider range of fuel IMO

[happy4nk8er]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Thank you great point...

and Josh, no its not a witch hunt...you're just a bit blinded by some marketing to see what's being said here...forget about 13 or 12 or 11 or 15AFR, with the necessary board change in rev2.5 you can hit 12AFR midrange without issues...rev2 can't do it...that conversation doesn't matter...what matters is that post shift on a heavy pull, say a drag race, you're shifting at 6200rpm typically on stock turbos and your next shift lands around 5-5.5k rpm...if you do it fast enough full boost, potentially 17-20psi is there almost instantly and I'll paypal you $10 if you can send me a log showing stable "targeted" AFR post shift...i'm not talking 12 AFR or 11AFR or whatever, I'm saying if you know you can target 12.5 or 13 post shift, or whatever the heck it is you've setup for that load/boost/rpm in your fuel maps, show me that it hits it right after the shift when full boost is there, that's all...log it and post it...Shiv is really doing his magic here, wow! congrats lol

Anyone else nuthugging just turn your boost up, especially those that have PWM or the "subpar" PPS meth kits running 75/25 mixes, just do a 3-4 shift, log it and post it here...good luck!

/ witch hunt

lol

How's this look? Is this any better than what you were seeing Dzenno?

[boom]

Lol at the scaling on that graph. It might as well be blank.

[pits200]

Here is a log I took a few days ago, not sure if this shows you anything?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cwn23

I think everyone should upgrade to 2.5 or even rev3 if you have rev2...Better to be safe with a wider range of fuel IMO

With a Rev2, running any recent off-the-shelf map, AFR targets will be ~13.5:1 in the low end, tapering to ~12:1 up top as measured on a Dynojet via tailpipe sniffer. The only way that those targets will not be reached is if your fuel trims max out. And that will only happen if you have upgraded turbos and/or running too much boost.

The OP is running year old maps that didn't have as much open loop fueling in the low end. As a result, they OP is seeing just over 14:1 as measured on a Dynojet sniffer. Simply updating to a newer map/fw will make his car run richer if that is his goal.

A Rev2.5/3 isn't need to be "safe". Running 12.5:1 as opposed to 13.5:1 down low, all other things equal, will not make one stitch of difference on the dyno, on the road or by the seat of the pants. The fuel related advantage of the Rev2.5/3 is the ability to run even richer if your needs require it (high boost/big turbos/etc,.)

It's worth noting that with the current off-the-shelf maps, the rev.2 and rev2.5/3 will run the same AFR down low. It's just that the rev2.5/3 will allow for further enrichment if the user sees fit (via user tuning interface).

Shiv

[happy4nk8er]

Originally Posted by boom

Lol at the scaling on that graph. It might as well be blank.

Actually I think it looks better than most. Please post your logs that must be scaled beautifully, so I can learn something, other than lol...might as well be blank.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Thank you

Anyone else nuthugging just turn your boost up, especially those that have PWM or the "subpar" PPS meth kits running 75/25 mixes, just do a 3-4 shift, log it and post it here...good luck!

/ witch hunt

lol

One of my better AF logs.....looks pretty stable to me

Admitedly - they are not all quite this good.

Where do I spit?
.
.
.

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by Ilma

One of my better AF logs.....looks pretty stable to me

Admitedly - they are not all quite this good.

Where do I spit?

That log looked great. Not sure what all the fuss is about?

[dzenno]

well if we'll pick/choose logs just for arguments sake then we really can't discuss these things openly without bias...do 5 runs back to back, save the logs and post them...

hellblazer, try to do the same on your car...

Also, for a proper AFR graph, scale your AFR from 10 to 16 instead of 10 to 30 which is default...i wonder why shiv never changed this scaling default because 30 doesn't make sense for AFR...he was happy to change these defaults before to have clearer logs...

Even procede captured AFR logs are fine but external wideband logs hooked into the procede would show a more "exact" picture without any wideband bias cleanup calculations that in the past were very wrong

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by dzenno

well if we'll pick/choose logs just for arguments sake then we really can't discuss these things openly without bias...do 5 runs back to back, save the logs and post them...

hellblazer, try to do the same on your car...

Also, for a proper AFR graph, scale your AFR from 10 to 16 instead of 10 to 30 which is default...i wonder why shiv never changed this scaling default because 30 doesn't make sense for AFR...he was happy to change these defaults before to have clearer logs...

How do you change the scaling?

And all you are going to prove is that there is a bit of rich/lean swing post-shift with the piggies.

But we already know that.

Cobb does an exemplary job in this area.

Here is a log I ran yesterday.....and a lot of them look like this.

Yes, there is a bit of AF swing - doesn't look like the end of the world to me.

11.8 pre-shift to 11.5 post-shift and then there is a rich/lean swing from 10.4 to 12.5 that last 0.3 secs before stabilizing to 12.1/12.2
.
.
.

[dzenno]

I'm not trying to "prove" anything man LOL I've been pointing out something that can be refined...this particular glory log is just that, a glory AFR log..

I guarantee you that you won't get that reading with an external wideband...can you do a few runs back to back and post the logs...but don't pick/choose, just do some runs and post it you won't hurt Shiv's feelings I promise lol

what I can also guarantee you is that on rev2 the swing will be higher than rev2.5+

to scale it just select the channel on the bottom right where they're listed and I think its something like CTRL+D or something along those lines...it'll come up with a dialog to scale it differently...check with Shiv, not sure 100% forgot how to do it as its been a while

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by dzenno

I'm not trying to "prove" anything man LOL I've been pointing out something that can be refined...this particular glory log is just that, a glory AFR log..

I guarantee you that you won't get that reading with an external wideband...can you do a few runs back to back and post the logs...but don't pick/choose, just do some runs and post it you won't hurt Shiv's feelings I promise lol

what I can also guarantee you is that on rev2 the swing will be higher than rev2.5+

to scale it just select the channel on the bottom right where they're listed and I think its something like CTRL+D or something along those lines...it'll come up with a dialog to scale it differently...check with Shiv, not sure 100% forgot how to do it as its been a while

OK...thanks Dzenno!

BTW - none of my logs are glory logs.

They are all the same and meant for me to monitor performance only.
Posting them on here is secondary.

The sister to that log I posted above can be found here http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=29
Taken a few minutes apart on Sunday.

Bear in mind that the majority of us are not as hardcore as you are

I am not about to go out and purchase a set of widebands to wire in.

I don't even have a set of downpipes

[dzenno]

Running 17psi at 6k rpm on stock turbos and stock downpipes is really bad for your turbos...COBB has measured the actual backpressure there with probes and its 3.5-4 times higher with the stock exhaust than the pressure at the intake manifold past 5200rpm..so your 17psi at 6k rpm is aroun 68psi of backpressure...don't do it or do it and get RBs soon

As for widebands, why do you think I got them? lol I wanted to know what my true AFR was and not trust the calculated AFRs which at the time I did this were "calculated" up to 1.5 points richer than actual...if I didn't do that there would be no recalibration by Shiv and everyone would still be running rev2 with the same f*ed up AFR calculation...you seem to like data and log quite often like me, just get a wideband in there, AFR is only the most critical parameter of how your tune is doing...it can be had pretty cheap man and Ivo can hook it up for you in no time..

[Skydive]

Dzenno,

You keep changing your argument to fit your hypothesis in spite of the data being shared. You asked for the data. You got the data. It doesn't show what you hoped, so you keep asking for more data. (It's hysterical!) You claim to have observed this in reams of your own data... so why don't you share that data instead of trying to extract your proof from everyone else's data?

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Skydive

Dzenno,

You keep changing your argument to fit your hypothesis in spite of the data being shared. You asked for the data. You got the data. It doesn't show what you hoped, so you keep asking for more data. (It's hysterical!) You claim to have observed this in reams of your own data... so why don't you share that data instead of trying to extract your proof from everyone else's data?

LOL First of all its not an argument, second of all I'm not "changing" anything...go do a few runs 3-4 shift at around 6200rpm and post some AFR logs scaled properly...i've got tons of logs, Shiv's got them too, you're the only one that seems to want to argue actually without posting logs...i also don't have the procede anymore so can't show you the "latest" and if I posted something that was a rev2.5 and was a couple months old I'm sure you'd come back and say hey that's just RB turbos and your car or something along those lines...just LOG IT

[OpenFlash]

He's just looking for refinement

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Running 17psi at 6k rpm on stock turbos and stock downpipes is really bad for your turbos...COBB has measured the actual backpressure there with probes and its 3.5-4 times higher with the stock exhaust than the pressure at the intake manifold past 5200rpm..so your 17psi at 6k rpm is aroun 68psi of backpressure..

So what is that same measurement with aftermarket downpipes?

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

He's just looking for refinement

I don't know why I care this much...

Skydive, here's a log...i have at least only 100s more of them, how many more would you like? This log has only 12psi of boost at the point I highlighted, 14.8 AFR and 12 degrees of advance...no, there's nothing wrong with that LOL



Shiv, why the sarcasm..should I post some emails we had where you're trying to work this out and the logs I've sent you and your comments about needing to work on trims to work this out? What was needed to be worked out back then when there's nothing to work out and worry about? Why bother?? I have quite a lengthy email convo but I'd rather not go there...that's just stupid...

If anyone wants to know more, plug a laptop in and log your own car...this is getting pretty stupid at this point

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Ilma

So what is that same measurement with aftermarket downpipes?

I forget what it is exactly but you can check with Cobb if you like..not a heck of a lot better...i know that to be on the safe side ideally it should be "less" than 2.5 times of what the intake manifold pressure is

[themyst]

Originally Posted by dzenno

LOL First of all its not an argument, second of all I'm not "changing" anything...go do a few runs 3-4 shift at around 6200rpm and post some AFR logs scaled properly...i've got tons of logs, Shiv's got them too, you're the only one that seems to want to argue actually without posting logs...i also don't have the procede anymore so can't show you the "latest" and if I posted something that was a rev2.5 and was a couple months old I'm sure you'd come back and say hey that's just RB turbos and your car or something along those lines...just LOG IT

Lol that guy is just defensive when anyone dislike his tune of choice. No logs, no data, just a brave keyboard warrior with no substance.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by dzenno

I forget what it is exactly but you can check with Cobb if you like..not a heck of a lot better...i know that to be on the safe side ideally it should be "less" than 2.5 times of what the intake manifold pressure is

see I don't now about this. Yes manifold pressure is higher but turbos are NOT spinning as fast and you have higher efficiency with the reduced flow of stock piping... not sure which would be worse: rpm, reduced efficiency OR manifold pressure. The backpressure would increase CHT and reversion so more of an engine issue i would think. not sure, curious.

I actually dropped my boost post-6000rpm with DPs for the above reasons.