[themyst]

Originally Posted by SIKH335

Let's see If he will run me I've seen his boost max our at 20psi and I will pull my seats like him and rape the same boost out. If you have listened to his car in his video it sounds like shit. The problem is that he will not submit to an inspection Dyno and then a run.

Actually, two years ago, I've seen someone run 12.0@119 mph with ONLY a JB3, and downpipes with GT100 mixed with 93 octane... a manual at that on Kosei K1 / Hoosiers. He did unbolt his stock exhaust, which was my point, and yes it sounds terrible.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

You, are actually technically thinking along the lines of what I have been thinking. Very logical. That is also why I would never short shift on nitrous.

Actually, I have proof. The ecu cuts timing when a cylinder gets too noisy AND when it's quieter than expected.

I logged the knock sensor voltage, timing corrections and tested 12 runs, half shifting at redline, half shifting at 6400. 3 on CM7, 3 on CM10.

CM10 has less timing dropouts than the CM7, and has no impact on flatlining timing, so it's staying in.

The 6400 RPM shifts result in inconsistent timing recovery, it will flatline sometimes, and recover normally sometimes.

The automatic redline shifts result in 100% perfect timing recovery each and every time.

Based on the knock sensor feedback, its almost as if the engine doesn't know the trans is being shifted or reacts late, causing the car to flatline timing. Nothing to do with fuel trims, octane, or whatever other theories that presented themselves. Just overanxious knock sensors.

If you're interested, I can show you the graphical charts of my findings. PM me.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by themyst

Yeah, I know bout those TRMotorsports, not much of a difference there compared to the K1's, thanks for the clarification.

The manuals simply are nowhere as consistent as the autos, which is the biggest problem. I've owned a manual 135i and an auto 335i, and in a roll-on race I'll take the 335i all day long, even with the extra 200 lbs. Like I said, go for the WOTbox, it will help you become much more consistent shift to shift.

The JB+ may help you a bit 5000-5500 RPM in terms of peak boost, but further up top when the GIAC stage 2 tapers off, you won't see much in terms of gains. The JB+ is simply a glorified boost additive, so if your fueling can support the extra boost, it'll be a noticeable bump in power.

This is where I wish everyone had the ability to log the timing, knock sensor feedback and corrections of all 6 cylinders. I learned a LOT about how meth impacts the car by monitoring knock activity, timing, and corrections on all six cylinders. It appears all the tunes, JB, Procede, even GIAC with BT tool are handicapped in that regard. It's a shame too, there's a lot of good data there. It appears 850-950 ml/min of meth flow is what this car needs to support maximum power on stock turbos.

I forgot to ask..what CM Nozzles would correspond to 850-950 ml/min flow. Is a CM10 1000ml, and CM7 700 ml/min?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

I forgot to ask..what CM Nozzles would correspond to 850-950 ml/min flow. Is a CM10 1000ml, and CM7 700 ml/min?

Cm10 is 804ml roughly and cm7 is 630ml.

Edit-coolingmist doesn't specify based on pump pressure like DevilsOwn does. So I can't say on what pump psi. I'd assume 200 psi pump?

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by themyst

Cm10 is 804ml roughly and cm7 is 630ml.

Edit-coolingmist doesn't specify based on pump pressure like DevilsOwn does. So I can't say on what pump psi. I'd assume 200 psi pump?

Good info. Here is my logs from tonight. Same settings I have been using for a while now. Whether on/off nitrous, I don't change them. Map #3, 55 additive. As you can see, there is no 20-25psi of boost being used here. And quite possibly I may be using less overall boost than some of the others in this thread. How come they don't post their boost/timing graphs???

And the second log is with the nitrous engaged. I hope everyone can see the difference in timing...

[themyst]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Good info. Here is my logs from tonight. Same settings I have been using for a while now. Whether on/off nitrous, I don't change them. Map #3, 55 additive. As you can see, there is no 20-25psi of boost being used here. And quite possibly I may be using less overall boost than some of the others in this thread. How come they don't post their boost/timing graphs???

Not sure what's the accurate boost reporting on the jb4. The logs show you barely touch 18 psi but your in dash gauges indicate 19-20.

Timing looks good though.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by themyst

Not sure what's the accurate boost reporting on the jb4. The logs show you barely touch 18 psi but your in dash gauges indicate 19-20.

Timing looks good though.

I think the in dash needle gauge may not be accurate, but if its the other way around, I would love to know!

The biggest problem I am having right now that is about to make me hang up any drag strip runs is with a AFR spike problem I am having with the nitrous. If you look at the nitrous graph below, you will see the AFR spikes up. This will cause the engine to flutter, and feels like it is misfiring. When the black line goes down, you can see the JB4 has disengaged the nitrous. But even when disengaged, these horrible high AFRs may continue on.

You can see what a run looks like with the AFR going crazy, ruining the run.
At first it would happen occassionally, and I thought it was a result of being too low on gas, coupled with the increase acceleration of nitrous, causing starvation toward the end of the run. It seemed to be better if I ran more fuel in the tank.

But last week when I experimented with the episode of running the exhaust uncorked, I could not get one clean nitrous pass, without severe AFR cutting out. I figured the open exhaust was causing the engine to be more likely to run lean, so I reinstalled the exhaust. I tested the nitrous with the exhaust on this morning..same thing...car can't make a pass without the AFRs spiking to 20:1, and the subsequent cycling of the JB4 failsafe. (Which in case you haven't noticed, has probably saved my engine many times over). Remember, the yellow mustard colored line is the AFR. It will spike to 20:1 at times. Even though the JB4 has saved me countless times, I don't want to push my luck. As it is, I run a minimum 13.5:1 AFR requirement, and 1/2 degree timing requirement for nitrous to engange. (Very aggressive, and not recommended, especially at these power levels!). This is why I keep telling people worried about their little imperfect timing curves...considering what I have been running... I think people are over reacting to those little timing drops.

[SIKH335]

His nitrous log clearly hits 19-20psi. The last video he put together his gauges showed 19-20 psi but the claim is no nitrous. His non nitrous shows a cap boost of 18psi. I'm an Auto transmission let's settle this. The claim that he provides a log for each run is bs.

[Dr. G]

Originally Posted by themyst

Actually, two years ago, I've seen someone run 12.0@119 mph with ONLY a JB3, and downpipes with GT100 mixed with 93 octane... a manual at that on Kosei K1 / Hoosiers. He did unbolt his stock exhaust, which was my point, and yes it sounds terrible.

Wasn't there a 335xi fthat cut 11's on jb4 + race gas only just in the past month as well?

Originally Posted by themyst

Actually, I have proof. The ecu cuts timing when a cylinder gets too noisy AND when it's quieter than expected.

I logged the knock sensor voltage, timing corrections and tested 12 runs, half shifting at redline, half shifting at 6400. 3 on CM7, 3 on CM10.

CM10 has less timing dropouts than the CM7, and has no impact on flatlining timing, so it's staying in.

The 6400 RPM shifts result in inconsistent timing recovery, it will flatline sometimes, and recover normally sometimes.

The automatic redline shifts result in 100% perfect timing recovery each and every time.

Based on the knock sensor feedback, its almost as if the engine doesn't know the trans is being shifted or reacts late, causing the car to flatline timing. Nothing to do with fuel trims, octane, or whatever other theories that presented themselves. Just overanxious knock sensors.

If you're interested, I can show you the graphical charts of my findings. PM me.

Under what conditions did you do this testing? I've noticed that from 0-120 short shifting has always proved to be a bit faster for me even with the inconsistent timing recovery. I thought this problem was tune based and had nothing to do with the fact that I am short shifting or I was thinking that it had something to do with meth flow and AT shifts (I'm a tuning noob). I did note on my friends 135i in testing redlining did produce more consistent runs in the 60-130, but did not look into why.
Thanks for the informative post, this is something I will need to look into and could prove to be very helpful! I usually compared both methods based solely on vbox numbers, but will start looking into logs to see what's really going on.

[Dr. G]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

I think the in dash needle gauge may not be accurate, but if its the other way around, I would love to know!

The biggest problem I am having right now that is about to make me hang up any drag strip runs is with a AFR spike problem I am having with the nitrous. If you look at the end of that nitrous graph above, you will see at the end of 4th gear, while still WOT, the AFR spikes up. This will cause the engine to flutter, and feels like it is misfiring. When the black line goes down, you can see the JB4 has disengaged the nitrous. But even when disengaged, these horrible high AFRs may continue on.

You can see what a run looks like with the AFR going crazy, ruining the run.
At first it would happen occassionally, and I thought it was a result of being too low on gas, coupled with the increase acceleration of nitrous, causing starvation toward the end of the run. It seemed to be better if I ran more fuel in the tank.

But last week when I experimented with the episode of running the exhaust uncorked, I could not get one clean nitrous pass, without severe AFR cutting out. I figured the open exhaust was causing the engine to be more likely to run lean, so I reinstalled the exhaust. I tested the nitrous with the exhaust on this morning..same thing...car can't make a pass without the AFRs spiking to 20:1, and the subsequent cycling of the JB4 failsafe. (Which in case you haven't noticed, has probably saved my engine many times over). Remember, the yellow mustard colored line is the AFR. It will spike to 20:1 at times. Even though the JB4 has saved me countless times, I don't want to push my luck. As it is, I run a minimum 13.5:1 AFR requirement, and 1/2 degree timing requirement for nitrous to engange. (Very aggressive, and not recommended, especially at these power levels!). This is why I keep telling people worried about their little imperfect timing curves...considering what I have been running... I think people are over reacting to those little timing drops.

YIIIIKESSSS @ that log!! They would definitely scare the shit outta me haha.

[hotrod182]

So back on topic, as I was saying before I was side tracked, I am really aggravated by these lean spikes. I did two runs tonight, the one posted above, and then the one right before it. The one right before shows what is beginning to look like a lean spike at 15:1. Before, these only showed up while on nitrous. But this run was a normal off nitrous run. Timing and trap was worse too. I am really thinking something is going on with the fuel supply, injector sticking, etc. And I am sure it would never show up at stock power levels, so it is going to be tricky to find out what is causing this.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

So back on topic, as I was saying before I was side tracked, I am really aggravated by these lean spikes. I did two runs tonight, the one posted above, and then the one right before it. The one right before shows what is beginning to look like a lean spike at 15:1. Before, these only showed up while on nitrous. But this run was a normal off nitrous run. Timing and trap was worse too. I am really thinking something is going on with the fuel supply, injector sticking, etc. And I am sure it would never show up at stock power levels, so it is going to be tricky to find out what is causing this.

Why not reset the adaptations and give it another try?

I remember when I was first trying to diagnose that timing flatline issue, where AFR lean/rich spikes would appear to cause timing flatline post shift, and if I were looking at that log, I would think it's obvious, but it's really not.

[themyst]

And here is the knock sensor voltage logs with timing corrections and RPM.

Although the log tells you which one is flatlining and which one isn't, can you pick it out just by looking at the knock voltage? It's pretty obvious actually. ECU detects knock voltage isn't where it should be post-shift, cuts timing. After seeing what the flatline is actually from, I think it's a fantastic thing the ECU is doing. Can you imagine running overadvanced on such a quiet cylinder?

Like I said, could be another "coincidence" but 12 runs total where half are manually shifted and the other half aren't, is pretty conclusive evidence.

[SHOWTIME]

I dunno about anyone else, but if I had the fastest running car, I'd be curious to know WHY. I certainly would not have a problem with any professional inspecting it. I would at least dyno it just out of curiosity even if I believe real world testing is most accurate. Afterall, it was all offered to HR for free. HR appears to be very informal about how his car runs, but only the way he likes to explain or show it. Again, if it was me, I'd try and find every piece to the puzzle. I'd let anyone explain it from all angles, especially when other professionals are offering inspection and dyno for free. If I had nothing to hide, even if I got low dyno readings, I wouldn't care. I'd say, all experts are welcome to solve my mystery. The 3 flags below are enough to suspect something is hidden, not to mention there are more from what I've read so far.

1. Strongest engine falls in the hands of a record bragger
2. Won't send car to get inspected or dynoed for FREE
3. Car runs faster than other cars with more mods

HR, I'd like to believe you're being truthful, but you've gotta knock out some of these flags.

[cn555ic]

I would lay off the nitrous and Find out the problem with the a/f. Damn 15.1 and 20.1 spikes is no joke. Even though JB4 has saved you numerous times on nitrous it's still not good to get these spikes. Does JB4 have any lean run protection for regular meth maps and pump gas?

[dbjb]

Originally Posted by SHOWTIME

HR, I'd like to believe you're being truthful, but you've gotta knock out some of these flags.

I get what you're saying and do hope HR takes the challenge. Perhaps if Sik used a little more honey than vinegar... Not calling you a fly HR. lol.

Anyway, I'm not a track rat but after seeing some very fast cars run the 1/4, it is hard to believe HR completely. Last event had a c6 z06 with some weight savings, DR and unknown mods... He was in HR's territory. For me, it's hard to believe a car that is lighter, more powerful, LSD and DR is running even with our cars.

I've said previously that I believe HR's runs but still don't understand how it's possible. So, I ask again that HR just takes the challenge... For the good of the community.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by themyst

And here is the knock sensor voltage logs with timing corrections and RPM.

Although the log tells you which one is flatlining and which one isn't, can you pick it out just by looking at the knock voltage? It's pretty obvious actually. ECU detects knock voltage isn't where it should be post-shift, cuts timing. After seeing what the flatline is actually from, I think it's a fantastic thing the ECU is doing. Can you imagine running overadvanced on such a quiet cylinder?

Like I said, could be another "coincidence" but 12 runs total where half are manually shifted and the other half aren't, is pretty conclusive evidence.

Good stuff. Perhaps the redline shifting has been a good thing. I will say, I have previously gone to the track way back in the other white 335i, and short shifting definitely helped the trap speeds. On this car, when I tried it, the results were inconsistent. That was a long time ago. So perhaps it was inconsistent, because the timing was inconsistent. Once my timing and traps are stabilized, perhaps I will try and short shift again to see the effect on trap speeds. But you are right..how many dyno runs are done short shifting, lol.

Originally Posted by SHOWTIME

I dunno about anyone else, but if I had the fastest running car, I'd be curious to know WHY. I certainly would not have a problem with any professional inspecting it. I would at least dyno it just out of curiosity even if I believe real world testing is most accurate. Afterall, it was all offered to HR for free. HR appears to be very informal about how his car runs, but only the way he likes to explain or show it. Again, if it was me, I'd try and find every piece to the puzzle. I'd let anyone explain it from all angles, especially when other professionals are offering inspection and dyno for free. If I had nothing to hide, even if I got low dyno readings, I wouldn't care. I'd say, all experts are welcome to solve my mystery. The 3 flags below are enough to suspect something is hidden, not to mention there are more from what I've read so far.

1. Strongest engine falls in the hands of a record bragger
2. Won't send car to get inspected or dynoed for FREE
3. Car runs faster than other cars with more mods

HR, I'd like to believe you're being truthful, but you've gotta knock out some of these flags.

You have to understand, its easier said then done. I work 12 hrs days, and on the weekends, I spend all the time I have left (very little), trying to figure out things on my car, testing early in the morning or late at night, and trying to spend my time with the 2yr old in the daytime. If there is a way to get to the track on the weekend (when they were open) I would try that too. Its doesn't sit well with me to have to go take hours of my time to try and appease some doubter. Besides, we have seen dynos over and over. How does that necessarily prove my car might trap 1mph faster than someone elses. There is nothing significant to show!

I mean, seriously, recently I showed you traps of 124x on video and vbox. (125.2 with open exhaust).all the doubters come out, and yet no one questioned Shivs 125.x traps without nitrous? I know they were at Sac, but even back then no one questioned it. When I am running nitrous I show you the results, when I don't say I am running nitrous, I am not. Period. FYI, during my testing yesterday, my traps varied from barely 122mph to almost 124mph. Varied with adaptation and timing imiprovement. Instead of doubting, people should just look at the results of relative imrpovement. Instead of looking at absolute trap speeds, look at what is helping to improve or reduce my trap speeds.

The other thing you can do if you can't stand my results, just put me on ignore and stay out of my threads, plain and simple.

And the other thing you can do is PM me, bring your expert down to inspect my car, and I will do the vbox run right there in front of him. Thats the only way to do it. I mean what are we going to do, dyno the car, and then have an escort straight to a qtr mile test thats far away? Again, what does going to a dyno place have to do with my trap speeds being within a mph or so of others? There isn't an easy way to look at peak power, exact power under the curve, etc, or a dyno graph, and then honestly say "oh that is why this car can trap a mph faster than this other car". It serves no practical purpose at all.

Now here is something everyone should know by looking at trap speed results. Realistically there is always a variance between different cars/places/times. Look at the top 15 of the C63s with tune/headers. So one guy traps 119mph, some low 120s, mid 120s, and the top one close to 130. So do you think the guy that traps 119mph should be accusing the guys that run over 125mph of running nitrous? These accusations on my car are really pretty pathetic when you think of it. These same variances occur all accross the brand/model ranges at different drag strips. Its nothing new at all, and its nothing significant. And its not because of nitrous, LOL. And for the guy that constantly bickers that he is acheiving lower trap speeds, who cares. Take in the information and use it for your benefit. I have already shown what the car has been toleratiing, what kind of traps can be had, what seems to improve my performance, etc. Its your choice to read/believe my threads or not.

[hotrod182]

If you want a dyno, there is a place nearby that has dynoed cars from HP autoworks, Brian 135i, Balla J, etc. Its a superflow, so pretty conservative. You want to pay for my dyno there, be my guest. Not only is it close by, but its also near the test track, so you can follow me there. But a dyno would prove nothing, still a waste of money in my opinion, but if you must have a dyno...heres your opportunity. They would also know that I don't have a sneaky peak system, because that is where I buy my nitrous, and have only filled the big 10lb bottle there. And no, I don't have a nitrous pump at home to transfer from bottle to bottle! Its kind of funny, there is nothing to be found or proved. As I said, its the same variances the top 10 lists show for many cars.

[JBax]

Originally Posted by dsbj

Anyway, I'm not a track rat but after seeing some very fast cars run the 1/4, it is hard to believe HR completely. Last event had a c6 z06 with some weight savings, DR and unknown mods... He was in HR's territory. For me, it's hard to believe a car that is lighter, more powerful, LSD and DR is running even with our cars.

Z06 probably needs a driver mod. Bone stock they are very capable of mid to upper 11's. Like everyone should already know, ANYTHING can happen in real life. A Z06 could run a 13 sec 1/4 mile if the driver sucks. It's not exactly cake to consistently launch a high hp rwd car perfectly with a manual trans. I've always favored roll on races because of this.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Good stuff. Perhaps the redline shifting has been a good thing. I will say, I have previously gone to the track way back in the other white 335i, and short shifting definitely helped the trap speeds. On this car, when I tried it, the results were inconsistent. That was a long time ago. So perhaps it was inconsistent, because the timing was inconsistent. Once my timing and traps are stabilized, perhaps I will try and short shift again to see the effect on trap speeds. But you are right..how many dyno runs are done short shifting, lol.

The key variable is the DME software. I don't believe your old coupe had the latest DME software, right?

[turb0mik3]

I don't have a problem with you (HR) running ridiculously good numbers at a drag strip. My dog could run those numbers by just pushing down on the accelerator.

I am tick'd that you don't have any clue what numbers you are putting to the ground. You can keep up with a 650whp Gintani M3 and you say you weren't using nos...

This is how you solve the problem EVERYONE has with you...

1) Just get a fucking dyno already (w/ & w/out nitrous).
I don't care if you work 12hrs each day, you get days off so take the car and see what you are running. You have time for drag strip runs, you have time for a dyno. If you are running anywhere near 430-440whp (w/out nitrous) I will be somewhat satisfied, and I bet so will SIKH.

Bottom line is I will believe you when you come to an event and have a dyno sheet. Even at our event shit happens, like me mis-shifting or SIKH double shifting on accident. We don't know the story from that white C63. You could have beat him but he was in a wrong gear. Your results, which you need to admit, are highly suspicious. I would LOVE to be proved wrong and shut up BENZ folks, but your stuff is incomprehensible in terms of pure physics.

[cn555ic]

If it takes a dyno to shut these guys up, I don't see what the issue is here