[bnj]

Originally Posted by herbz

Even if either/or isn't a boost controller. The standard, proven method which has been done on turbo's for years it exactly what Shiv is doing now. The second I heard about the 335i I knew the BMW world was going to be introduced to the piggyback mod. Alot of people seemed surprised that you could get that much power for that little $, but those of us who have been around turbo's already saw it coming a mile away.

That being said, I'm not sure what JB does, or what it's claiming to do, but if it differs from what Shiv is doing it all, it's not correct. Why? Because the way Shiv does it, is the way it's been done on every other turbo'ed car ever manufactured. Shiv hasn't done anything revolutionary here. Technology like this has a track record of decades of being successful & safe. Technology like the others has a track record of failing on other cars.

It's up to whoever, if you really care about your car and want it to last as long as possible, I seriously reccomend getting a professional tune. but it's not up to me, so I don't really care. Just trying to spread some thruths.

As you say, you are not sure what JB does. Moreover, 335i tuning is different from tuning "every other turbo'ed car ever manufactured". It differs by the ECU adaptation capabilities. All the tuning for 335i applies the ECU adapting more or less. That ECU adapting has not been around for all those other turbo cars. Applying ECU adaptation explains e.g. why Procede does NOT alter ignition timing for 91oct and 93oct separately. So you cannot take all the info from traditional tuning and apply it here. None of the tuner does the tuning exactly the old way for this adapting ECU.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by herbz

All you guys need to do to get the truth is simple..... go look around on ANY OTHER TURBOCHARGED CAR forum.... for example: http://www.clubwrx.net , Evo forum, Dodge SRT-4 forums, etc.

If you really want the truth just read my post.

Tuning turbo's isn't just a BMW thing. The "Procede" is just a fancy name for a modification that's been done literally millions of times to other turbo'ed cars before. In the industry, it's called a "Piggyback ECU". The WRX, for example, has many options available for piggybacks, such as "Cobb", "Accessport", and others. Those are just the names.

In laymans terms, to understand what it does, you need to understand the fundementals of what goes on in a cylinder. It's really not hard. Google "4 stroke cycle". If you can't do that, well, sorry.

The Piggyback can be programmed to modify fuel (amount of fuel in the cylinder), air (amount of air in the cylinder), and timing (at what time the spark plugs go off to combust the air & fuel in the cylinder).

By increasing fuel and air, and properly adjusting the spark timing, one can easily make more power.

This is the safe method. The "other method" has been discussed as well on many other forums. It's called a "Boost Controller" (aka Turbo Tuner, JB in the BMW world), and it's basically the cheap dirty way to get power.

For low boost applications it won't hurt, but cheaply increasing boost significantly and not adjusting anything else is going to fuck your engine in the long term. Doesn't really matter for ppl with leases but anyone who owns should just plop down the $1k and get what is called a "professional tune" aka Procede or AA Xede. As of now those are the only two legitimate tuning sources. The Turbo Tuner and JB are junk, and people will eventually realize this after visiting some other forums and seeing what knowledgeable car people think of Manual Boost Controllers such as JB and TT.

thanks.

So many words and nothing said. The norm on these boards.

[A418t81]

Originally Posted by roy@gambitmotorsport

Interested - how so?

Could enough static offsets handle the situation properly (I imagine they might) or is he going with a map and a CPU? If I totally misunderstand, tell me nicely. Not trying to raise the ire of anyone, just looking for information.

Only stage 1 has a static offset. S2 is already variable.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by bnj

As you say, you are not sure what JB does. Moreover, 335i tuning is different from tuning "every other turbo'ed car ever manufactured". It differs by the ECU adaptation capabilities. All the tuning for 335i applies the ECU adapting more or less. That ECU adapting has not been around for all those other turbo cars. Applying ECU adaptation explains e.g. why Procede does NOT alter ignition timing for 91oct and 93oct separately. So you cannot take all the info from traditional tuning and apply it here. None of the tuner does the tuning exactly the old way for this adapting ECU.

ECU/DME Adaptation/Trimming/Adjusting has been around for 25+ years. The difference is that now they do it much quicker and more accurately. This includes both fuel and spark.

[E90Russ]

I don't think the JuiceBox is a dirty setup, from what I've read it seems a pretty safe alternative to a Procede.

At first I was convinced I wanted the Procede, but I'm not really sure at this point. It seems the JuiceBox is a better deal.

[bnj]

Originally Posted by scalbert

ECU/DME Adaptation/Trimming/Adjusting has been around for 25+ years. The difference is that now they do it much quicker and more accurately. This includes both fuel and spark.

Exactly. That difference allows strategy which relies more on the ECU adjusting, whereas earlier that strategy would have caused a poor tune both power and safety wise.

[roy@gambitmotorsport]

Originally Posted by bnj

Exactly. That difference allows strategy which relies more on the ECU adjusting, whereas earlier that strategy would have caused a poor tune both power and safety wise.

Agreed. Subaru upgraded their ECU with the 2007 model of STIs and from what I've read on NASIOC and IWSTI maps aren't as important as the ECU "adjusts" to upgrades. Would love to learn more from someone who professionally tunes... Don't knock me, so long as the basis of this is true.

Not trying to add fuel to the fire, but in a world with a learning ECU, the piggy-back almost has to act like a psychologist to try to keep getting the same results, does it not? That being said, the piggy-backs do seem to get the best peaks, although the reflashes (Turner, Dinan) seem to me to have the most future potential.

But, for the money, a hard-wired add-on approach connected to an adaptive ECU may very well be safe and powerful.

My 2 cents. Don't think I completely misrepresented anything, but I learn everyday.

[Beer Goggles]

A real piggy back usually lets a tuner adjust things. If you really want to get picky then look for one that lets somebody adjust the system to your car.