[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by phil200tdi

But an LSD should more than make up for this at the drag strip...

Big torque means wheel spin in 2nd/3rd gear too!

Read back what I said..... LSD cannot make up for low torque and high power delivery.

Originally Posted by Boz335i

I can only go by the 15+ M3 V8's I've seen at the pod, these seem to have averaged low to mid 13's but generally with a higher terminal speed than mine.
My 12.8 was at 108 mph.



This makes a lot of sense.

Just like I see many many E46 struggle do get into the 13's.. It's a hard car to launch. I see them 13.9-14.2@102 ish.

I manage in standard version 13.3@107..

The 335's are easier to launch.


The E92 M3 has a higher trap because te a faster car, get a decent driver and they will deliver.




Kerr, I've always found my fastest times have the highest MPH, generally.

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Read back what I said..... LSD cannot make up for low torque and high power delivery.

M3 has much shorter gear ratios, thus increasing rear wheel torque. If you dial the numbers in the force at the wheels is not that different.

I don't see where this point is going, and I don't get when people talk about torque and horsepower as if they are distinct from each other.

Is the point you are trying to make that in the low RPM's the M3 has a much lower average power due to its lower engine torque and later climb to peak torque? That seems pretty irrelevant once above 2500 RPM. This is what gear ratios are for. And providing your transmission can put the power to the ground I don't really understand what engine torque has to do with any of this?

[dxb335d]

Not driven an E92 M3 but the ratios on the E46 are looooong..

The M3 will not pull very well from 2k the 335i will. That's what I'm
Getting at.

Launch a 400HP 335i at 2k and it will start quicker than an E92 M3 at 2k rpm.

Start the M3 at 5.5k with a clueless driver it will still launch slower (due to wheels pin) compared to the 335i at 2k.

The M3 is harder to launch fact.

The M3 is a faster car fact.

[idnan]

What does the m3 v8 trap at? A full bolt on 335i can do 115mph traps on good quality fuel.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by idnan

What does the m3 v8 trap at? A full bolt on 335i can do 115mph traps on good quality fuel.

I've yet to see that myself. Usually 108-110 on UK super.Have you run yours? Or going off US mph? With race fuel.

M3 is anywhere between 110-112 from what I have seen. Standard super. No race fuel.

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by Boz335i

3. Change gear at 5800rpm, as your torque curve starts to drop off at this point.

That's irrelevant without calculating gear ratios. For 1st, through 3rd always change at the red line. 3rd to 4th is slightly different. The ratio between the gears is only 0.75 in terms of RPM drop, so depending on what mods you have it may be better to shift before the red line.

Engine torque is not the same as transmission and wheel torque. When you change gear to a longer gear you reduce the amount of torque going to the wheels by the multiplier of the gear ratio for a given engine RPM.

If your next gear is half the previous gear to get the same amount of force you need double the torque from the engine. N54 torque does drop off at high RPMs but it certainly doesn't half from its peak prior to the red line!

The reason power is used to measure engine performance is because it is far simpler. You can sit in your car, perform a shift at 6500 rpm, see what your revs are after the shift and then look on your dyno chart and see how much power you are getting now vs. how much you would have had if you'd continued revving.

If you're shifting prior to the red line and have less power after the shift then you are shifting too early. Alternatively if you are shifting prior to the red line and have more power after the shift then you might be shifting too late!

In an ideal world after a shift you'll have the same power output as before with more power coming as you increase RPM. Of course usually the red line prevents this happening.

[idnan]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I've yet to see that myself. Usually 108-110 on UK super.Have you run yours? Or going off US mph? With race fuel.

M3 is anywhere between 110-112 from what I have seen. Standard super. No race fuel.

Not too much in it then. Remember though not all tunes are equal, JB4 cars tend to perform better than remapped cars. The figures I mentioned were on pump gas but I don't know if there was weight loss/drag tyres etc.

This is impressive:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=813421

Haven't run mine yet as it is constantly broken or being modified. On normal fuel with meth and RBs people in the USA are running 125mph traps so if mine does 120mph I'll be happy. Just have to swap the flywheel over when it arrives and do a million other things so that I'm happy.

[phil200tdi]

I did a 13.6 at 108 whilst my car was misfiring like a bitch - just prior to installing meth.

I expect 110-115 traps on a stage 2 car.

Once the new clutch and FW go in I'll hit the dyno and do a few runs at the pod!

[dxb335d]

There is a massive difference in 110-115 mmate, a car will not vary that much between runs. Maybe 1-2mph

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by idnan

Not too much in it then. Remember though not all tunes are equal, JB4 cars tend to perform better than remapped cars. The figures I mentioned were on pump gas but I don't know if there was weight loss/drag tyres etc.

This is impressive:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=813421

Haven't run mine yet as it is constantly broken or being modified. On normal fuel with meth and RBs people in the USA are running 125mph traps so if mine does 120mph I'll be happy. Just have to swap the flywheel over when it arrives and do a million other things so that I'm happy.

I will check that link later thabks.

125mph is supercar territory! Mental!

[Sparky68]

Originally Posted by djgandy

That's irrelevant without calculating gear ratios. For 1st, through 3rd always change at the red line. 3rd to 4th is slightly different. The ratio between the gears is only 0.75 in terms of RPM drop, so depending on what mods you have it may be better to shift before the red line.

Engine torque is not the same as transmission and wheel torque. When you change gear to a longer gear you reduce the amount of torque going to the wheels by the multiplier of the gear ratio for a given engine RPM.

If your next gear is half the previous gear to get the same amount of force you need double the torque from the engine. N54 torque does drop off at high RPMs but it certainly doesn't half from its peak prior to the red line!

The reason power is used to measure engine performance is because it is far simpler. You can sit in your car, perform a shift at 6500 rpm, see what your revs are after the shift and then look on your dyno chart and see how much power you are getting now vs. how much you would have had if you'd continued revving.

If you're shifting prior to the red line and have less power after the shift then you are shifting too early. Alternatively if you are shifting prior to the red line and have more power after the shift then you might be shifting too late!

In an ideal world after a shift you'll have the same power output as before with more power coming as you increase RPM. Of course usually the red line prevents this happening.

What effect would a autobox bring into that equation?

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Not driven an E92 M3 but the ratios on the E46 are looooong..

The M3 will not pull very well from 2k the 335i will. That's what I'm
Getting at.

Launch a 400HP 335i at 2k and it will start quicker than an E92 M3 at 2k rpm.

Start the M3 at 5.5k with a clueless driver it will still launch slower (due to wheels pin) compared to the 335i at 2k.

The M3 is harder to launch fact.

The M3 is a faster car fact.

E46 still has shorter ratios than the 335 MT, and they are shorter than the E92 M3 MT too! But that said it has less torque than both so yes it should probably have even longer ratios.

[idnan]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I will check that link later thabks.

125mph is supercar territory! Mental!

Cheers mate.
Doubt I'll hit that but I'm confident of 120mph. I'm just reinforcing everything now to make sure it can take that power. I broke the propshaft last summer but I've got an e92 m3 LSD, full set of polybushes and AST coilovers now so should hopefully be ready soon. Fingers crossed that dual nozzle methanol should be working this weekend.

[Kerr]

This argument will rumble on and on.

I just find it odd that I've seen numerous E92 M3s running the quarter mile, you can literally youtube 100s of them and 99% of them are running mid to low 13s at usually 106mph.

6mph is a very significant speed difference as is 0.5-0.7 sec.

As for launching, it is the torque that causes wheelspin and I've found cars will less torque easier to get off the line.

The 335i in theory should be harder to launch with more torque and no LSD.

Break traction and the car will load up the one wheel with least traction.

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by Sparky68

What effect would a autobox bring into that equation?

In what way? Obviously the auto box will use some energy so you'll lose some power to the wheels. I think both the E92 autos are actually geared shorter than the manual. Also annoyingly geared better for cruising at low RPMs! The DCT has the advantage of the extra gear too.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by djgandy

E46 still has shorter ratios than the 335 MT, and they are shorter than the E92 M3 MT too! But that said it has less torque than both so yes it should probably have even longer ratios.

I dot think they have Mate, mine does 40 in 1st, 70 in 2nd and 100 in 3rd I can't see the 335i being longer than that.


They are so long I'm contemplating changing the final drive to a shorter ratio as this is a successful mod done in the states to improve acceleration drastically in the E46 M3

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Kerr

This argument will rumble on and on.

I just find it odd that I've seen numerous E92 M3s running the quarter mile, you can literally youtube 100s of them and 99% of them are running mid to low 13s at usually 106mph.

6mph is a very significant speed difference as is 0.5-0.7 sec.

As for launching, it is the torque that causes wheelspin and I've found cars will less torque easier to get off the line.

The 335i in theory should be harder to launch with more torque and no LSD.

Break traction and the car will load up the one wheel with least traction.

Kerr mate, IT'S BECAUSE OF POOR DRIVERS..

Why do we see 14.0@102mph from E46 M3's...?! SAME REASON...


But they can do 13.0@108 (fastest I've found)


It's all in the 60ft, bet those 13.5@106 E92 M3's had 2.4/2.3 60fts which is dire by any means

Get a decent 2.0 and the car will do a 12.7

[dxb335d]

Never had an issue launching my Denzil with no LSD! Best 60ft was a monstrous 1.7 that's 4wd territory, can't do that in my M3.

[dxb335d]

Kerr its all good and well talking about it, get yours down SP (not Crail) and set a decent time. I'll borrow a E92 M3!

[idnan]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I dot think they have Mate, mine does 40 in 1st, 70 in 2nd and 100 in 3rd I can't see the 335i being longer than that.


They are so long I'm contemplating changing the final drive to a shorter ratio as this is a successful mod done in the states to improve acceleration drastically in the E46 M3

I've got a shorter final drive in mine now but even before that my manual 335i didn't have gears that long. More like 35, 60, 90something

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Never had an issue launching my Denzil with no LSD! Best 60ft was a monstrous 1.7 that's 4wd territory, can't do that in my M3.

That is really impressive on street tyres

[djgandy]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I dot think they have Mate, mine does 40 in 1st, 70 in 2nd and 100 in 3rd I can't see the 335i being longer than that.


They are so long I'm contemplating changing the final drive to a shorter ratio as this is a successful mod done in the states to improve acceleration drastically in the E46 M3

Yeah but your engine revs to 8000 but the 335 only revs to 7000.

Originally Posted by idnan

I've got a shorter final drive in mine now but even before that my manual 335i didn't have gears that long. More like 35, 60, 90something

335 MT will do ~40 in 1st and 65 in 2nd

[08E60535iLCI]

saw a fbo 335i with jb4 las sat night murder a properly drive 5,0 with exhaust, tune and boss 302 manifold and that 5.0 beats on stcok M3s like nothing

so yeah a fbo 335i should uterlly destroy an M3 from a roll 60 to130 or os