[Noize]

Originally Posted by hool97

One could always use a little Torco or mix 104 oct unleaded in with the cali crapgas. Like others have said its about the safety margin. To others everything is relative when it comes to knock: Octane, IAT, AFR, Exh. Temps, back pressure, Turbo spool rate, piston /chamber temps, etc. So intakes, downpipes and FMICs will effect knock just like octane.

On my vette I run 91 crap gas with 650 rwhp, but i always use a little methanol and reasonable timing curves to keep it safe.

For crying out loud, DO NOT put Torco in a direct injection car, especially one that is prone to fuel pump failure. Taking it to the dealer with all that orange crap in there = recipe for drama.

Drive it, it the map causes an issue, back the torque settings off a tad. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[hool97]

Originally Posted by Noize

For crying out loud, DO NOT put Torco in a direct injection car, especially one that is prone to fuel pump failure. Taking it to the dealer with all that orange crap in there = recipe for drama.

Drive it, it the map causes an issue, back the torque settings off a tad. Lather, rinse, repeat.

That's the reason I said OR, I have not heard about data either way with Torco and Direct injection. But I don't believe you have any data saying it will have any effect on the direct injection. The orange exhaust is just that exhaust. That also only builds up after long periods of use with relatively good doses of the stuff. you can see it on the back of the exhaust pipe where you normally see black powder residue.

Thanks.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by sflgator

Also, if one experiences knock often enough, what would be the consequences to the engine?

Jesus...

No offense man, but for someone running a piggyback that ups boost significantly, and to not have adequate (or even elementary, apparently) understanding of knock/pinging and subsequent detonation, you should really do a bit more research on the subject, unless you want to be giving BMW more money.

If I misunderstood you, and you were simply being sarcastic and / or joking around with that comment, I offer my apologies, but it certainly seemed like it was a serious question. I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just sort of amazed that you would install or have installed for you the Procede or other boost-controller type mod, without fully realizing the potential consequences of 'over doing it.'

This is a decent article that explains exactly what knock is, its consequences and causes.

http://www.stanford.edu/~bmoses/knock.html


happy boosting

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by Odin

Jesus...

No offense man, but for someone running a piggyback that ups boost significantly, and to not have adequate (or even elementary, apparently) understanding of knock/pinging and subsequent detonation, you should really do a bit more research on the subject, unless you want to be giving BMW more money.

If I misunderstood you, and you were simply being sarcastic and / or joking around with that comment, I offer my apologies, but it certainly seemed like it was a serious question. I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just sort of amazed that you would install or have installed for you the Procede or other boost-controller type mod, without fully realizing the potential consequences of 'over doing it.'

This is a decent article that explains exactly what knock is, its consequences and causes.

http://www.stanford.edu/~bmoses/knock.html


happy boosting

I understand the process to a point; thank you for the link. I guess I should have been more specific in my question. I'm interested to know if combustion knock would cause a fault code and/or a cylinder "misfiring" (w/ a failed spark plug)? In addition, I'd like to know just how many instances of knock would cause major damage...just 1 or 2 times, or does it take numerous or continuous combustion knock (for several days/weeks/months???) to seriously damage the engine?

[Odin]

Originally Posted by sflgator

I understand the process to a point; thank you for the link. I guess I should have been more specific in my question. I'm interested to know if combustion knock would cause a fault code and/or a cylinder "misfiring" (w/ a failed spark plug)? In addition, I'd like to know just how many instances of knock would cause major damage...just 1 or 2 times, or does it take numerous or continuous combustion knock (for several days/weeks/months???) to seriously damage the engine?

It's a cliche, but...it all depends. Certainly a small amount of pinging isn't going to make your motor an oversized paperweight. Hell, some of the Mitsu Evo VIIIs were apparently experiencing knock at stock boost levels right off of the factory floor. Knock is typically majored in 'counts' which I would say is a measurement of 'severity.' Detonation occurs when ignition occurs in the cylinder but is not precipitated by the spark plug, ie normal combustion. It is an uneven 'explosion' (referred to as preignition) caused by what I understand (I might be a bit off on this) is too much internal pressure and not enough fuel in the combustion chamber. This can seriously damage the cylinder wall, piston, and other internal components.

Will you grenade your motor if you get a 3-5 counts of knock everytime you go full throttle all the way to 7k? No. But, at least from my experience with datalogging the 3000GT VR4 (twin turbo v6), and lots of helpful insight from the fine folks over at 3si.org, consistent knock above 7-10 counts is definitely a problem and needs to be dealt with, either by running a higher octane gasoline (higher octane = harder to ignite which = less prone to preignition), running water or alcohol injection (obviously not the most favorable solution), or simply lowering boost pressure. Keep in mind this entire discussion is assuming the knock is occurring at wide open throttle and full boost. If you're experiencing knock at partial throttle and low boost or even at idle, it's quite possible you've spun a bearing or something similarly catastrophic. Don't worry, if you're knocking at idle, it will most likely be severe enough to actually hear, you won't need a datalogger to find that one, haha.

I'd like to point out I can only speak of my experiences with the 3000GT VR4 I mentioned prior, as I'm not exactly well-versed in the unique tolerances and internal idiosyncrasies of the N54 engine. If anything that I've said is misleading or blatantly wrong, someone please tell me! haha...(please)

[e.n335]

Hi,

Here you see the v2.0.1 map's default user settings:



For all who like to try for whatever reason slightly reduced settings, you can use this:



I will test the linear, slightly reduced settings by today on my way back home ( 280 km / 174 miles ). These settings should be still much stronger than v1.47, which would be according to Shiv ~80% across the board.

- Eugen

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Odin

It's a cliche, but...it all depends. Certainly a small amount of pinging isn't going to make your motor an oversized paperweight. Hell, some of the Mitsu Evo VIIIs were apparently experiencing knock at stock boost levels right off of the factory floor. Knock is typically majored in 'counts' which I would say is a measurement of 'severity.' Detonation occurs when ignition occurs in the cylinder but is not precipitated by the spark plug, ie normal combustion. It is an uneven 'explosion' (referred to as preignition) caused by what I understand (I might be a bit off on this) is too much internal pressure and not enough fuel in the combustion chamber. This can seriously damage the cylinder wall, piston, and other internal components.

Will you grenade your motor if you get a 3-5 counts of knock everytime you go full throttle all the way to 7k? No. But, at least from my experience with datalogging the 3000GT VR4 (twin turbo v6), and lots of helpful insight from the fine folks over at 3si.org, consistent knock above 7-10 counts is definitely a problem and needs to be dealt with, either by running a higher octane gasoline (higher octane = harder to ignite which = less prone to preignition), running water or alcohol injection (obviously not the most favorable solution), or simply lowering boost pressure. Keep in mind this entire discussion is assuming the knock is occurring at wide open throttle and full boost. If you're experiencing knock at partial throttle and low boost or even at idle, it's quite possible you've spun a bearing or something similarly catastrophic. Don't worry, if you're knocking at idle, it will most likely be severe enough to actually hear, you won't need a datalogger to find that one, haha.

I'd like to point out I can only speak of my experiences with the 3000GT VR4 I mentioned prior, as I'm not exactly well-versed in the unique tolerances and internal idiosyncrasies of the N54 engine. If anything that I've said is misleading or blatantly wrong, someone please tell me! haha...(please)

The best description I have read up to now. Thanks !

- Eugen

[sflgator]

Thank you for that detailed explanation, Odin!

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by odin

It is an uneven 'explosion' (referred to as preignition) caused by what I understand (I might be a bit off on this) is too much internal pressure and not enough fuel in the combustion chamber.

Ultimately what you're concerned about is it getting too hot in the cylinder for the gas mixture you're applying. Pressure increases heat (and power output). And running lean increases heat (and power output). But what constitutes too much internal pressure or too lean of a mixture is directly related to the octane rating of your fuel.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by e.n335

... I will test the linear, slightly reduced settings by today on my way back home ( 280 km / 174 miles ). These settings should be still much stronger than v1.47, which would be according to Shiv ~80% across the board.

- Eugen

The reduced torque settings for map v2.0.1 are working but I don't like them as all the customizations I tried. What I recognized today was that as soon as boost is in the game, even slightly, Shiv is adding fuel. I am not sure if this has been the same with V1.47.

Shiv's predefined settings work perfect for me.

- Eugen

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by pushok132

I decided to do 100% accross the board for the torque selection for the V2 and i induced knock. Car was hellla faster than the other settings but you need higher than 91 octane to not have any problems. After about 4K RPM's you will have power cut out and here a click click click and the rpm's just hang out for a little while untill you let off throttle. This is under full throttle. Just thought id let you guys know so you dont make the same mistake i have made. Everything works perfect now that i used the settings that the map came with. I talked to the people at vishnu and they said if you use 100 octane or like the other guy using 93 octane or above you will be perfectly fine. BTW. I Smoked my friends m6 . Did the race 3 times up to 100 and i had 5-7 car lengths on him and pulling haha. Will post videos when he sends them to me. He was in M mode and very mad lol.

+2!!:

Cross-Post from vishu forums:

Sunday: Thanks Shiv & Dustin. Re-checking the wiring (after my 1st screwup) was correct. Originally, I was messing with the torque numbers and had 100 on everything and forgot. I am running Shell 91 with 5 gallons 100 octane mix. Perhaps knock/miss was induced because the ECU couldn't adapt to the new gas and high torque settings?? Standard torque settings are loaded back up and after a long test session, there are no codes or knock.

[Odin]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Ultimately what you're concerned about is it getting too hot in the cylinder for the gas mixture you're applying. Pressure increases heat (and power output). And running lean increases heat (and power output). But what constitutes too much internal pressure or too lean of a mixture is directly related to the octane rating of your fuel.

Right, since octane rating is basically a measurement of knock resistance. You said it a bit more clearly then I did up there, thanks

[Mr. 5]

Is this the default user settings for 91 octane or 93?

Originally Posted by e.n335

Hi,

Here you see the v2.0.1 map's default user settings:



For all who like to try for whatever reason slightly reduced settings, you can use this:



I will test the linear, slightly reduced settings by today on my way back home ( 280 km / 174 miles ). These settings should be still much stronger than v1.47, which would be according to Shiv ~80% across the board.

- Eugen

[e.n335]

^

The values in the first window are the default settings of the v2.0.1 map. Minimum octane is 91 AKI ( 95-65 RON ).

BMW recommends the use of 93 octane AKI ( 97-98 RON ) for the 335i in Europe, 91 octane AKI is minimum with reduced power output on stock cars.

American owner's manual ( abstract ):

---
If you use gasoline with this minimum AKI Rating ( 89 ), the engine may produce knocking sounds when starting at high outside temperatures. This has no effect on the engine life.
---



So far what BMW tells about the N54. A miracle .

- Eugen

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by e.n335

The best description I have read up to now. Thanks !

- Eugen

Good info....

[vase330]

Originally Posted by e.n335

^

The values in the first window are the default settings of the v2.0.1 map. Minimum octane is 91 AKI ( 95-65 RON ).

BMW recommends the use of 93 octane AKI ( 97-98 RON ) for the 335i in Europe, 91 octane AKI is minimum with reduced power output on stock cars.

American owner's manual ( abstract ):

---
If you use gasoline with this minimum AKI Rating ( 89 ), the engine may produce knocking sounds when starting at high outside temperatures. This has no effect on the engine life.
---



So far what BMW tells about the N54. A miracle .

- Eugen

Nothing against lawyers we all need them every once in a while, but such moronic idiosyncrasies with our cars in the US are the result of lawyers who will sue for anything. Same goes for fobs that don't close windows! Stupid IMO, but smart business by BMW.

[stefano7171]

Originally Posted by e.n335

^

The values in the first window are the default settings of the v2.0.1 map. Minimum octane is 91 AKI ( 95-65 RON ).

BMW recommends the use of 93 octane AKI ( 97-98 RON ) for the 335i in Europe, 91 octane AKI is minimum with reduced power output on stock cars.

American owner's manual ( abstract ):

---
If you use gasoline with this minimum AKI Rating ( 89 ), the engine may produce knocking sounds when starting at high outside temperatures. This has no effect on the engine life.
---



So far what BMW tells about the N54. A miracle .

- Eugen

Yeah, you can let the engine knock all the time, no problem but we will void your warranry if we find even only traces of the install of a piggyback! thanks BMW for your wiseness !

[E90 335i]

Florida Shell V Power 93 octane FTW.....does anybody know the wait time on V2?

[FirstClass]

What the fuck are you guys smoking? A 335i has a snowball's chance in hell of beating an M6 unless you're running for only a few seconds from a dig.

[Jonmartin]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

What the fuck are you guys smoking? A 335i has a snowball's chance in hell of beating an M6 unless you're running for only a few seconds from a dig.

says the guy with a 328

[kaji335i]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

What the fuck are you guys smoking? A 335i has a snowball's chance in hell of beating an M6 unless you're running for only a few seconds from a dig.

Guess you havent driven or rode in a Proceded car. Go watch Walked U's runs vs a M5, then come back and rethink your post.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by Jonmartin

says the guy with a 328

Originally Posted by kaji335i

Guess you havent driven or rode in a Proceded car. Go watch Walked U's runs vs a M5, then come back and rethink your post.

Erm, stock M6's are 12.4 1/4 @ 118. I have yet to see even a PROcede with DR's do that. (Unless I missed a post somewhere.) Granted PROcede with DR's can apparently hit 12.4, but the trap is about 10mph lower, meaning the M6 would pull more and more as speed increased. Now, suppose we put the M6 on DR's also and gave it a pulley and/or ECU and it would be an even more devastating victory.