[slubu]

After this weekend I will have driven a stock MSD80 pre 29.2, stock MSD81, a JB3 MSD81 and a Dinan Stage II MSD81 (all 6MT). I will report back regarding lag feels and such. I would really love to get my hands on a stock MSD80 post 29.2.

Edit: Just to clarify, it is not to promote one tune or another, but rather see if by comparing we can understand more about this lag, and what various tunes do to rectify it, reduce it, or maybe nothing at all, and consequently be better prepared to address the root of the problem.

[Mech_Man]

I've read this entire thread and am also quite concerned about getting as good a car as we can get, (however, mine is a 05/2008-built e92 and don't think I ever test drove a pre 29.2 car so I'm guessing that I don't know what I'm missing).

Being devils advocate: IMHO, until someone gets a pre and a post-29.2 on a dyno and posts charts of same types of car, with torque and performance curves, then there is no real 'proof' that there is anything wrong, just a lot of folks posting pissed-off messages on the Internet. There is so much of that going around that it gets lost in all the noise.

I, myself believe all the previous posters who say that they are very knowledgeable about cars, knowledgeable about turbo lag, and (as much as any non-BMW engineer can get), knowledgeable about the software tweaking. And their descriptions of before and after are dramatic enough to convince me. But it is all, (sorry to say), still individual peoples opinions of a very subjective experience, outsiders won't likely give it much credence, and it's doubtful that BMW will take action that might set a precedent costing them big bucks unless they have more proof of potential greater loss.

The BMW website (still) promises that they'd rid the car of lag:
From: http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Uniquely/Innovations/Index.aspx?enc=BegxquFg2O3+feH/dAhfcw==
(condensed clickable URL): http://************/6loc69

"By combining twin turbochargers with BMW"s direct fuel injection system and advanced piezo injector technology, we achieved the benefits of turbocharging without the drawbacks, namely poor fuel efficiency and turbo lag. In fact, we eliminated turbo lag altogether ."
(My italics and bolding).

Until someone can show hard data that the lag not only exists, but got worse due to the software 'update', then outsiders will see this as just venting. Even something like a videotaped drag run of two cars wouldn't be hard data, (though it would look cool, and might help other's like me to get involved).

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by slubu

After this weekend I will have driven a stock MSD80 pre 29.2, stock MSD81, a JB3 MSD81 and a Dinan Stage II MSD81 (all 6MT). I will report back regarding lag feels and such. I would really love to get my hands on a stock MSD80 post 29.2.

Edit: Just to clarify, it is not to promote one tune or another, but rather see if by comparing we can understand more about this lag, and what various tunes do to rectify it, reduce it, or maybe nothing at all, and consequently be better prepared to address the root of the problem.

Any chance you'll have the V81 and pre 29.2 V80 at the same time and same location that you could do a handful of pulls side by side and record them from one car??

And not that it helps YOU for getting feel for them back to back to back (to back ) but, I am a stock 6mt V80 29.2.

Ooh, and I might as well post my prediction for order of lag:
Stock V80 pre 29.2/Dinan tie (Dinan may SEEM quicker/less lag, but that's just because it IS quicker) < JB3 < V81

[slubu]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Any chance you'll have the V81 and pre 29.2 V80 at the same time and same location that you could do a handful of pulls side by side and record them from one car??

And not that it helps YOU for getting feel for them back to back to back (to back ) but, I am a stock 6mt V80 29.2.

Ooh, and I might as well post my prediction for order of lag:
Stock V80 pre 29.2/Dinan tie (Dinan may SEEM quicker/less lag, but that's just because it IS quicker) < JB3 < V81

No I won't have the pre 29.2 V80 around, that is just a coworker's car that he let me drive for a bit - he is not really that involved in this battle and would not let me borrow his car for runs or anything like that.

[slubu]

Originally Posted by iScream

I think I may have found a way to determine your version number without the dealer's assistance. This is just one data point, so don't get all excited.

First, see this URL:
http://www.mabm.fr/forums/index.php?...20&#entry59416

As that guy suggests, it's probably the year and day of the software. Yeah, there are probably exceptions to the rule, but I wonder if this technique doesn't apply to most of us.

When you do the hidden menu trick, you get a "FunctionalSoftwareVersion" under the Applikation tab. Mine says 008.087.001, and I know for sure I have 29.2 because my dealership told me so. That would be March 27, 2008, which sounds about right for 29.2. How about you guys? Any v30'ers care to report, as well as pre-29.2'ers?

I have the same software version. MS81 5/08 build (according to door jamb), but 4/08 build according to I-drive diagnostic screen.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by slubu

No I won't have the pre 29.2 V80 around, that is just a coworker's car that he let me drive for a bit - he is not really that involved in this battle and would not let me borrow his car for runs or anything like that.

He'll be sorry once he takes it in for service!

So now that you've driven it though, I take it you know exactly what the impact feels like.

[iScream]

Originally Posted by Mech_Man

Until someone can show hard data that the lag not only exists, but got worse due to the software 'update', then outsiders will see this as just venting. Even something like a videotaped drag run of two cars wouldn't be hard data, (though it would look cool, and might help other's like me to get involved).

I have a video that contradicts the marketing on the web site, but I have not posted it because I want to do a side-by-side comparison with the same experiment on a pre-29.2 car.

I taped my tachometer and speedometer going WOT at <3k RPM and then again at 3500 RPM. The lag, which you can detect by doing a frame-by-frame analysis of the video (or just listening very carefully, or just driving the car) is around 1.6 seconds at the lower RPMs and is less than a half a second at the higher RPMs. Before 29.2, the latter result is what many of us enjoyed down to 1500 RPM.

[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by iScream

I have a video that contradicts the marketing on the web site, but I have not posted it because I want to do a side-by-side comparison with the same experiment on a pre-29.2 car.

I taped my tachometer and speedometer going WOT at <3k RPM and then again at 3500 RPM. The lag, which you can detect by doing a frame-by-frame analysis of the video (or just listening very carefully, or just driving the car) is around 1.6 seconds at the lower RPMs and is less than a half a second at the higher RPMs. Before 29.2, the latter result is what many of us enjoyed down to 1500 RPM.

could you please post it. i want to compare my car. thanks.

[tek818]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

If this is a map about the 29.2 effects, then I suspect not one of these guys is looking for a tune. I don't understand why the pop in here to try to sell some V3's?

::remove head from ass::

[coco_m3]

[MrZippy]

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166275

I think this current thread may help the cause....

[boostm3]

I dont have a bmw with the N54 engine but Ive been thinking about buying a 135 so Ive been following this very closely.. Back before I bought my '99 M3 which I supercharged and am still loving driving, I drove a '95 Volvo 850 turbo. . On that OBDI car, the waste gate was controlled by a long threaded rod, the adjustment of which was accomplished by moving the bolt which shortened or lengthened the rod.. The lag or lack of lag you guys are describing sounds exactly what I was able to adjust with that rod.. Stock, the turbo kicked in hard but after a delay.. By shortening that rod, I could reduce lag so much that it could become almost undriveable. I mean, shortened to the 'nth' degree, a tap of the throttle would spin the tires. And this was an automatic tranny too! So I settled on the length I wanted, and to me it made all the difference in the world. It made the car So much more fun to drive even though trq and power numbers stayed the same.. So I can really really appreciate how pissed you guys are.. IT would be like if the Volvo dealer lengthened that waste gate rod without my having any ability to return it to what I had been enjoying, and with the Dealer claiming it drives the same! It would drive me NUTS!! Im so pissed at BMW for doing this.. Especially BMW, supposedly THE make for enthusiasts. Bait and switch; I cant see it any other way, and it really makes me question whether I can ever buy BMW again.. Not just this bait and switch, but also the initial lack of oil coolers on these cars, and other issues as well.. Getting awfully hard to be comfortable turning over $40 large or more to these guys.

[Quisp]

Has anyone with the lag put their car on a dyno to see how the curve looks? I would really like to see what the difference between the curve BMW advertises and the one after their updated program.

[baxtr]

I posted the autoblog.com article to digg.com. Go there and digg it, if we can get this on the main page of digg, it will bring a lot of attention to this problem.

http://digg.com/autos/BMW_Software_U...es_Performance

[FunRevn]

Dugg it

[iScream]

Originally Posted by Quisp

Has anyone with the lag put their car on a dyno to see how the curve looks? I would really like to see what the difference between the curve BMW advertises and the one after their updated program.

I am not a dyno expert, nor do I play one on TV, but I've read other posts that state that the dyno tests involve very gradual acceleration. As I've pointed out a couple times, and you can test on your vehicle, it is possible to get full power at 1500-2000 RPM just like before, but only if you do it as part of a previous acceleration. So, if the stuff about the dyno tests is true, then you probably would not see any difference between a pre-29.2 dyno and 29.2 dyno.

A few people have mentioned boost tests as an alternative, but I can't offer anything meaningful to that theory either...

[visor]

Originally Posted by iScream

... it is possible to get full power at 1500-2000 RPM just like before, but only if you do it as part of a previous acceleration...

I thought you *don't* get full tq at 1500-2000 rpm with 29.2. You only get it by around 3000 rpm. Hence, the lag.


Can you clarify what you mean by part of a previous acceleration?

[iScream]

Originally Posted by visor

I thought you *don't* get full tq at 1500-2000 rpm with 29.2. You only get it by around 3000 rpm. Hence, the lag.


Can you clarify what you mean by part of a previous acceleration?

I mean you can mask The Lag by gradually depressing the accelerator.

It's possible that it's still not at full torque, and it's just an illusion due to the fact that you DO get full torque after ~2 seconds when you go WOT. Only a dyno would actually prove it. However, to me, it seems like The Lag takes a certain amount of TIME after you start accelerating, regardless of RPM. So, if you gun it a little, take it from 1500 to 2000 and then slowly gun it some more, I think you'll have that pre-29.2 feel, even before 3300 RPM. My video capture shows that I started seeing noticeable boost around 2900 RPM, even when I went WOT at 2000 RPM.

I guess "full torque" is kind of a misnomer. I should have said something like detectable turbo boost, because I really have no way of knowing the difference between 275 lb ft at 2900 RPM vs 300 lb ft at 3300 RPM.

I will test more on this observation, and maybe even video some of it.

Maybe this is what BMW meant with their doublespeak about smoother acceleration in 29.2. lol

[slubu]

OK, are these not the same symptoms we have?????

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=22
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=38

Solution???:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=35


Yet, I saw bmwmike has checked in on the 29.2 threads. So what the hell is going on?

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by slubu

OK, are these not the same symptoms we have?????

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=22
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=38

Solution???:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=35


Yet, I saw bmwmike has checked in on the 29.2 threads. So what the hell is going on?

The two problems are completely unrelated. What the hell is going on is that Mike had a reset issue pertaining to the fuel pump, which was fixed. Now two years later, he has 29.2. His fuel pump reset had nothing to do with open wastegate duty cycles and was purely a one off situation, I believe.

On a separate note... TWELVE HOURS til I drop my car off with the regional rep. Unfortunately, I won't be able to take the car out with him (the dealer is just having me drop it off for the day, so when he gets there, he can check it out.) so, I put together a whole packet of info and proof, etc etc, for him to peruse.

[tyler9595]

Slubu, as I posted about 25 pages ago...My HPFP was replaced in May. They also updated me to 29.2 at the same time. I immediately complained about the lag. The dealership then called me back to reset adaptations...FWIW it didnt do shit to help my car.

[tyler9595]

Originally Posted by Mech_Man

I've read this entire thread and am also quite concerned about getting as good a car as we can get, (however, mine is a 05/2008-built e92 and don't think I ever test drove a pre 29.2 car so I'm guessing that I don't know what I'm missing).

Yeah, I think that's it.

I can only speak for myself...but I dont think dyno pulls are really going to help us. The dealers know there's a problem. IMHO, BMW just decided that the original pre-29.2 tune was too aggressive and they were going to lose their asses on repairs. So, they de-tuned the car on the assumption that only a small percentage of us would even notice. So far, it looks like that bet is paying off for them.