[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

That wasn't covered until the Business 102 class

I don't see why any company needs to defend the price they are charging. Heck they could ask 10k and i wouldn't blame them. I just would not buy the product since its not worth at price to me. More power to them if they make more money. This bickering over production costs is stupid at best and Shiv and Adrian are Playing into the hands of their competitors arguing about it.

Utter waste of time.

Harry
Let the battle continue

[Ilma]

Lol.....Drives: Huge Ego Issues

[valerun]

Hi guys, a bit of a n00b here but read up on a bunch of stuff you experts all suggested here (even bought that book about turbo engines etc on amazon :-).

Anyway, what I was going to say is this. After reading through 43 pages of stuff here I did make a [tentative] conclusion that PROcede is likely technically superior and safer for my car.

HOWEVER, when I was on the market for the tune a couple of months back, I ended up choosing JB3. For the following reasons:

1. Vishnu site contains near ZERO information on the mods he sells. The meth page is a good example - http://www.vishnutuning.com/methanol.htm. Seriously, 4 words, $875 and 'Order' button...
2. Most of the links that are pointing to the forum from the procede tune page are broken - http://www.vishnutuning.com/RevIICAN.htm.
3. When I asked some questions about the tunes from both vendors, I got response from Procede guys in 2 days and from Terry in ...7 MINUTES.

I hope that the above will not induce more flame but a simple understanding that paying attention to this kind of stuff will do much more good to PROcede business than bashing JB3 on forums. After all, I am guessing that a very small % of first-time tune buyers have time to go through multiple 40+ page threads to figure things out. And even a smaller % CAN figure things out based on the shreds of vague info in those threads...

I am half-expecting a typical engineer's response to this like: 'screw you, our product is better and if you can't see for yourself, it's your n00b fault' or 'we spend all our time on engineering and don'e have time for this marketing BS'. That would be really sad. Some good marketing and comparative feature explanation at the point where people make decisions on which tune to buy would do wonders here...

Anyway, hope you guys continue pushing the envelope on understanding these beautiful machines!

Thanks,
V.

[maui86]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Hey T...hows that install going man!

i haven't finished yet haha. not because it's hard, i'm just very very meticulous when it comes to wiring and routing so i want it to be neat(even though i'll never see it.)

i know the instructions show people not using the wire loom, but i figured, if shiv provided it, i paid for it, so i want to use it. turns out, that thing is a pain to put on and i'm glad i did so before attempting to feed the wires through the hole and wrapping it while under the car. took me like 45mins to wrap and tape the thing so it would look nice. then i made it tight and taped it to ensure it can't get snipped or cut. haha. of course i checked to make sure all connections are tight and inspected for cracks or holes in the lines. it started to drizzle so i had to end the install(thought it was gonna rain). once i put everything away, the sun came out...go figure.

times like these i wish i had a garage. i dont have the spare time at the moment. most likely monday. i just gotta route the line under the car, install the pipe, and connect the lines and wires. :-) should be like 30-40mins left.

wow...i made this post longer than needed. haha.

teri

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by valerun

HOWEVER, when I was on the market for the tune a couple of months back, I ended up choosing JB3.

If you ask me, I think you made the right choice (given you only had these 2 options). You probably qualify to a free upgrade to the next version of the JB3 hardware, the G4, and also BMS guys postings seem alot more polite and their answers are short and technically-inclined and easy to follow, whereas when someone from Vishnu posts an answer 80% of is marketing bullshit and bashing BMS, 10 percent is saying that engine tuning is rocket science and BMS is not good at it, 5 percent are the word "knock", and the rest is some twisted technical stuff that doesn't always make sense.

[lyndon_h]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

If you ask me, I think you made the right choice (given you only had these 2 options). You probably qualify to a free upgrade to the next version of the JB3 hardware, the G4, and also BMS guys postings seem alot more polite and their answers are short and technically-inclined and easy to follow, whereas when someone from Vishnu posts an answer 80% of is marketing bullshit and bashing BMS, 10 percent is saying that engine tuning is rocket science and BMS is not good at it, 5 percent are the word "knock", and the rest is some twisted technical stuff that doesn't always make sense.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there is a HUGE delta in the knowledge between the two camps (or at least how the knowledge is presented). Personally, I wouldn't care about a couple of hundred bucks when it comes to my cars engine. You can blow a few hundred bucks in a night at the strip club with your boys. I plan on keeping my car for another 6 years.
I would want the smartest and most knowledgeable people tuning my car. It seems that one camp has this trait. And its not even close.

[fisherbln]

Originally Posted by valerun

1. Vishnu site contains near ZERO information on the mods he sells. The meth page is a good example - http://www.vishnutuning.com/methanol.htm. Seriously, 4 words, $875 and 'Order' button...
2. Most of the links that are pointing to the forum from the procede tune page are broken - http://www.vishnutuning.com/RevIICAN.htm.

I have to agree with this. When I was deciding between the two, the Vishnu site almost sealed the deal for me to buy a JB3. Then I spent time investigating on e90post and changed my mind to the Procede. I wish the Vishnu team would spend a little bit of time keeping their website up to date. The majority of buyers (I would bet) don't even visit web forums.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by valerun

Hi guys, a bit of a n00b here but read up on a bunch of stuff you experts all suggested here (even bought that book about turbo engines etc on amazon :-).

Anyway, what I was going to say is this. After reading through 43 pages of stuff here I did make a [tentative] conclusion that PROcede is likely technically superior and safer for my car.

HOWEVER, when I was on the market for the tune a couple of months back, I ended up choosing JB3. For the following reasons:

1. Vishnu site contains near ZERO information on the mods he sells. The meth page is a good example - http://www.vishnutuning.com/methanol.htm. Seriously, 4 words, $875 and 'Order' button...
2. Most of the links that are pointing to the forum from the procede tune page are broken - http://www.vishnutuning.com/RevIICAN.htm.
3. When I asked some questions about the tunes from both vendors, I got response from Procede guys in 2 days and from Terry in ...7 MINUTES.

I hope that the above will not induce more flame but a simple understanding that paying attention to this kind of stuff will do much more good to PROcede business than bashing JB3 on forums. After all, I am guessing that a very small % of first-time tune buyers have time to go through multiple 40+ page threads to figure things out. And even a smaller % CAN figure things out based on the shreds of vague info in those threads...

I am half-expecting a typical engineer's response to this like: 'screw you, our product is better and if you can't see for yourself, it's your n00b fault' or 'we spend all our time on engineering and don'e have time for this marketing BS'. That would be really sad. Some good marketing and comparative feature explanation at the point where people make decisions on which tune to buy would do wonders here...

Anyway, hope you guys continue pushing the envelope on understanding these beautiful machines!

Thanks,
V.

Don't worry about the negativity you'll see on here. Glad to see there are more people coming into this great platform.

I can understand the reason you initially chose to go with BMS...however, I would think a phone call attempt could have gotten a TON of information. Robert@vishnu usually answers in 1.3 rings. Sadly, I think many people (including myself 1 year ago) are quick to want some HP and the JB3 is a simple, effective and cheap way. That said, perhaps this is a call to vishnu to update their website? You did predict the "they have too much engineering going on to deal with marketing" haha. You're also correct that the average n00b isn't going to read this forum for 8 hours to make a decision...spending 8 hours/day on this forum is an addiction that builds over time. The 'detailed tune comparison chart' is nice, but doesn't do justice. It's a difficult situation.

Originally Posted by cstavaru

If you ask me, I think you made the right choice (given you only had these 2 options). You probably qualify to a free upgrade to the next version of the JB3 hardware, the G4, and also BMS guys postings seem alot more polite and their answers are short and technically-inclined and easy to follow, whereas when someone from Vishnu posts an answer 80% of is marketing bullshit and bashing BMS, 10 percent is saying that engine tuning is rocket science and BMS is not good at it, 5 percent are the word "knock", and the rest is some twisted technical stuff that doesn't always make sense.

1) He likely had no idea about the upgrade to G4
2) Couldn't be more wrong about the "BMS guys posting short and technically incline vs. Vishnu guys posting marketing BS and bashing BMS". This is just ridiculous...but obviously you're not going to change your mindset...
3) Vishnu constantly states that engine tuning is NOT rocket science....come on dude!
4) "the rest is some twisted technical stuff that doesn't always make sense" --hmmm, maybe time to stop creating bogus arguments and spreading nonsense, and start learning a bit about the mud you're slinging?

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

.
.
.
.
.
.
I got a new ride
<---

ok.... my apologies for contributing to all this talk of copying/cost of manufacturing/etc. Probably best that we get back on topic.

Man, I heard that ride brings the ruckus to the N54s/55s...

[itsbrokeagain]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

See my next post, my intention was, its cool for people to learn...

But starting to learn after having full bolt ons, Meth, 18+ PSI, nitrous? upgraded turbos? Then you start asking about ignition timing? and Air fuel? How to read logs? how to produce logs? What they mean?

Thats like paying for a wedding and forgetting to ask the bride if she want to marry you, its simply backwards.

This.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

4)
--hmmm, maybe time to stop creating bogus arguments and spreading nonsense, and start learning a bit about the mud you're slinging?

And That!

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by lyndon_h

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there is a HUGE delta in the knowledge between the two camps (or at least how the knowledge is presented). Personally, I wouldn't care about a couple of hundred bucks when it comes to my cars engine. You can blow a few hundred bucks in a night at the strip club with your boys. I plan on keeping my car for another 6 years.
I would want the smartest and most knowledgeable people tuning my car. It seems that one camp has this trait. And its not even close.

^This...

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by fisherbln

I have to agree with this. When I was deciding between the two, the Vishnu site almost sealed the deal for me to buy a JB3. Then I spent time investigating on e90post and changed my mind to the Procede. I wish the Vishnu team would spend a little bit of time keeping their website up to date. The majority of buyers (I would bet) don't even visit web forums.

I think they need to work on their site design, currency of information and such also.

But let me say this, all it takes is a tad of willingness to learn something about the tune/people and FI itself, and you will know which is the better of the 2 piggyback systems and what to buy.

But, if a $12K engine doesn't mean that much to you...then just buy whatever is a few bucks cheaper and convince yourself you have the best piggy back for the N54 and move on with your life.

[Calvin@Vishnu]

The new site launching within the next 2-3 weeks

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

If you ask me, I think you made the right choice (given you only had these 2 options). You probably qualify to a free upgrade to the next version of the JB3 hardware, the G4, and also BMS guys postings seem alot more polite and their answers are short and technically-inclined and easy to follow, whereas when someone from Vishnu posts an answer 80% of is marketing bullshit and bashing BMS, 10 percent is saying that engine tuning is rocket science and BMS is not good at it, 5 percent are the word "knock", and the rest is some twisted technical stuff that doesn't always make sense.

Firstly, the last standalone management tune I bought didnt say more then the price, and 98% of the people still bought it, so that already holds no water.

The upgrade is not Free from BMS as they already said its between $65-80+

Shiv has no problems answering emails for anyone else.... in a timely manner and respectful manner.

Sine you dont know how the tune works the rest of your babble is still an opinion.

Things probably dont make sense, cause you dont understand, and simply post opinions.

Cute post though.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by valerun

Hi guys, a bit of a n00b here but read up on a bunch of stuff you experts all suggested here (even bought that book about turbo engines etc on amazon :-).

Anyway, what I was going to say is this. After reading through 43 pages of stuff here I did make a [tentative] conclusion that PROcede is likely technically superior and safer for my car.

HOWEVER, when I was on the market for the tune a couple of months back, I ended up choosing JB3. For the following reasons:

1. Vishnu site contains near ZERO information on the mods he sells. The meth page is a good example - http://www.vishnutuning.com/methanol.htm. Seriously, 4 words, $875 and 'Order' button...
2. Most of the links that are pointing to the forum from the procede tune page are broken - http://www.vishnutuning.com/RevIICAN.htm.
3. When I asked some questions about the tunes from both vendors, I got response from Procede guys in 2 days and from Terry in ...7 MINUTES.

I hope that the above will not induce more flame but a simple understanding that paying attention to this kind of stuff will do much more good to PROcede business than bashing JB3 on forums. After all, I am guessing that a very small % of first-time tune buyers have time to go through multiple 40+ page threads to figure things out. And even a smaller % CAN figure things out based on the shreds of vague info in those threads...

I am half-expecting a typical engineer's response to this like: 'screw you, our product is better and if you can't see for yourself, it's your n00b fault' or 'we spend all our time on engineering and don'e have time for this marketing BS'. That would be really sad. Some good marketing and comparative feature explanation at the point where people make decisions on which tune to buy would do wonders here...

Anyway, hope you guys continue pushing the envelope on understanding these beautiful machines!

Thanks,
V.

A true enthusiast who understands how things work, will do the research to find the best approach in finding what tune best fits them.

No tuning website has enough information on the main page where the price is, infact, a lot of companies that sell tunes either have their own forum, or a forum they are a vendor of to reach out to their customer base.

We are all spoiled from Terry and his insane response time, HOWEVER, it doesnt steer away from the fact that 95% of every business I dealt with over the internet, whether it be hytech headers (great custom exhaust company) or turner motorsport (BMW), Bavarian Auto, ETC ETC All had a 6HR to 2 day response time via email. Even some of the magical vendors on here had what you would consider "poor" response times, I still bought their product, knowing I wanted what I was buying cause it was good.

You got questions right away, you pick up the phone, thats how business still works.

Last but not least, price should not be a good way of determining which tune to buy, but what makes it tick and how it benefits you as the user is whats important.

FWIW Vishnu is doing just fine and they have sold a lot of units.... I dont think they are about to make a 20 page introduction to their tune on their website cause of your post.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

A true enthusiast who understands how things work, will do the research to find the best approach in finding what tune best fits them.

No tuning website has enough information on the main page where the price is, infact, a lot of companies that sell tunes either have their own forum, or a forum they are a vendor of to reach out to their customer base.

We are all spoiled from Terry and his insane response time, HOWEVER, it doesnt steer away from the fact that 95% of every business I dealt with over the internet, whether it be hytech headers (great custom exhaust company) or turner motorsport (BMW), Bavarian Auto, ETC ETC All had a 6HR to 2 day response time via email. Even some of the magical vendors on here had what you would consider "poor" response times, I still bought their product, knowing I wanted what I was buying cause it was good.

You got questions right away, you pick up the phone, thats how business still works.

Last but not least, price should not be a good way of determining which tune to buy, but what makes it tick and how it benefits you as the user is whats important.

FWIW Vishnu is doing just fine and they have sold a lot of units.... I dont think they are about to make a 20 page introduction to their tune on their website cause of your post.

oh yeah!!!!

everything that is presented on the internet will not always pan out. but the belief is that "i can get all the information i need, in the shortest amount of time.. hell, i just google it."

asking open ended questions (to a variety of vendors) will get you closer to your dream of a fast car, than clicking the mouse and hoping for the best.

the what ifs, and the how come, and how does it do that will serve you better than to assess the worth of a tuner based on their website.

id rather spend time in the garage, track, street or dyno -- than pounding out a great website that is attractive... making cars go fast is priority .. period!!

fancy-smancy website !! hell of a lot that will do for you on the side of the highway or at the turn off road at the end of track...

not putting anyone down, but get into the game ... dont just armchair your horsepower

[fisherbln]

Originally Posted by techlogik

I think they need to work on their site design, currency of information and such also.

But let me say this, all it takes is a tad of willingness to learn something about the tune/people and FI itself, and you will know which is the better of the 2 piggyback systems and what to buy.

But, if a $12K engine doesn't mean that much to you...then just buy whatever is a few bucks cheaper and convince yourself you have the best piggy back for the N54 and move on with your life.

Agreed. That's why I ended up with a Procede.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

oh yeah!!!!

everything that is presented on the internet will not always pan out. but the belief is that "i can get all the information i need, in the shortest amount of time.. hell, i just google it."

asking open ended questions (to a variety of vendors) will get you closer to your dream of a fast car, than clicking the mouse and hoping for the best.

the what ifs, and the how come, and how does it do that will serve you better than to assess the worth of a tuner based on their website.

id rather spend time in the garage, track, street or dyno -- than pounding out a great website that is attractive... making cars go fast is priority .. period!!

fancy-smancy website !! hell of a lot that will do for you on the side of the highway or at the turn off road at the end of track...

not putting anyone down, but get into the game ... dont just armchair your horsepower

You know what I realized, a website can put all this cute stuff making their tune look good, and guess what,its going to be a biased opinion anyway.

Who cares what the site says, how bout unbiased opinions found elsewhere, and information from a 3rd party.

As it is right now we have "fastest tune" and "best tune" and yea yea yea...

Thats cute... This all works back to, if you want the best tune, how bout you find out how they work.

***

Maybe back on topic, as this subject is near pointless.

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Good points here. Maybe I wont launch the new website after all

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

You know what I realized, a website can put all this cute stuff making their tune look good, and guess what,its going to be a biased opinion anyway.

Who cares what the site says, how bout unbiased opinions found elsewhere, and information from a 3rd party.

As it is right now we have "fastest tune" and "best tune" and yea yea yea...

Thats cute... This all works back to, if you want the best tune, how bout you find out how they work.

***

Maybe back on topic, as this subject is near pointless.

i am soo with you on that.. but i think this discussion could be furthered if people did get involved, obtain infomation -- and share it to solve this issue -- not the engine failure, but our knowledge failure.

it just seems like 2 things are happening:

1) we have a engine failure and no one knows the exact details to help continue a group effort to comprehend its potential impact on the N54.

2) we have insertion of marketing information that is on the circuitry level, and most reading will have no way to glean the information, thereby helping themselves and others.

i would hope that this would prompt even newbie-ish question concerning each of the tunes, with a requisite understanding of engine principles.

i feel a lot of people are not saying anything of substance at this moment mainly because they "feel" that whatever tune they are running is sufficient (ie powerful)... those innocent question from a guy that is new to tuning is like the old saying -- "from the mouth of babes" -- there is a lot to be unlearned, and is quite challenging.

i never knew that my first car -- needed the engine rebuilt, i had not ventured into something like that before.. it took me some time and a lot of questions to mechanics and the machine shop to get it all back together. all im saying is lets start the process.

[cn555ic]

I am by no means an expert like some of you guys on this forum...I do admit that when it comes to modding engine performance I am a relatively newcomer, but with that said everything that I have installed on my car I have done it myself in a course of 3 years...I took the time to research and understand what each component does for and in conjunction my tune...I took time to understand what Procede effectively does and how to understand logs and data and interpret them to see how well or bad the car is doing ...As of now I can say I fully understand the tuning aspect of it....I think people really should take the time to read and learn what they are doing to there cars instead of " I really dont care as long as it gets me power attitude and is cheaper"