[valerun]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

You know what I realized, a website can put all this cute stuff making their tune look good, and guess what,its going to be a biased opinion anyway.

Who cares what the site says, how bout unbiased opinions found elsewhere, and information from a 3rd party.

As it is right now we have "fastest tune" and "best tune" and yea yea yea...

Thats cute... This all works back to, if you want the best tune, how bout you find out how they work.

***

Maybe back on topic, as this subject is near pointless.

That's all fine. I do hope they are going to fix broken links at the least (70% of links on Procede v2 page!). This is just basic business hygiene.

I agree that one SHOULD go through all the trouble to learn all this stuff before one subjects one's $12k engine to potential abuse. But the reality is that if you, as a business, don't help people learn, 95% won't and will go with what 'feels' better. Some marketing 101 here, maybe 102 .

I am not saying Vishnu is not doing well because of all this - very well may be they are doing quite fine, I don't know. All I am saying is that they could do that much better with the market segment that is not as technically hardcore as you guys (which, BTW, is likely 80%+ of this market - not hardcore, I mean).

Just my thoughts on the topic :-).

PS. I also don't care about a couple hundred bucks when it comes to my car. Heck, I think I will buy Procede just to see how it's different. But broken links and absence of readily available info (not through 8 hour browsing on forums) costs customer confidence [again, for those of us who don't have a degree in turbo car tuning ;-)]...

V

[vasillalov]

May I remind everyone that our stock turbos can only reach 17.52 boost at choke point. Source:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=21

Why the hell would you crank it up to 18+ psi, run methanol injection and then hope for safety?

I am just throwing this out there....

[valerun]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

May I remind everyone that our stock turbos can only reach 17.52 boost at choke point. Source:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=21

Why the hell would you crank it up to 18+ psi, run methanol injection and then hope for safety?

I am just throwing this out there....

from what I understand, the choke point is just a point where efficiency drops below certain point. Doesn't necessarily mean the turbo can't pump more, it just becomes very inefficient quickly past that point, no?

[vasillalov]

From the sticky thread:



It would appear that anything above 2.2 bar total pressure is out of the desired efficiency level given max flow.

2.2 bar total pressure = 31.9 psi. This means that 31.9 - 14.5 = 17.4 psi of boost is where the max should be kept at. Anything above that you are falling off the efficiency scale rapidly.

Also, from what I can see, at max flow, basically WOT, these turbos will not flow much more at 2.4 bar (20.3 psi) than they would at 2.2 bar (17.4 psi). It would seem to me that anything above 2.2 bar puts you into the point of diminishing returns. You are simply generating more heat and not flow. More heat = more prone to knocking.


So I ask again: if those stock turbos are not able to flow anything significant at 20 psi compared to 17 psi, whats the point of running meth and hoping for any sort of safety?

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by valerun

That's all fine. I do hope they are going to fix broken links at the least (70% of links on Procede v2 page!). This is just basic business hygiene.

I agree that one SHOULD go through all the trouble to learn all this stuff before one subjects one's $12k engine to potential abuse. But the reality is that if you, as a business, don't help people learn, 95% won't and will go with what 'feels' better. Some marketing 101 here, maybe 102 .

I am not saying Vishnu is not doing well because of all this - very well may be they are doing quite fine, I don't know. All I am saying is that they could do that much better with the market segment that is not as technically hardcore as you guys (which, BTW, is likely 80%+ of this market - not hardcore, I mean).

Just my thoughts on the topic :-).

PS. I also don't care about a couple hundred bucks when it comes to my car. Heck, I think I will buy Procede just to see how it's different. But broken links and absence of readily available info (not through 8 hour browsing on forums) costs customer confidence [again, for those of us who don't have a degree in turbo car tuning ;-)]...

V

vale,

a couple of points you made above are the main reason you want to know more about tuning. we have gotten into the habit of information processing via internet statistics.

when you decide to tune your car, look at the worst case scenario as if it were going to happen "right now" -- what is the worst thing that can happen if i install this component? how much will it cost me in the long run? can i recover and remain financially stable? or will this ruin some of my future plans or goals. cuz s*** does happen when you tune a car -- mild or wild.

educating the consumer is something for laptops, gaming systems and refrigerators and appliances. Technical information necessary to safely tune your car and protect your investment comes with book time, face to face talks, breaking something and putting it back together -- but better. its not some goal out of reach, but there an investment required -- your time and attention -- sorting through details and stuff like that.

If you need a more powerful, quicker car, and you dont have time for all the learning stuff.. maybe you need a new ride

i know everyone schedule are tight, but tuning is grass roots level...
unless you have the resources to support a potential incident.

[techlogik]

If I may do some people a service, if they made it this far, and want to learn and know more based on many people's suggestions to read and know some history.....

Well...people are bumping some old threads. This link below is a great one. It directly relates to not only the history of Shiv/Mike/Terry and the discussion of timing control...but you might learn something...click the below link, it speaks volumes and you would have thought it was posted just yesterday...


http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282443


Enjoy!

[themyst]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

From the sticky thread:



It would appear that anything above 2.2 bar total pressure is out of the desired efficiency level given max flow.

2.2 bar total pressure = 31.9 psi. This means that 31.9 - 14.5 = 17.4 psi of boost is where the max should be kept at. Anything above that you are falling off the efficiency scale rapidly.

Also, from what I can see, at max flow, basically WOT, these turbos will not flow much more at 2.4 bar (20.3 psi) than they would at 2.2 bar (17.4 psi). It would seem to me that anything above 2.2 bar puts you into the point of diminishing returns. You are simply generating more heat and not flow. More heat = more prone to knocking.


So I ask again: if those stock turbos are not able to flow anything significant at 20 psi compared to 17 psi, whats the point of running meth and hoping for any sort of safety?

If what you say is true, then why do some (including myself) net 10 more whp on 18.5 psi vs 17.5? Just giving an example.

[OpenFlash]

Adiabatic effectiency isn't nearly as big of an issue as some people seem to think for some reason. This is because intercoolers and/or meth remove most/all of the heat introduced in the compression stage. This is also why compressor maps aren't very useful in dictating real world performance. Far more important is turbine maps. But they don't look as glamorous and are harder to read/understand.

Shiv

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by techlogik

If I may do some people a service, if they made it this far, and want to learn and know more based on many people's suggestions to read and know some history.....

Well...people are bumping some old threads. This link below is a great one. It directly relates to not only the history of Shiv/Mike/Terry and the discussion of timing control...but you might learn something...click the below link, it speaks volumes and you would have thought it was posted just yesterday...


http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282443


Enjoy!

Thanks, that's a good read.

[OpenFlash]

Seems like yesterday

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Adiabatic effectiency isn't nearly as big of an issue as some people seem to think for some reason. This is because intercoolers and/or meth remove most/all of the heat introduced in the compression stage. This is also why compressor maps aren't very useful in dictating real world performance. Far more important is turbine maps. But they don't look as glamorous and are harder to read/understand.

Shiv

Funny......was just reading that about turbines vs compressors in Corky's book last night.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Adiabatic effectiency isn't nearly as big of an issue as some people seem to think for some reason. This is because intercoolers and/or meth remove most/all of the heat introduced in the compression stage. This is also why compressor maps aren't very useful in dictating real world performance. Far more important is turbine maps. But they don't look as glamorous and are harder to read/understand.

Shiv

Originally Posted by techlogik

If I may do some people a service, if they made it this far, and want to learn and know more based on many people's suggestions to read and know some history.....

Well...people are bumping some old threads. This link below is a great one. It directly relates to not only the history of Shiv/Mike/Terry and the discussion of timing control...but you might learn something...click the below link, it speaks volumes and you would have thought it was posted just yesterday...


http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282443


Enjoy!

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

vale,

a couple of points you made above are the main reason you want to know more about tuning. we have gotten into the habit of information processing via internet statistics.

when you decide to tune your car, look at the worst case scenario as if it were going to happen "right now" -- what is the worst thing that can happen if i install this component? how much will it cost me in the long run? can i recover and remain financially stable? or will this ruin some of my future plans or goals. cuz s*** does happen when you tune a car -- mild or wild.

educating the consumer is something for laptops, gaming systems and refrigerators and appliances. Technical information necessary to safely tune your car and protect your investment comes with book time, face to face talks, breaking something and putting it back together -- but better. its not some goal out of reach, but there an investment required -- your time and attention -- sorting through details and stuff like that.

If you need a more powerful, quicker car, and you dont have time for all the learning stuff.. maybe you need a new ride

i know everyone schedule are tight, but tuning is grass roots level...
unless you have the resources to support a potential incident.

Dude, Spot ON!

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

i am soo with you on that.. but i think this discussion could be furthered if people did get involved, obtain infomation -- and share it to solve this issue -- not the engine failure, but our knowledge failure.

it just seems like 2 things are happening:

1) we have a engine failure and no one knows the exact details to help continue a group effort to comprehend its potential impact on the N54.

2) we have insertion of marketing information that is on the circuitry level, and most reading will have no way to glean the information, thereby helping themselves and others.

i would hope that this would prompt even newbie-ish question concerning each of the tunes, with a requisite understanding of engine principles.

i feel a lot of people are not saying anything of substance at this moment mainly because they "feel" that whatever tune they are running is sufficient (ie powerful)... those innocent question from a guy that is new to tuning is like the old saying -- "from the mouth of babes" -- there is a lot to be unlearned, and is quite challenging.

i never knew that my first car -- needed the engine rebuilt, i had not ventured into something like that before.. it took me some time and a lot of questions to mechanics and the machine shop to get it all back together. all im saying is lets start the process.

+1 to all of that. Finally some level headed people and good responses!

[BrianMN]

Perhaps the high boosters should check their spark plugs regularly, maybe every 2000 miles? Id assume there would be oil visible on the plug after the slightest ringland crackage. Plugs can really tell a lot about how an engine is running

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

May I remind everyone that our stock turbos can only reach 17.52 boost at choke point. Source:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=21

Why the hell would you crank it up to 18+ psi, run methanol injection and then hope for safety?

I am just throwing this out there....

+10

Seriously this running methanol is for the birds. Why not run higher octance race gas? oh cause its more expensive? balance that cost against rebuilding your engine.

And what about these boost numbers, absolute madness.. 16-17 psi should be the absolute max and even that should not be hit consistently.

Even tho there have only been a handful of engine failures b/c of this ..can u imagine how much wear and tear is happening on those engines over a period of time..it would be interesting down the line to see how all these meth users' engines will hold up.

Reflash and high octane gas..the way to go IMHO.

[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by tibra1

+10

Seriously this running methanol is for the birds. Why not run higher octance race gas? oh cause its more expensive? balance that cost against rebuilding your engine.

And what about these boost numbers, absolute madness.. 16-17 psi should be the absolute max and even that should not be hit consistently.

Even tho there have only been a handful of engine failures b/c of this ..can u imagine how much wear and tear is happening on those engines over a period of time..it would be interesting down the line to see how all these meth users' engines will hold up.

Reflash and high octane gas..the way to go IMHO.

I think you should read the forums carefully in order to understand more until stating some facts... There is so much information to read/absorb. I thought just like you about 3 years ago but slowly, while seeing the methanol thing developing and the people's experience/dynos/logs with it I came to realize that properly used this is a real good power adder that saves tons of money and it is also convenient: what if you have half a tank pump gas and you want to attend a racing event tomorrow ?

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

I think you should read the forums carefully in order to understand more until stating some facts... There is so much information to read/absorb. I thought just like you about 3 years ago but slowly, while seeing the methanol thing developing and the people's experience/dynos/logs with it I came to realize that properly used this is a real good power adder that saves tons of money and it is also convenient: what if you have half a tank pump gas and you want to attend a racing event tomorrow ?

Exactly what facts am I missing..I have been on this forum for over two years and had the first production run on the 335i -9/06..plus i have completely modded my car so I am not as clueless as you would suggest.

U hit the nail on the head about meth.."saving money" and "when used properly" in real world scenarios all it takes is one slip up and your engine may be comprimised..also there is the whole process of having to constantly monitor and log..now may be your car is dedicated to racing and your are willing to accept the risks and responsibilities as most racers do..(i.e constantly monitoring logs, taking apart engine components for inspection etc)

To each there own I just don't think hooking up a window washer pump w meth is the way to go with these cars..or piggys for that matter.

And last I checked most race tracks sell racing fuel..so your argument about half tank and wanting to go racing makes no sense.

[dzenno]

Hooking up a "windshield washer pump"??? you're clearly VERY misinformed after 2 years

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Hooking up a "windshield washer pump"??? you're clearly VERY misinformed after 2 years

You know what I am saying..analogous to that,,not literal

[dzenno]

If you meant to write "tank" instead of "pump" then ok..

[tibra1]

I am not saying using meth is wrong but it has serious risks..but then, we wouldn’t have 45 page posts about engine failure due to improper meth use..lol

Its hilarious..like people who smoke their whole lives and then sue the tobacco companies when they get cancer..

[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by tibra1

I am not saying using meth is wrong but it has serious risks..but then, we wouldn’t have 45 page posts about engine failure due to improper meth use..lol

Its hilarious..like people who smoke their whole lives and then sue the tobacco companies when they get cancer..

Man, its the third engine failure (or second, I'm not sure) that showed up here in 3 years. It's not the end of the world. And also both failures were happening while running high boost like 18-20psi.

[packinDSS]

Let me throw some more fuel on the fire........COBB has had ZERO engine failures.....lol j/k

JPslick loves that comment....