[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Did someone say my name

I'm looking forward to see what else they bring to the table.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

Man, its the third engine failure (or second, I'm not sure) that showed up here in 3 years. It's not the end of the world. And also both failures were happening while running high boost like 18-20psi.

3 failures too many..and those are the ones that have been reported. Also do you know what's going with the engine internals on all the other meth users..no..any time u use meth or NOS...its a risk w potential for engine damage..and for what?.. to grab some extra power at the top end?..the benefits just dont out weigh the risk..my two cents

[MikeyComputers]

I need to thank you guys i did more reading here than my whole entire high school and college career..

thanks for all the info guys i learned truck loads...

unfortuanlty i have no idea which tune to buy...

[themyst]

Originally Posted by tibra1

3 failures too many..and those are the ones that have been reported. Also do you know what's going with the engine internals on all the other meth users..no..any time u use meth or NOS...its a risk w potential for engine damage..and for what?.. to grab some extra power at the top end?..the benefits just dont out weigh the risk..my two cents

Please explain how methanol injection poses a larger risk for engine failure than cranking the boost on race gas. It allows for charge cooling and added ignition timing. If you know something I don't, I would like to be enlightened.

[Sigma 3]

Originally Posted by themyst

Please explain how methanol injection poses a larger risk for engine failure than cranking the boost on race gas. It allows for charge cooling and added ignition timing. If you know something I don't, I would like to be enlightened.

+1
Blaming the 3 failures on meth is scapegoating. The history of meth goes back to world war 2, formula one cars, and world rally cars. So people please stop blaming meth for these failures. It has such a small part to play in the larger picture. Those that take forum speak for gospel might buy into the misinformation and spread it as truth themselves as apposed to doing some reading. Off The forums of course.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by Sigma 3

+1
Blaming the 3 failures on meth is scapegoating. The history of meth goes back to world war 2, formula one cars, and world rally cars. So people please stop blaming meth for these failures. It has such a small part to play in the larger picture. Those that take forum speak for gospel might buy into the misinformation and spread it as truth themselves as apposed to doing some reading. Off The forums of course.

Your are absolutely correct, and your statement proves my point exactly it was used in a war time and pure racing applications, where the risks of damaging engines are acceptable, b/c the goal is to win beyond any cost. Racers will tear down and inspect/rebuild after each event more or less. Military has near endless resources to do the same or replace engines all together.

Now if you wanna adopt that philosphy for a street car...fine.. all I'm sayin is using meth on the street is not without risk b/c you have to maintain close control over meth flow, have fail safes and constantly monitor and log whats going with an engine... I have no idea if meth is soley to blame for these failures but isnt it a plausible theory that it contributed to them along with the ridculously high boost?

I stand by my original statement...the risk of engine damage do not out weigh the benefits of grabing an extra 20 hp..there is a point where moding these cars gives dimnishing returns.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by tibra1

3 failures too many..and those are the ones that have been reported. Also do you know what's going with the engine internals on all the other meth users..no..any time u use meth or NOS...its a risk w potential for engine damage..and for what?.. to grab some extra power at the top end?..the benefits just dont out weigh the risk..my two cents

You should probably weigh the end users actions and the tuning before simply blaming methanol itself....

There are people here with years of methanol use without a problem.

Ive seen more failures on bolt on Honda engines then on this car, so 3 is hardly anything to cry home about.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by themyst

Please explain how methanol injection poses a larger risk for engine failure than cranking the boost on race gas. It allows for charge cooling and added ignition timing. If you know something I don't, I would like to be enlightened.

Cards on the table ..everyone knows meth is used vs running higher octane fuel b/c its MUCH CHEAPER..period.

You have to maintain close control over meth flow, have fail safes and constantly monitor and log whats going with an engine, b/c its an external power adder..you need to maintain MUCH more control over whats happening w its flow and marrying that to the boost being run..Using higher octane fuel your are not introducing anything externally..u put 100 octane you have an anti-knock index of 100. It is consistent and as long as you don't run excessive boost its safer. I agree using race fuel doesn't mean you should being boosting to 18+ psi..

I will concede your point about meth signifcantly cooling IATs, there is no arguing that. But again other safer ways, larger intercoolers, CAIs, ducting etc.

One of the vendors on here said it best..what levels of power do people expect out of these engines before there are consequences...there is a limit to everything.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by tibra1

Your are absolutely correct, and your statement proves my point exactly it was used in a war time and pure racing applications, where the risks of damaging engines are acceptable, b/c the goal is to win beyond any cost. Racers will tear down and inspect/rebuild after each event more or less. Military has near endless resources to do the same or replace engines all together.

Now if you wanna adopt that philosphy for a street car...fine.. all I'm sayin is using meth on the street is not without risk b/c you have to maintain close control over meth flow, have fail safes and constantly monitor and log whats going with an engine... I have no idea if meth is soley to blame for these failures but isnt it a plausible theory that it contributed to them along with the ridculously high boost?

I stand by my original statement...the risk of engine damage do not out weigh the benefits of grabing an extra 20 hp..there is a point where moding these cars gives dimnishing returns.

Anyone with common sense WILL run with methanol failsafes, and especially with the JB4/Procede and their methanol mapping, makes the risk virtually none. They both offer overflow protection, reducing boost on reduced flow, and other features that ensure the engine is not subjected to high boost levels at the stock ignition set point on pump gas only.

By your logic, only methanol is to blame for engine failures. The truth is, you could grenade a motor at 15psi on pump gas (which isn't over-the-top) as evidenced by a customer who did so back years ago on the original Procede rev.1.

And to be fair, the OP who had the engine failure in this thread had his failsafe disconnected and was running on a JB3 which did not have this progressive methanol feature which the latest JB tune and Procede have.

I would encourage you to do some more research before blindly attributing the engine failure to methanol itself.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

You should probably weigh the end users actions and the tuning before simply blaming methanol itself....

There are people here with years of methanol use without a problem.

Ive seen more failures on bolt on Honda engines then on this car, so 3 is hardly anything to cry home about.

Oh i agree, meth by itself is not to blame. Its more the mentality that some that you can simply keep modding and extracting power outta of these engines w/o consquence.

But given that these cars are just about 4 years old, and meth use on them really didnt get going till say 2 years ago? I think its premature to determine whats safe for these cars, never mind Hondas.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by tibra1

Cards on the table ..everyone knows meth is used vs running higher octane fuel b/c its MUCH CHEAPER..period.

You have to maintain close control over meth flow, have fail safes and constantly monitor and log whats going with an engine, b/c its an external power adder..you need to maintain MUCH more control over whats happening w its flow and marrying that to the boost being run..Using higher octane fuel your are not introducing anything externally..u put 100 octane you have an anti-knock index of 100. It is consistent and as long as you don't run excessive boost its safer. I agree using race fuel doesn't mean you should being boosting to 18+ psi..

I will concede your point about meth signifcantly cooling IATs, there is no arguing that. But again other safer ways, larger intercoolers, CAIs, ducting etc.

One of the vendors on here said it best..what levels of power do people expect out of these engines before there are consequences...there is a limit to everything.

You still aren't grasping the methanol integration the latest piggybacks offer. If meth flows, boost increased, meth stops flowing, boost reduced. You can't get any safer than that!

And FWIW, I have an aftermarket FMIC, downpipes, intake, along with methanol injection. The only thing I'm missing is the exhaust, which doesn't add much if anything.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by tibra1

Oh i agree, meth by itself is not to blame. Its more the mentality that some that you can simply keep modding and extracting power outta of these engines w/o consquence.

But given that these cars are just about 4 years old, and meth use on them really didnt get going till say 2 years ago? I think its premature to determine whats safe for these cars, never mind Hondas.

Life is a risky place....

Methanol isnt for amateurs either, and 600WHP on pump gas with a big turbo can be just as risky for the motor when we dont know its limits. (using arbitrary numbers here).

Point is, live and learn, and have fun. As long as nobody gets hurts, its just a motor.

If money can fix something, then thats good enough.

Gotta pay to play.

Want to live in fear of blowing something. Keep the car stock. No guarantees in this business.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by themyst

Anyone with common sense WILL run with methanol failsafes, and especially with the JB4/Procede and their methanol mapping, makes the risk virtually none. They both offer overflow protection, reducing boost on reduced flow, and other features that ensure the engine is not subjected to high boost levels at the stock ignition set point.

By your logic, only methanol is to blame for engine failures. The truth is, you could grenade a motor at 15psi on pump gas (which isn't over-the-top) as evidenced by a customer who did so back years ago on the original Procede rev.1.

And to be fair, the OP who had the engine failure in this thread had his failsafe disconnected and was running on a JB3 which did not have this progressive methanol feature which the latest JB tune and Procede have.

I would encourage you to do some more research before blindly attributing the engine failure to methanol itself.

Ok man, like i said in my earlier posts to each their own..but I feel I need to speak my opinion especially for the folks on here that are just under way with their modding.

You want to me say that running meth is as safe as running higher octane fuel..absolutely not..can you get more power and lower IATs w meth absolutely yes..but to what end?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by tibra1

Ok man, like i said in my earlier posts to each their own..but I feel I need to speak my opinion especially for the folks on here that are just under way with their modding.

You want to me say that running meth is as safe as running higher octane fuel..absolutely not..can you get more power and lower IATs w meth absolutely yes..but to what end?

If you say so. It's methanol, if it starts knocking at 17psi, its time to drop it. In the Procedes case, it will drop boost, reduce ignition, since it has autotuning enabled on top of the methanol integration. If it helps you sleep better at night, no one's forcing you to run meth. I am simply trying to correct you in that with the proper tune, failsafes and willingness to maintain, it is a significant power-adder that is safe to boot.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Life is a risky place....

Methanol isnt for amateurs either, and 600WHP on pump gas with a big turbo can be just as risky for the motor when we dont know its limits. (using arbitrary numbers here).

Point is, live and learn, and have fun. As long as nobody gets hurts, its just a motor.

If money can fix something, then thats good enough.

Gotta pay to play.

Want to live in fear of blowing something. Keep the car stock. No guarantees in this business.

Absolutely, and thats really all I am trying to say here is that you can reach a nice respectable 380-400 whp and ft/lbs of torque without meth.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by tibra1

Absolutely, and thats really all I am trying to say here is that you can reach a nice respectable 380-400 whp and ft/lbs of torque without meth.

And you can maintain those numbers if the meth kit ever took a dump. That's the whole point.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by themyst

If you say so. It's methanol, if it starts knocking at 17psi, its time to drop it. In the Procedes case, it will drop boost, reduce ignition, since it has autotuning enabled on top of the methanol integration. If it helps you sleep better at night, no one's forcing you to run meth. I am simply trying to correct you in that with the proper tune, failsafes and willingness to maintain, it is a significant power-adder that is safe to boot.

By the time it starts knocking the damage is already done, fractions of a second is all thats need. Obviously I am not running or going to be running meth, b/c I dont have that "willingness to maintain" and when one slip up could comprimise your engine.

I rather mod and forget about it, but then again this is the reason i went w a reflash vs piggy as well. Everyone has their preferences.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Thats why their is more the one tune available and a handful of parts to choose from and a world of different cars to buy....

Different strokes for different folks!

[FORCED AIR]

Originally Posted by Sniz

you've never spoken with Steve Dinan then have you?

he is a mudslinging expert.

This ^^^^

seriously.






yes I know it was 2 month old post

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

OH wow great post....

How many drag racers use methanol? HMMM

[shifterboy45]

race gas, menthanol injection, nitrous oxide are truly legitimate power adders -- i dont think that there is any debate to that end...

but i would like to add this as an engine builder (in the past tence) -- i would never ever recommend a guy use any of the above options unless he was willing to face the consequences -- good or bad! especially for those who are new to the horsepower game. taking a lot chances and relying on technology to support your practial knowledge is a bad combination. if youve become familiar with engine operation, and limits (yes limits) you can find a successful road to more and more horsepower.

remember the old adage-- Rome was not built in a day!!

the preplexing thing about modding your car is this -- are you an owner or not?

if you plan to keep the car, mod that thing into the ground. but if youre not, you may wanna consider the aftermath that may lay in the hands of an ususpecting 2nd owner.

i know this sounds like a buzz-kill to those on a "mod-high" --
but its food for thought

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by maxnix

How many endurance race cars use methanol?

How many OEM tubocharged or supercharged motors specify the use of methanol?

Hmmmmm.........

Yeah i wonder