[Clap135]

Originally Posted by ZTUNER

Hmmn, then knock is the only obvious answer.

Harry

I've been saying this for 47 pages lol

[BeenieMan]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I believe boom already did this and 4 th gear timing went up despite 170 iats

why would you say this when its too easy to go back and see

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491005

at 160 IATs, his 4th gear timing dropped out.... knock? or dme seeing high IATs?

at 180, his 3rd gear timing dropped, and 4th gear timing was below 0..

is that cobb tuning it down? or letting the stock dme logic do it?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by BeenieMan

why would you say this when its too easy to go back and see

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491005

at 160 IATs, his 4th gear timing dropped out.... knock? or dme seeing high IATs?

at 180, his 3rd gear timing dropped, and 4th gear timing was below 0..

is that cobb tuning it down? or letting the stock dme logic do it?

Dme logic aka knock sensor. Look at the pull with the race gas.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

I have read this for a couple of days and am I the only one that is becoming disgusted with how low we are stooping as a community? This is a BMW community! Most of us are professionals if we are to afford this car. What is happening to our community as a whole? We are starting to act like children. 2 years ago we were so much more respectful to one another, now we have a 50 page bashfest with a few key contributors calling each other names over and over and over...

Honestly guys, this is rediculous. E90post has been one of the best communities I have ever been a part of. The wealth of information is incredible. Let's not ruin this place acting like a bunch of 12 year old kids.

[Terrance28]

Originally Posted by jzmundy07

The most intelligent, analytical post in this entire pissing show.

[KyLu II]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I have read this for a couple of days and am I the only one that is becoming disgusted with how low we are stooping as a community? This is a BMW community! Most of us are professionals if we are to afford this car. What is happening to our community as a whole? We are starting to act like children. 2 years ago we were so much more respectful to one another, now we have a 50 page bashfest with a few key contributors calling each other names over and over and over...

Honestly guys, this is rediculous. E90post has been one of the best communities I have ever been a part of. The wealth of information is incredible. Let's not ruin this place acting like a bunch of 12 year old kids.

+1
I agree with you fbis, I been on this board for almost 4 years now and the nonsense these days here is unbeliable!!

[benton0311]

Trying to keep up with all the back and forth of the thread. Hope I'm not restating what's been said a million times but just my 2 cents.

From what I can tell the JB4 "rides the knock sensor" by using the factory timing control. But from what I know from past experience this may actually not be a problem at all up to a certain point. If the factory timing control and knock sensing is good enough and can adjust timing fast enough than there should be no issue riding the knock sensor up to a certain boost/horsepower level.

Sure there is no such thing as detecting "pre-knock", itself basically being a misnomer for knock in very small levels, (usually referred to as ping as opposed to detonation). However, if knock can be detected at levels low enough, early enough and timing is adjusted fast enough then there is really no problem unless it's a rotary. It's when cylinder pressures are already real high before any knock event, such as big turbos and nitrous that there becomes an issue with even small amounts of knock.

My previous car was an STi with a rotated 30R running open source ECU tune with a UTEC on top for speed density. On that setup the ECU tuning allowed for regular ignition advance up until the UTEC took over and ran fixed timing for high boost. At that level, with high boost on a 30R on a flimsy 2.5 motor even small amounts of knock could cause damage so timing was fixed and very conservative.

So it would seem to me that the JB4 riding the knock sensor on stock turbos is absolutely fine. If you were to go GT40R, twin GT28s, or N20 then even that small amount of knock could prove detrimental. But at the relatively low (for the N54) pressure levels of the stock turbos it should be acceptable. If you're looking for a turbo upgrade then full timing control is a must IMHO.

[Proper Motion LLC]

Originally Posted by M335i Oreo Package

The BMW Turbo Control System and Dinan Tuning

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recent postings on forums have suggested that Dinan is backing off on power aggressively with our 3.0L twin turbo software when the engine heat soaks. This is completely false.

First off, temperature and safety correction logic in the software are actually written by BMW, not Dinan, and are in both the Dinan and stock software. Dinan does not adjust the stock corrections or any other safety logic because we deem such actions unnecessary and potentially unsafe for the engine.

The software's strategies are as follows:

I) Ambient Air Temperature. There is a standard correction for air inlet temperature for both fuel mixture and ignition timing. These are based on air density and are standard for all engine calibrations regardless of manufacturer or fuel injection brand. These corrections work the same on both naturally aspirated and forced induction engines.
Basically, colder air is denser, which means there are more oxygen molecules going into the engine. Because of this, more fuel must be injected to maintain the proper air fuel ratio. The opposite occurs when the air is hot, in which case less fuel is injected into the engine.
A colder charge is less prone to detonation, so the ignition timing is advanced with cold air and retarded with hot air to protect the engine.

II) Overheat Protection. There is also heat exchanger efficiency software that protects the engine if it gets hot. Laws of thermodynamics tell us that to exchange heat there must be a differential in temperature, and the greater the differential the more heat is exchanged. These corrections work the same on both naturally aspirated and forced induction engines.
On a cold day when the radiator is working very well and is much colder than the block temperature, the ECU will lean out the mixture and advance the timing.
On a hot day when the radiator gets closer to the engine block temperature and the block temperature rises because of radiator inefficiency, the software anticipates the engine overheating and retards the ignition timing so the engine loses power and thereby produces less heat. In addition, the fuel mixture is richened to absorb combustion chamber heat (fuel cooling). This fuel cooling also quenches the combustion chamber and reduces the tendency to detonate or ping.

III) Detonation. When the engine is detonating (pinging) due to poor fuel quality or excess cylinder pressure, the knock control system will retard the ignition timing so the engine loses power, reducing the tendency to detonate. In addition, the fuel mixture is richened to absorb combustion chamber heat (fuel cooling) and reduce the hot metal’s tendency to cause detonation.

IV) Catalyst Protection. When the engine’s duty cycle is high (high rpm, and especially at wide open throttle in high gear), there is less time for the catalyst to cool between cylinder firings. This puts more load or heat on the catalyst, so the fuel mixture is richened to quench the catalyst in order to keep it below the temperature where it will get damaged.

Some additional points:

I) The Dyno Run Versus the Road. When you put your car on a chassis dyno it is impossible to get the same level of air flow that the car will experience on the road. It would require a fan the size of a wind tunnel. As cars get smarter, accurate dynamometer testing gets harder. While we have the largest fan I have ever seen on a chassis dyno, it still will produce significantly less air flow than driving the car down the road. This will give you the triple whammy.
Both the intercooler and the radiator will be less efficient, and as a result the engine will detonate more. So when repeated runs are made, the engine goes into save-its- life mode, aggressively reducing power by retarding the ignition timing and richening the fuel mixture as well as possibly lowering the boost depending on how extreme the condition is.
If the piggy back boxes are not losing as much power as a stock or Dinan car on the dyno, you should be afraid because this means that your engine is in jeopardy as a result of these safety controls being compromised. Maybe not on purpose, but none the less compromised.
The same conditions are seldom seen on the road, so the correction while driving will not be as aggressive as you will see on the dyno. You can verify that this is true by the glowing reports of the cars performance on the road and the track:



II) Getting the Most Power. As you can tell, these corrections are a good thing. Having said that, more power can be safely achieved by correcting the conditions that the ECU is correcting for.
A better intercooler will reduce inlet temperature, advance the timing, and lean the mixture
A better oil cooler will reduce engine temperature, advance the timing, and lean the mixture
Higher octane fuel will reduce detonation, advance the timing, and lean the mixture.
This is why we require an intercooler and oil cooler for our Stage 3 software, to protect your investment and extract the most power. We also recommend using unleaded racing fuel whenever you do a track day.

I hope this helps you to understand what is going on inside the incredible engine control system that BMW has put on your engine.

Steve Dinan, Steve Breen



very interesting to say the least....

Interesting

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I have read this for a couple of days and am I the only one that is becoming disgusted with how low we are stooping as a community? This is a BMW community! Most of us are professionals if we are to afford this car. What is happening to our community as a whole? We are starting to act like children. 2 years ago we were so much more respectful to one another, now we have a 50 page bashfest with a few key contributors calling each other names over and over and over...

Honestly guys, this is rediculous. E90post has been one of the best communities I have ever been a part of. The wealth of information is incredible. Let's not ruin this place acting like a bunch of 12 year old kids.

oh come on former... we are isolating all the name calling to one amusing thread. I tried to go back and find the posts I liked, but I could not... too many pages. Can someone consolidate the humorous posts? All other threads will now be serious and informative on e90. Actually this was one of the most informative, but that was only about 2 pages worth.

I did read some comments on N54Tech about the childish thread and how E90 is worthless... I completely disagree and think this site is still providing great information. There are many contributors and the fact that they continue to contribute even when others have ridiculous questions or comments is great. A couple of members on here are not really learning from others, but doing the teaching, and have continued to comment in this long un-BMW-like thread. The discussion is open to everyone and some don't say anything useful... that's the nature of a popular forum with a very opinionated topic.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

oh come on former... we are isolating all the name calling to one amusing thread. I tried to go back and find the posts I liked, but I could not... too many pages. Can someone consolidate the humorous posts? All other threads will now be serious and informative on e90. Actually this was one of the most informative, but that was only about 2 pages worth.

I did read some comments on N54Tech about the childish thread and how E90 is worthless... I completely disagree and think this site is still providing great information. There are many contributors and the fact that they continue to contribute even when others have ridiculous questions or comments is great. A couple of members on here are not really learning from others, but doing the teaching, and have continued to comment in this long un-BMW-like thread. The discussion is open to everyone and some don't say anything useful... that's the nature of a popular forum with a very opinionated topic.

The problem here is that intelligent people feel they have the right to disrespect others, talk down to others, and down right act completely rude to others. I thought that type of behavior was not accepted here. We are all adults and need to start to act like it.

[joyride]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

The problem here is that intelligent people feel they have the right to disrespect others, talk down to others, and down right act completely rude to others. I thought that type of behavior was not accepted here. We are all adults and need to start to act like it.

This is what Clap completely lacks. To keep going on and on about a product that many venders sell here is disrespecting, it's ok to have an opinion, but this is a vengeance that shouldn't be tolerated. Telling people to kill themselves, etc. I've seen people get banned for less...

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by Rysandro

Interesting

Seriously interesting. But I like how everyone just skips over this stuff and continues to spread what they have learned from their history of tuning 87 corolla's.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by joyride

This is what Clap completely lacks. To keep going on and on about a product that many venders sell here is disrespecting, it's ok to have an opinion, but this is a vengeance that shouldn't be tolerated. Telling people to kill themselves, etc. I've seen people get banned for less...

Claps statements aren't opinion, they are fact. You just don't want to believe them to be fact.

[joyride]

Originally Posted by themyst

Claps statements aren't opinion, they are fact. You just don't want to believe them to be fact.

So, he really wants people to kill themselves? He has given opinions and facts, but the way he goes about giving them is the ISSUE. And honestly, it's been enough already. There are other ways to say what he wants to say, and at the end of the day, he doesn't car about YOUR motor.

[5soko]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

The problem here is that intelligent people feel they have the right to disrespect others, talk down to others, and down right act completely rude to others. I thought that type of behavior was not accepted here. We are all adults and need to start to act like it.

+1 I cant agree more with you on this..

This is my first post in this thread and i have been trying to keep up with some of the readings on here.
Not sure why some members havent been banned and this thread locked.
It seems to be going no where, and ,multiple members keep repeating themselves. Some have a good idea of what is going on with the engines, other think they do and are spreading misinformation...
This thread will just have to agree to disagree type end.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by joyride

So, he really wants people to kill themselves? He has given opinions and facts, but the way he goes about giving them is the ISSUE. And honestly, it's been enough already. There are other ways to say what he wants to say, and at the end of the day, he doesn't car about YOUR motor.

The way he goes about it and being an issue is your opinion.
Don't like it, dont post. Make your own thread. Life is pretty simple if you take a step back.

Making post like this doesnt contribute to the thread, nor does it steer it on topic.

Just replying to your post has now set us one more step back.

If people learned proper forum etiquette (maturity), it could have been a constructive thread. Although it still is constructive, but its hard to get through the brainwashing, the bandwagons, the brand loyalty, the tuner wars, and the grudges to see the simple facts posted that can actually help people understand what is going on.

The real problem is from the get-go it turned into a defensive battle from the JB crowd. Typical story here.

If they saw past the tune at hand, and looked at the data presented, it could have been a lot more constructive and easier to read.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by joyride

So, he really wants people to kill themselves? He has given opinions and facts, but the way he goes about giving them is the ISSUE. And honestly, it's been enough already. There are other ways to say what he wants to say, and at the end of the day, he doesn't car about YOUR motor.

No one here cares about my motor either, and his conversational tone aside, all the tuning information he posted is fact. Whether you want to heed his advice or not is your decision.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

The way he goes about it and being an issue is your opinion.
Don't like it, dont post. Make your own thread. Life is pretty simple if you take a step back.

Making post like this doesnt contribute to the thread, nor does it steer it on topic.

Just replying to your post has now set us one more step back.

If people learned proper forum etiquette (maturity), it could have been a constructive thread. Although it still is constructive, but its hard to get through the brainwashing, the bandwagons, the brand loyalty, the tuner wars, and the grudges to see the simple facts posted that can actually help people understand what is going on.

The real problem is from the get-go it turned into a defensive battle from the JB crowd. Typical story here.

If they saw past the tune at hand, and looked at the data presented, it could have been a lot more constructive and easier to read.

that'll be the day

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

Seriously interesting. But I like how everyone just skips over this stuff and continues to spread what they have learned from their history of tuning 87 corolla's.

I have been talking about ait and temp compensations even before this thread. temp compensations have been in place in ecus since the 80's. ait is a bit new but nothing special. People actually tuned 87 corollas ? WHY ?

Harry

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by ZTUNER

I have been talking about ait and temp compensations even before this thread. temp compensations have been in place in ecus since the 80's. ait is a bit new but nothing special. People actually tuned 87 corollas ? WHY ?

Harry

They are actually fun track cars, Light, great at handling, and RWD.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I have read this for a couple of days and am I the only one that is becoming disgusted with how low we are stooping as a community? This is a BMW community! Most of us are professionals if we are to afford this car. What is happening to our community as a whole? We are starting to act like children. 2 years ago we were so much more respectful to one another, now we have a 50 page bashfest with a few key contributors calling each other names over and over and over...

Honestly guys, this is rediculous. E90post has been one of the best communities I have ever been a part of. The wealth of information is incredible. Let's not ruin this place acting like a bunch of 12 year old kids.

I agree, but the whole singular purpose of this thread is to bash one individual. So if you want to lay blame, point your finger in the direction of the OP.

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by BeenieMan

why would you say this when its too easy to go back and see

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491005

at 160 IATs, his 4th gear timing dropped out.... knock? or dme seeing high IATs?

at 180, his 3rd gear timing dropped, and 4th gear timing was below 0..

is that cobb tuning it down? or letting the stock dme logic do it?

Keep in mind Cobb does not change the "LOGIC" only the values in the table, same with any other flash tune including Dinan. Cobb does exactly what BMW does with their higher boost versions like the IS.

More Fuel , less timing in the higher load sections of the map. If there is anything we can gather from all this, it is that we need to run slightly richer and lesser timing to not hit the knock thresholds. Remember when all the tuners said it was ok to run mid 12 a/f on a DI engine because it was ohh so super efficient ? Mike is now saying in one of the posts above that the JB "autotune" is richening the mixture to mid 11's. 2 months ago that was "WAY too rich".

If i had to guess eventually we will find that we need to run the same or only slightly better a/f and timing as we did on conventional engines all else being equal (like CR etc).

Can't wait for ATR

Harry