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      02-23-2011, 01:15 PM   #1013
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A few JB4 meth logs @ 18psi






Last edited by Mike@N54Tuning.com; 02-23-2011 at 01:22 PM..
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      02-23-2011, 01:20 PM   #1014
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With the little knowledge that I have looks ok!
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      02-23-2011, 01:29 PM   #1015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernflex View Post
With the little knowledge that I have looks ok!
of course it a meth log... which is off topic. i'll post some tuned logs on a stock car very soon in a new thread.
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      02-23-2011, 01:32 PM   #1016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernflex View Post
With the little knowledge that I have looks ok!
Here's a couple more 91 octane customer logs. In the first log there was a drop out in 3rd, the system detected it and ticked down aggression, and during the next run no such drop out was observed at one notch lower aggression. Autolearning FTW.

Mike
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      02-23-2011, 01:32 PM   #1017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZTUNER View Post
Keep in mind Cobb does not change the "LOGIC" only the values in the table, same with any other flash tune including Dinan. Cobb does exactly what BMW does with their higher boost versions like the IS.

More Fuel , less timing in the higher load sections of the map. If there is anything we can gather from all this, it is that we need to run slightly richer and lesser timing to not hit the knock thresholds. Remember when all the tuners said it was ok to run mid 12 a/f on a DI engine because it was ohh so super efficient ? Mike is now saying in one of the posts above that the JB "autotune" is richening the mixture to mid 11's. 2 months ago that was "WAY too rich".

If i had to guess eventually we will find that we need to run the same or only slightly better a/f and timing as we did on conventional engines all else being equal (like CR etc).

Can't wait for ATR

Harry
Ok, but running a little more conservative timing still won't prevent knock if people use crappy gas and/or in high temps. After the race gas log, the timing appeared to flatten out, but wouldn't it just adapt up after a few more runs until it needed to drop again, just like all the tunes do based on the dme?

I don't remember what they used to say along time ago, I've been researching tunes for about a year now, and I'm still completely stock. I knew this car ran hot stock before I bought it, watched the track comparison against the g37 when it went into limp mode. I've pushed this car until I got a half-engine light after 30mins of 100+ driving. I figured any type of tune would need better cooling and fuel, which is why I would get a bigger IC and meth when I do raise the boost. 1/4 mile runs are one thing, road courses and top speed runs are entirely different. Pulling timing or running better a/f can make running 17psi ok for 1 pull, but you are out of the turbos efficiency range, and sooner or later the temps will be so high it will knock.
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      02-23-2011, 01:35 PM   #1018
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Notice how much smoother the timing curve looks. Anyone starting to understand what I am saying yet?
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      02-23-2011, 01:50 PM   #1019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
I have read this for a couple of days and am I the only one that is becoming disgusted with how low we are stooping as a community? This is a BMW community! Most of us are professionals if we are to afford this car. What is happening to our community as a whole? We are starting to act like children. 2 years ago we were so much more respectful to one another, now we have a 50 page bashfest with a few key contributors calling each other names over and over and over...

Honestly guys, this is rediculous. E90post has been one of the best communities I have ever been a part of. The wealth of information is incredible. Let's not ruin this place acting like a bunch of 12 year old kids.
This.
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      02-23-2011, 02:14 PM   #1020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papiti View Post
Things I've learned from this thread:

1. That every engine has Knock

2. That Clap likes bashing JB3/4 because of Knock

3. That there is no way of telling what degree of damage a Knock can do from Claps Maps

4. That Clap proved there's knock in all engines with tunes.

5. That there is NO proof that he BLOWN engines were caused by a JB3/4 tune, or because of a Knock

6. That the only way that a Knock will not go under 10 degrees is using Race Gas Fuel.

7. That Clap gets overly exited and looses his calm when somebody doesn't agree with him.

8. That, even with autotunig or without it, THERE IS STILL KNOCK, LMFAO!!

SO WHATS THE POINT CLAP??!!??
No offense here....but....

If that is the only thing you got out of this thread, and pretty much every other thread on this subject on the forum, then either your reading and comprehension regarding FI tuning is poor, or you need some updating and reviewing on the subject.
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      02-23-2011, 02:22 PM   #1021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techlogik View Post
No offense here....but....

If that is the only thing you got out of this thread, and pretty much every other thread on this subject on the forum, then either your reading and comprehension regarding FI tuning is poor, or you need some updating and reviewing on the subject.
What's your take on this?
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      02-23-2011, 02:22 PM   #1022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techlogik View Post
No offense here....but....

If that is the only thing you got out of this thread, and pretty much every other thread on this subject on the forum, then either your reading and comprehension regarding FI tuning is poor, or you need some updating and reviewing on the subject.
99% of responses of this thread are negative because its CLAP that posted it.

IF it was a fresh user the subject would have probably gone a lot smoother.

My .02.
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      02-23-2011, 02:25 PM   #1023
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I love how this thread is mostly about my behavior towards the same two user who stalked me until proven wrong 100 times. If you got stalked asking the dumbest questions you would loose your cool as well. 1 I simple put on the ignore list and the other brainiac thinks me blowing off Boost is knock. Other that that this thread is one of biggest most informative one on this entire forum.
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      02-23-2011, 02:46 PM   #1024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
A few JB4 meth logs @ 18psi





Mike, you're knocking on meth at the onset of each pull. Perhaps the progressive meth transition input needs to be dialed up, or a delay needs to be incorporated (0.5 seconds) before the boost increases?
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      02-23-2011, 02:55 PM   #1025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
I love how this thread is mostly about my behavior towards the same two user who stalked me until proven wrong 100 times. If you got stalked asking the dumbest questions you would loose your cool as well. 1 I simple put on the ignore list and the other brainiac thinks me blowing off Boost is knock. Other that that this thread is one of biggest most informative one on this entire forum.
Yes I liked the Balloon and Bat comparisons! Very very informative.
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      02-23-2011, 03:02 PM   #1026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themyst View Post
Mike, you're knocking on meth at the onset of each pull. Perhaps the progressive meth transition input needs to be dialed up, or a delay needs to be incorporated (0.5 seconds) before the boost increases?
There is no knock on the onset of meth flow shown on these logs. You are misinterpreting load changes (pedal, throttle, target changes), which trigger timing DME changes as knock.

Mike
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      02-23-2011, 03:03 PM   #1027
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Is there any way that the knock sensors themselves, can be logged? It would be really nice to see some raw data from the sensors to overlay with the ignition cuts
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      02-23-2011, 03:09 PM   #1028
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Granted, this is a very popular thread...

but i would say that its an overstatement to say that its the best thread on the forum.

please forgive me for making a slightly constructive observation...

the title of this thread is misleading -- or at least in some ways a good way to refute someones motives and the technology that they are using -- basically what all car people know as "bait and switch" ..

the statement that BMW's Motronic unit has trouble sustaining a decent timing curve STOCK is tantamount to alluding that earth has a hard time staying in a constant rotation around the sun. there is more than meets the eye.

most of this forum is comprised of people of reasonable intellect and some are schooled in various areas of expertise, but without proper direction, valid points can be blown well out of proportion.

just as an example, i posted a link to a reference to knock sensor technology.. it was lenghtly, but it did explain that the harmonics of the engine while running well are different than when the engine is knocking.

knock can be detected on several levels -- just as earthquakes can be sensed by magnitude. using a set of "electronic ears" to detect knock is so 1980ish and sensors and technology have move far beyond that, to the extent of its ability to detect based on several variables (iat,cts,road speed, load,ambient temp,etc) not if, but when the engine could "see" a knock condition.

assuming the DME will pull timing when its see the knock isnt adaptive, but reactive. yes, there are timing drops -- when the DME sees conditions based on sensor input (not just knock) it will pull timing.

the main reason that these turbo engine stay together is knock is damaging, being conservative is THE only way to keep these motors together. now for any tune that disregards the intended operation of the DME to pull timimg not just based off of a KNOCK signal is going to have trouble...

if you had a car that was slightly overheating (maybe bumper to bumper traffic) and the car was traveling on the 6% incline, the outside temp is 98degress wouldnt you pull timing if your were the engine management system -- even before the car knocked ?? think about it.

not trying to post a put down, but without a full grasp of WHAT the whole car is doing -- making a solid point about one tune or the other isnt being fair -- sorta

i would say -- let time tell, and the performance of the product will speak for itself.

i know ill have to deal with the "prove it" situation now -- before any one asks -- get in touch with BMW and Siemens for details.
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      02-23-2011, 03:10 PM   #1029
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I learned alot to say the least, the was a little bashing here and there but ot happens we are men(some of us lol), so aggression should be tolerated. It also shows how much passion he has for the tuning world... Btw you should look at what I posted about dinan's view on this topic. Very informative to say the least....
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      02-23-2011, 03:13 PM   #1030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
There is no knock on the onset of meth flow shown on these logs. You are misinterpreting load changes (pedal, throttle, target changes), which trigger timing DME changes as knock.

Mike
There is no misinterpretation. Have you ever seen my timing logs at 18.5 psi? They don't look anything like that. What's happening here is the meth isn't entering combustion quick enough prior to the transition, causing the knock events before it transitions. I am not here to bash the jb4, I am trying to provide advice.

Either the user needs to increase the transition threshold for progressive meth, or bms needs to incorporate a small delay to prevent this. I alleviated this when I ran jb4 by taking the largest meth flow figure, and inputting that figure minus 1. Performance would take a small hit due to the increased delay, but it would be safer for sure, and preventing that knock event at the onset of WOT.

If you need me to post what my logs look like on meth, I'll be more than happy to.
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      02-23-2011, 03:17 PM   #1031
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Ah, screw it, here you go Mikey:

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      02-23-2011, 03:23 PM   #1032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chili36 View Post
What's your take on this?

My take?

JB is the only tuner that doesn't control timing directly when running higher boost levels on the N54/N55.

Cobb/GIAC, Procede, Dinan, ESS, AA etc...all have the ability and do control timing DIRECTLY. Not as a by-product like Terry. This of course is FI tuning 101 material.

JB solely relies on riding the knock sensor and the stock DME value/tables/logic that were written for the the stock setup to deal with and handle high boost levels requested to make big power. That = bad IMO.

Actually, I lied, Terry/JB do control timing. They do this by inducing knock under high boost levels, then rely on the DME to jump in, pull timing and save the day!!! Isn't that a great way to tune FI?!?!

Why Terry/Mike think this is an acceptable, reliable and healthly way to tune a FI engine when every other tuner of FI applications wants to control timing directly, and not as a by-product/reaction....is beyond me.

Yet, Terry does.....things that make you go hmmmmm.....



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      02-23-2011, 03:26 PM   #1033
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Originally Posted by Shellacked135i View Post
He's from Y O.

Enough said
Hey, I'm from YO.
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      02-23-2011, 03:27 PM   #1034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techlogik View Post
My take?

JB is the only tuner that doesn't control timing directly when running higher boost levels on the N54/N55.

Cobb/GIAC, Procede, Dinan, ESS, AA etc...all have the ability and do control timing DIRECTLY. Not as a by-product like Terry. This of course is FI tuning 101 material.

JB solely relies on riding the knock sensor and the stock DME value/tables/logic that were written for the the stock setup to deal with and handle high boost levels requested to make big power. That = bad IMO.

Actually, I lied, Terry/JB do control timing. They do this by inducing knock under high boost levels, then rely on the DME to jump in, pull timing and save the day!!! Isn't that a great way to tune FI?!?!

Why Terry/Mike think this is an acceptable, reliable and healthly way to tune a FI engine when every other tuner of FI applications wants to control timing directly, and not as a by-product/reaction....is beyond me.

Yet, Terry does.....things that make you go hmmmmm.....
Can you discuss the differences in Cobb and Procede's approaches to timing?

Neil
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