[meyergru]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Meyer, It is your destiny

I doubt that I will be first to try V31. The software will not be available until next week. So, I doubt that they even can tell if it fixes anything before monday. I'm away at work the whole next week and the next two weeks in Turkey for a sailing vacation. Thus, I could not even try before October...

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by meyergru

I doubt that I will be first to try V31. The software will not be available until next week. So, I doubt that they even can tell if it fixes anything before monday. I'm away at work the whole next week and the next two weeks in Turkey for a sailing vacation. Thus, I could not even try before October...

We demand you cancel either this work nonsense or this sailing to Turkey business and try V31 instead!

[mistermojorizin]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

We demand you cancel either this work nonsense or this sailing to Turkey business and try V31 instead!

i second these sentiments.

[mistermojorizin]

I just sent the following PM to e90post member
"BMW NA Customer Relations."

"I'd like to point your attention to the following 50 page thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147781

The executive summary is that we all test drove cars with the n54 engine and loved it and placed orders. Once the cars arrived they felt different than what we test drove due to the presence of turbo lag. It has been determined that the lag is caused by a change in the wastegate duty cycle brought on by progman 29.2 and later.

Those that got the cars prior to 29.2, have experienced the same lag once their cars were updated.

when going to our dealers, we get no help, they give us the party line "the car is within spec" or "wait till the next progman" but nothing changes.

we are in the process of contacting various publications, some of us will be getting rid of the cars and I know this is causing BMW sales because we are spreading the word about how BMW has introduced lag into the car after we ordered it.

We have gotten some attention so far: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/22/b...es-performance

Is BMW aware of this issue? What do they propose to do about it?

Thank you for your time."

[paltomare]

I thought the good folks here might be interested in what I am dealing with. Below is my initial email to my service advisor with their response further below. I spent 30 minutes on the phone with them, they had the impression the current software, now called 30.2.2, tightened the wastegates to reduce the flapping noise and actually increased performance. This was the first time they have heard of my (our) problem, but did aknowledge that new software was on the way mid Sept. I intend to continue the fight and will keep you updated. See below.....

<<Hi Daniel,

I have tried to contact Nathan, per your suggestion, several times to discuss the recent service to my car; Nathan has not returned my calls to him.

As I have mentioned to you previously I am very disappointed with the service provided on Aug. 25th.

To recap, I purchased my car on Jul. 31st and brought it back on Aug. 25th to have a backordered Sirius radio module installed. What should have been a routine 2 hour service turned into 1.5 days. When I returned to pick up my car I still had to wait over an hour, I was given the car back without it being washed, and without paperwork, which, I still have not received.

When I picked up my car, Mike in service told me he installed all new software, including engine management software and that “the car may shift funny until it learns my driving behavior”. I was never informed of, nor authorized additional work to be performed to my car.

I immediately noticed the car had increased turbo lag and a louder exhaust note. I continued to drive the car for a few days before contacting you with my concerns. I also did some research online and found many complaints of the exact same issue.

Obviously, I am not privy to the technical details of this change but from what I have read this is BMW’s attempt to address some hardware concerns by changing the wastegate duty cycles, and is certainly not related to Sirius radio. It is my understanding cars with a build date earlier than 03/08 (my car has a build date of 01/08) had previous software which performed as advertised.

This car no longer drives the same as when I purchased it, I therefore request to have the previous software reinstalled until a more appropriate solution is offered by BMW. With this recent software change I feel BMW is guilty of bait and switch tactics and of false advertising relative to their claims of “no turbo lag” and advertised torque claims at low RPM’s

I am not happy and intend to pursue this until it is resolved to my satisfaction.

I look forward to your reply.

Thank you,
Paul>>

<<Paul,

BMW’s programming software does not allow selective programming of specific modules. Whenever a module is retrofitted or replaced a complete vehicle programming update is automatically performed. This is done to insure software compatibility between the vehicles control modules and is a requirement when performing a retrofit.

As per our phone conversation, I am not aware of any power loss issues related to BMW’s latest DME software but I will look into this.

Thank you,
Nathan Hood>>

[mistermojorizin]

damn, he couldn't even read your letter correctly. "I am not aware of any power loss issues." you never mentioned any power losses.

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by paltomare

BMW’s programming software does not allow selective programming of specific modules. Whenever a module is retrofitted or replaced a complete vehicle programming update is automatically performed. This is done to insure software compatibility between the vehicles control modules and is a requirement when performing a retrofit.

That is plain wrong or at least a big over-simplification. Whenever a module is retrofitted or has to be updated because of known problems with its specific software revision (or technically: target data status), a measurement plan is calculated by the diagnostic unit (essentially, a PC with the Progman software).

The parameters are:

1. Progman version of the diagnostic unit. This contains an array of software revisions for all known programmable car units and a dependency tree for all versions.

2. Current software revisions of the units on your car.

3. Car unit in question, which HAS to be updated.

From that info, the measurement plan is being calculated. In the simplest case, only the unit at stake will be upgraded, if all dependencies are met. If you car's software is very old, it may be neccessary to update all units. Units that are better connected to other units are more likely to get updated, also there are some strong links between units that act closely together (such as the DME and the steptronic).

Normally, the dependency graph will require only a small number of units to be updated. This saves time, since a full update requires a double-digit number of hours and kept the diagnostic units busy for too long in the past.

During the process, a certain update order has to be kept, so that the units are always compatible. This is the main reason why a downgrade is so difficult. You'd have to keep a certain order for downgrade, too and the algorithms are not well-tested for this. I suspect that my USB audio interface was rendered useless this way during the downgrade process of my car.

[paltomare]

Yeah, I know. I'm not too optomistic about getting anywhere with these guys but I'm prepared to take it to BMW NA, car magazines, whomever.

I've mentioned this previously, but still wonder if we have grounds for a class action lawsuit.

I'm hopeful v31 solves the problem and we can all motor on down the road.

[paltomare]

Originally Posted by meyergru

That is plain wrong or at least a big over-simplification. Whenever a module is retrofitted or has to be updated because of known problems with its specific software revision (or technically: target data status), a measurement plan is calculated by the diagnostic unit (essentially, a PC with the Progman software).

The parameters are:

1. Progman version of the diagnostic unit. This contains an array of software revisions for all known programmable car units and a dependency tree for all versions.

2. Current software revisions of the units on your car.

3. Car unit in question, which HAS to be updated.

From that info, the measurement plan is being calculated. In the simplest case, only the unit at stake will be upgraded, if all dependencies are met. If you car's software is very old, it may be neccessary to update all units. Units that are better connected to other units are more likely to get updated, also there are some strong links between units that act closely together (such as the DME and the steptronic).

Normally, the dependency graph will require only a small number of units to be updated. This saves time, since a full update requires a double-digit number of hours and kept the diagnostic units busy for too long in the past.

During the process, a certain update order has to be kept, so that the units are always compatible. This is the main reason why a downgrade is so difficult. You'd have to keep a certain order for downgrade, too and the algorithms are not well-tested for this. I suspect that my USB audio interface was rendered useless this way during the downgrade process of my car.

Your statement above is inline with what other dealers have told me which was that the Sirius update should only take 2 hours. 1 hour for the module and 1 hour for the software. I smell BS.

They even asked me if I modded the car......I am pissed off.

[RBBMWE46M3]

Who is the mole...that is what we need to figure out now!!!!!

[Hit_Apex]

06/08 build. Lag is noticeable and unacceptable. I tell everyone who asks about the defect, probably 10 people a week. My experience has influenced several car buying decisions and for this I am disappointed. Please end the denial and address the issue.

[Quisp]

Clobu, that link to the apple class action is very interesting. It seems like they have a problem similar to ours.

alleges that AT&T's network is not strong enough to support the millions of iPhone 3G users, and therefore the handset is not performing as advertised, according to Michael Ian Rott, Gill's attorney.

"The bottom line is iPhone 3G users are not getting what has been represented to them," Rott said in a phone interview. "[The iPhone 3G] is kind of like a Dragster: A Dragster can go 500 miles an hour, but you only have a short amount of track space so you'll never reach that 500 miles per hour.... Similarly the 3G iPhone isn't working to the specifications Apple represented."



Thier network isnt strong enough to support their claims and isnt working as advertised or to the specs represented. Our engiines arent strong enough to support BMWs claims and arent working as advertised or to the specs either.

Maybe we need to contact their lawyer and see if he can help us.

[Cobu]

I wonder if anyone else has noticed that the turbo lag is more pronounced once the engine temperature has reached 210-220F (+). When the engine is cold the car performs almost same (if not the same) as it did it did before I got the s/w update !?
Ten minutes into driving, or whenever the 210+ F temp is reached Turbo LAG kicks in and stays on (the engine temp stays around 240-250F).

I know I saw one post that claimed the same.

I have made another appt. w/my dealer for next Monday but I really have no hopes that they will be able to do anything but piss me off even more. I truly hope that the V31.0 solves the problem.
As for BMW NA - sent them 2 e-mails already any have heard nothing back. If v31.0 doesn't address this issue and BMW NA continues to ignore our gripes there really isn't anything else left to do but a class action law suit.

[C.D.335xi]

Agreed that the Apple class action shows some interesting parallels. However, the Mazda RX-8 fiasco (which resulted in Mazda offering a buyback option due to false HP claims) is also pretty relevant in my opinion. That matter, like the turbo lag issue, relates to claims made by an auto manufacturer about a specific model's performance. Granted, one could claim that there differences because HP can be objectively measured as a number. However, I think that a claim to have "eliminated" turbo lag can also be objectively tested.

For more info on the RX-8 fiasco check out the following links:

Mazda Offers to Buy Back RX-8 (http://consumeraffairs.com/news03/mazda_buyback.html)

Mazda RX8 Horsepower Controversy (http://ezinearticles.com/?Mazda-RX8-...versy&id=47018)

Mazda Revises RX-8 Horsepower Number - RotaryNews.com (http://rotarynews.com/node/view/206)

Just my .02

Originally Posted by Quisp

Clobu, that link to the apple class action is very interesting. It seems like they have a problem similar to ours.

alleges that AT&T's network is not strong enough to support the millions of iPhone 3G users, and therefore the handset is not performing as advertised, according to Michael Ian Rott, Gill's attorney.

"The bottom line is iPhone 3G users are not getting what has been represented to them," Rott said in a phone interview. "[The iPhone 3G] is kind of like a Dragster: A Dragster can go 500 miles an hour, but you only have a short amount of track space so you'll never reach that 500 miles per hour.... Similarly the 3G iPhone isn't working to the specifications Apple represented."



Thier network isnt strong enough to support their claims and isnt working as advertised or to the specs represented. Our engiines arent strong enough to support BMWs claims and arent working as advertised or to the specs either.

Maybe we need to contact their lawyer and see if he can help us.

[Prof3ssor]

Originally Posted by Cobu

I wonder if anyone else has noticed that the turbo lag is more pronounced once the engine temperature has reached 210-220F (+). When the engine is cold the car performs almost same (if not the same) as it did it did before I got the s/w update !?
Ten minutes into driving, or whenever the 210+ F temp is reached Turbo LAG kicks in and stays on (the engine temp stays around 240-250F)

I experience the same thing every morning when I drive into work. For a short time I was thinking maybe the car adjusted itself to the new software and then the lag slaps me in the face after 10-15 minutes. The throttle reponse when I first start driving is more pronounced also. When the car warms up the throttle response decreases. I can not put my finger on this as it does not make sense. I still can not get over 20 mpg no matter how much I baby it. I keep filling up every 300-310 miles.

[Cobu]

I am not sure what the story is with the mpg - I personally never had mine go above 20 even w/the an old s/w.
As for the throttle response and the turbo lag with the warm engine - Last night and this morning again I enjoyed my ride like I used to for the first 10-15 min and I also kept my eye on the temperature gauge to see if I can pinpoint the right temp at which the throttle becomes "softer" and turbo lag kicks in. It always ends up being around 210-220F.

Anyone else noticed the same ?

[David 12]

This is similar to what Acura did to the CL Type S with automatic transmissions (and the TL-S.)

A lot of the transmissions were failing and the cure was a modification inside the transmission and a reprogram of the ECU. Basically, the shifts were very snappy before and slow as molasses after. I know a lot of people complained, but I believe Acura said same think BMW seems to be saying: Performance was not lessened and the changes were necessary to keep the tranny from failing. People talked about legal remedies, but I don't think anything ever moved forward.

I don't know if there are any former Acura owners that would like to chime in and voice their opinion, but the comparison does seem valid.

One last observation: Is it fair to say that 29.2 affects cars with the steptronic more than the manual? Is the workaround for the mt cars to just shift at higher rpm's?

Thanks and good luck with the new update!

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by David 12

One last observation: Is it fair to say that 29.2 affects cars with the steptronic more than the manual? Is the workaround for the mt cars to just shift at higher rpm's?

First question: No, if you read the thread, this is not so.

Second question: The workaround for any car is to shift at all. But that makes having a biturbo like the one in the 335i more or less useless. The power gains above the 328i are minimal (for a turbo car) at high RPM. We were in favor of the punch it had below 3000 RPM.

There is no problem accelerating for a stretch of, say, > 3 seconds. I even doubt that the 0-60 times are affected. But quickly stepping on it in city traffic to sneak into a gap on the other lane is virtually impossible with v29.2.

[David 12]

Gotcha - Thanks meyergru.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by Cobu

I wonder if anyone else has noticed that the turbo lag is more pronounced once the engine temperature has reached 210-220F (+). When the engine is cold the car performs almost same (if not the same) as it did it did before I got the s/w update !?
Ten minutes into driving, or whenever the 210+ F temp is reached Turbo LAG kicks in and stays on (the engine temp stays around 240-250F).

I know I saw one post that claimed the same.

I have made another appt. w/my dealer for next Monday but I really have no hopes that they will be able to do anything but piss me off even more. I truly hope that the V31.0 solves the problem.
As for BMW NA - sent them 2 e-mails already any have heard nothing back. If v31.0 doesn't address this issue and BMW NA continues to ignore our gripes there really isn't anything else left to do but a class action law suit.

Don't forget, your dealer can't actually do much right now. Just make sure they are aware of your dissatisfaction and are clear on the issue. At that point, you need to demand time with your Regional Tech (who is likely the same RT who had to see my car last week), which can be accomplished by discussing it with your Service Manager. If they won't set you up with the RT, call Dan at BMW NA and tell him about your problem, and tell him your dealer won't get your time with the RT. He will call your dealer and get it done.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by meyergru

First question: No, if you read the thread, this is not so.

Second question: The workaround for any car is to shift at all. But that makes having a biturbo like the one in the 335i more or less useless. The power gains above the 328i are minimal (for a turbo car) at high RPM. We were in favor of the punch it had below 3000 RPM.

There is no problem accelerating for a stretch of, say, > 3 seconds. I even doubt that the 0-60 times are affected. But quickly stepping on it in city traffic to sneak into a gap on the other lane is virtually impossible with v29.2.

Not like this is news, but, very well said all around.

I swear, I've almost gotten myself hit in traffic 3 times or so now because I didn't un-train myself not to shoot gaps. Can't be done anymore.

[RBBMWE46M3]

I want to say this...after yesterday it is very and I mean VERY IMPORTANT that everyone in here document the fact that BMW advertises "we have eliminated turbo lag altogether". If anyone goes for a ride with the BMW engineers and the customer relation people, don't try to give them the "I know over 50 people on a forum" or "Autoblog has an article" keep it as simple as showing them the lag and showing them the page of BMW's ad that says "we have eliminated lag altogether" and simply state FIX IT. After all the crap I tried to get through to them yesterday, they were VERY forceful with me trying to tell me that:

1. Q. What kind of gas do you use? A. I use nothing but Amoco Ultimate. R. Well we have lots of problems with people who use Amoco Ultimate, its bad gas...

2. Q. Did you test drive a step or man (my car is a 6spman) A. I test drove a step. R. Well a step is different than a man it is faster...(that is really what they said)

3. Q. Did you do anything to your car (tune, mod) A. Absolutely not.

"Do you know of anyone else with a turbo lag problem"
I swear to God I asked them this question as we were riding in my car and there response was "You are the first"
Another thing that floored me was they ripped this forum. They told me that they have "several" people on this forum who watch and read what we communicate with each other. "Its allot of FALLACY" was there response...


THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS WHOLE PAGE......................................


Ok, we were sitting in the car and after all the temper flaring and over talking (which the customer relation guy was a professional at) I got to the simple point which was..."I have turbo lag. BMW advertises that they have eliminated lag altogether" There response was, and for the love of God please read this carefully....

"WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT BMW HAS ELIMINATED TURBO LAG?" I tell them "I got it off of BMWNA website" They say "Really, we don't believe you" I say "lets go inside and log on and Ill show you" they say "ok" We get a sales associate and he gets us an empty booth and I log on and show them the page where it says "we have eliminated lag altogether"

They hung there heads in DEFEAT. After all the crap we went through, there attitudes changed after I pressed the magic button on that computer. "Mr. Hoosier, we are going to blah, blah, blah...Really take care of you..

That being said...If you go for a ride, keep it civil and simple to the fact that they advertise no lag and you have it. Go no farther. Tell them to "fix it" "I'm not happy"

PM me with any questions

I still don't have a feeling weather they will fix this or not. The engineer told me that he did not know of any new ecu upgrade in the future. Europe has much different programs than the USA cause the "emissions are different and other things"

"IN FACT WE HAVE ELIMINATED TURBO LAG ALTOGETHER" ------BULLSHIT!!!