[DWR]

Thanks Hooper. Looks like this was for a 4 speed with one-way clutches/sprags (not clutch to clutch)? Who's software is that?

[iaknown]

Just had an idea that may or may not be useful.....What if you were to compare maps from a stock 335i flash to the Alpina flash and see what is different? Eh? I realize the gas flash is different than ours but it may tell you where to start looking.

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by DWR

Thanks Hooper. Looks like this was for a 4 speed with one-way clutches/sprags (not clutch to clutch)? Who's software is that?

Yes its for a 4 speed, not sure what one way clutches to sprags means. The software is hp tuners, lots of gm support with some Ford and dodge support as well.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

Yes its for a 4 speed, not sure what one way clutches to sprags means. The software is hp tuners, lots of gm support with some Ford and dodge support as well.

Older automatics avoided 'flare' between gears by utilizing one way clutches. Part of the weight saving in our trans is the elimination of those kinds of mechanisms.

Last year, HP supposedly had the ability to tune the ZF6HP26 TCU/TCM in Australian Fords. Do you still have the software? Can you upgrade to the lastest version and check it out?

[Hoooper]

Which ford models?

[Hoooper]

So, the Ford BF comes with a ZF 6 speed and makes up to 405 HP/398 lb ft. Probably a 6hp26 behind that. HP tuners does have support for that model, and in addition I can confirm they have support for the ZF TCM in that model. I need to update my software, but I can take a look at those tunes and see what they have done. For V8s that started at 398 lb ft and have been modified we can probably learn a bit about the limits for the trans in terms of shift pressures, shift times, etc. Looks like there is a good bit of info on this thread (you may have to sign in) http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...-in-2-25-Beta/

[Hoooper]

So, the tuning of this trans looks a lot more involved than I have seen before. A LOT.

These 75 tables take the place of about 4 tables for 4l60e tuning. Granted this is for a 4wd vehicle so there are several additional tables above what we would have. AND the tables here, while they are for a ZF, are only for a 4 speed

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

So, the tuning of this trans looks a lot more involved than I have seen before. A LOT.

These 75 tables take the place of about 4 tables for 4l60e tuning. Granted this is for a 4wd vehicle so there are several additional tables above what we would have. AND the tables here, while they are for a ZF, are only for a 4 speed

Yep, we can expect it will be more complex for several reasons, the fact that the trans sends commands to the ECU, the shifts are adaptive, clutch to clutch handoff, several modes off shifting...

BTW, the ZF 4 and 5 speeds work very different than the 6 and 8 speeds. So, if you can get a peek at a 6 speed, that would really be helpful. Tables like you are showing can give us a lot of information about the maps we would be looking for.

Really appreciate your help. Thank you.

[Yozh]

Here is a stupid question. If Mik is successful in flashing various files to the TCU, why can't we flash an Alpina D3 transmission tune to ours. Sorry if this has already been discussed.

[Hoooper]

I'm trying to get access to the 6 speed compatible program. The 6 speed has only been added in a beta version so far, so I have to get them to get me the beta in order to open up some tunes for the 6 speed. I assume they will let me download it but I guess I won't know for sure until I am confirmed.

Fwiw I think the 4l60 tables are just simplified to be more user friendly. The trans has adaptation values, torque management, power/tow/econ, etc. but there really is no point to get into all of the different individual force motor, etc maps as a user of you don't want to. The zf 6 speed only has another I think 2 solenoids in the valve body so controlling it really shouldn't be that different

[Hoooper]

Yozh does the alpina d3 have a 6hp26/28? And do you have the file?

[stevers314]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

Yozh does the alpina d3 have a 6hp26/28? And do you have the file?

Old D3 had the 6HP19, new ones have the 8 speed.

[Yozh]

Originally Posted by stevers314

Old D3 had the 6HP19, new ones have the 8 speed.

I could see that it was a 6speed, but did not know which one. Guess based on N47 that figures.
335i guys have it so much easier with B3 flash.

We are hooped. Need to bribe someone at BMW....

[TDIwyse]

This probably won't help, but it's fascinating reading about the inner workings of the BMW Electronic Transmission Control and all the "stuff" involved in its workings.

http://www.e38.org/electran1.pdf

Edit... This appears to be less helpful and detailed than the pdf in the 1st post ... so never mind.

[TDIwyse]

From the pdf on page 28, which also shows a diagram of these two methods (I'd like the "Sport" mode to be more harsh and abrupt please :-) ):

There are two methods for controlling the torque converter clutch on BMW transmissions:
•
A4S310/270R, 4HP22/24 EH, A5S310Z
- These transmissions use an on/off
control method to lock and unlock the torque converter. The Torque Converter
Clutch is either completely engaged or disengaged. This method of engagement
provides an abrupt sensation when the TCC is locking and unlocking. This abrupt
sensation can be undesirable to some drivers.
•
A5S560Z, A5S440Z, A5S325Z, GA6HP26Z,A5S360/390R
-
These transmissions
use a gradual approach to TCC control. The TCC is gradually applied and released,
this method reduces the abrupt feel of the on/off type TCC. The TCC solenoid is
controlled by pulse width modulation. This allows fluid to be gradually introduced
and released to the TCC.
The TCC is spring loaded to the engaged position. Pressurized fluid releases the TCC,
when the pressurized fluid is released, the TCC is engaged. Depending on transmission
application, the TCC can be engaged in 3rd, 4th or 5th gear. The TCC must be disengaged
at low speeds to prevent stalling.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

Fwiw I think the 4l60 tables are just simplified to be more user friendly. The trans has adaptation values, torque management, power/tow/econ, etc. but there really is no point to get into all of the different individual force motor, etc maps as a user of you don't want to. The zf 6 speed only has another I think 2 solenoids in the valve body so controlling it really shouldn't be that different

I'll try to explain the difference between how the 4L60 shifts gears versus a 6HP28. The 4L60 shifts gears by changing one solenoid state per gear change. The 6HP28 shifts gears by changing two solenoid states per gear change. The 4L60 plays catch, the 6HP28 juggles. So, the adaption I was referring to was the adaption of sychronization of the solenoids - something the 4L60 doesn't do because it doesn't need to. That's why there are shift kits for 4L60s and not 6HP28s. The 6HP28 TCU just adapts around the modifications.

But you are right, if we had tuning software, the user interface would be simplified. It would be unlikely the output from such software would be a complete calibration. I suspect something more abbreviated is produced that only specifies limited changes in the full calibration. Still, I'll take whatever I can get.

well...this all looks just too complicated....just bribe some friend working at BMW to somehow get it for you. transmission is not cheap thing to play with and there is a reason, there are hours of testing put in place by either zf and bmw, but still, there is no interest from bmw even keep it going for long, as they don't even recommend the oil change...they are at the end evil thinking
i have changed oil by dripping method unaware that it should be flushed with machine, and on top, there is a function in DISv57 called OIL CHANGE, which I am trying to figure what for and thinking it might be there for changing gears during oil change or maybe relearning the oil viscosity after the actual change? another function there is reset adaptations......
saying this, I think anyone wishing smoothing up and upgrade their tranny should start there....and then you can upgrade the software.....but first, change the oil and reset adaptations, me thinking.....
last thing: my transmission got damaged by actual oil change, not using the zf oil, not using flush machine, and not resetting up adaptations and using the oil change function in DIS....
good luck

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

From the pdf on page 28, which also shows a diagram of these two methods...

DWR, from your graphs on post #87 (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=87) ... could those be PWM values for the TCC solenoid? Kinda looks similar to the PWM diagram on page 28.

[Hoooper]

So I got the BETA and...it didnt get any better. On the plus side, each of the available maps has a TCM location number shown in the window. If we are lucky, they are the same for our TCM. I posted some of those locations below to check on and a couple can also be seen in the screen shots at the bottom left corner.

Map------------------------Location
Shift Pattern 0 --------------- 41600
Shift Pattern 1 --------------- 41602
Shift Pattern 51 -------------- 41702
Second Ramp Shift Time 1->2 - 20508
Maximum Shift Time 1->2 ----- 41830
Nominal Slip Time 1->2 -------- 41566
Line Pressure Gear 1 -> ------- 41812









This last one is my favorite. It shows what I had suspected for a long time but never really knew for sure if it was the case. The transmission can limit torque in every gear, and undoubtedly does so in the first 2 or 3 in stock form.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

...
This last one is my favorite. It shows what I had suspected for a long time but never really knew for sure if it was the case. The transmission can limit torque in every gear, and undoubtedly does so in the first 2 or 3 in stock form...

Hooper, are you seeing things in there about limiting torque due to the trans fluid temp? I've been wondering about that and the practice of doing the 2nd gear brake boosted launches at the strip. I haven't measured the temp impact due to this, but I'm guessing it's pretty extreme, and I've recently been reading about other TCM's that de-fuel above certain threshold temps.

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Hooper, are you seeing things in there about limiting torque due to the trans fluid temp? I've been wondering about that and the practice of doing the 2nd gear brake boosted launches at the strip. I haven't measured the temp impact due to this, but I'm guessing it's pretty extreme, and I've recently been reading about other TCM's that de-fuel above certain threshold temps.

I am not seeing that in these maps, but these are probably not ALL of the modifiers in the TCM. Since this is a BETA program its likely they do not have it all figured out yet, there are still some maps that are not quite right.

That said, I think it would be worth logging. In my experience transmission fluid does not heat up very quickly when being pushed for a short term since there is such a large volume of fluid and fairly low flow rate. I think you would be surprised how low the fluid flow rate is through a transmission. Some specs I have seen call for 1L per 30 seconds at idle for a hose run from the cooler to a container. While idle obviously is not the max flow or pressure, it seems unlikely the flow is much more than 4x that, which would mean over a 1/4 mile pass you wouldnt even run the entire volume of fluid through once. With that WAG out of the way, it seems like it would be valuable to log that at some point. The hottest I have ever seen a transmission is when the TCC wasnt locking up at 75 in cruise control on the freeway, driving like an idiot for short term has given trans temps up to about 200, freeway cruise with TCC not working got to 230 after a couple minutes.

[TDIwyse]

I was wondering since it's in fluid coupling mode in 2nd. So there's some large power losses/heat generation due to churning and pressure while in that gear. I probably need to figure out how to log that...

From here (http://www.europeantransmissions.com.../6hp_trans.pdf) it appears there's two temp sensors: Trans Fluid Temp (TFT) and Substrate Temp Sensor (basically the temp of the TCM itself). There appears to be multiple changes to shift strategies and protection based on these two sensors.