[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Actually that's getting dangerously close to "limp mode" territory. When coolant temp reaches 242º F it'll go into the first stage of limp by cutting power to the engine. By 248º F it'll go into FULL limp mode and the warning lights will come on.

Yes, I made this statement quite a while ago, based on Mr.5's datalogging on his manual at the track. I have long since realized my error. I currently believe what you have been stating all along about water temps. It probably acounts for 1/2 of limp mode codes thrown at the track, especially in the automatic. I have an auto, and my first track event will be on the 22nd of may. I have now retrofitted an ar design oil cooler, and will also flush out my radiator with prestone radiator flush. I will be running a coolant additive + 30% coolant/70% water, in the hopes of lower water temps. Finally, I will be running with the car's heater on. Hopefully, I can get 3-5 laps per session out of her.

[zsapphire7]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Actually that's getting dangerously close to "limp mode" territory. When coolant temp reaches 242º F it'll go into the first stage of limp by cutting power to the engine. By 248º F it'll go into FULL limp mode and the warning lights will come on.

I think on the street tho, our cars normally run at 212F coolant temps. So 220F or +8F is fine as long as it holds there right?

[mid-corner fun]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

Yes, I made this statement quite a while ago, based on Mr.5's datalogging on his manual at the track. I have long since realized my error. I currently believe what you have been stating all along about water temps. It probably acounts for 1/2 of limp mode codes thrown at the track, especially in the automatic. I have an auto, and my first track event will be on the 22nd of may. I have now retrofitted an ar design oil cooler, and will also flush out my radiator with prestone radiator flush. I will be running a coolant additive + 30% coolant/70% water, in the hopes of lower water temps. Finally, I will be running with the car's heater on. Hopefully, I can get 3-5 laps per session out of her.

These limp modes are easy to detect, as thehack said you lose power before the dash lits up like a christmas tree. I've had many of these last year but sadly I was not keeping track of details then, I now have a detailed log per session and per limp mode.

Here's what I've seen so far:

-coolant-based limp mode: loss of power, followed by half-engine light/engine malfunction warning several seconds later. No error codes other than 3100 (limp)

- oil-based limp mode: loss of power and simultaneous half-engine light/engine malfunction warning. Again it could be my imagination but once you hit 285F, the jump to 300F occurs very fast. No error codes other than 3100 (limp)

- VANOS. simultaneous loss of power and warning lights. 2a87 (exhaust solenoid) and 3100 codes.

I'm also hoping that the STETT oil cooler and a coolant additive will help the overall system survive a track session, we'll see how it goes.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by PeterM1

These limp modes are easy to detect, as thehack said you lose power before the dash lits up like a christmas tree. I've had many of these last year but sadly I was not keeping track of details then, I now have a detailed log per session and per limp mode.

Here's what I've seen so far:

-coolant-based limp mode: loss of power, followed by half-engine light/engine malfunction warning several seconds later. No error codes other than 3100 (limp)

- oil-based limp mode: loss of power and simultaneous half-engine light/engine malfunction warning. Again it could be my imagination but once you hit 285F, the jump to 300F occurs very fast. No error codes other than 3100 (limp)

- VANOS. simultaneous loss of power and warning lights. 2a87 (exhaust solenoid) and 3100 codes.

I'm also hoping that the STETT oil cooler and a coolant additive will help the overall system survive a track session, we'll see how it goes.

Again, run with the heater on (windows down of course), and that should also help, Significantly.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

Yes, I made this statement quite a while ago, based on Mr.5's datalogging on his manual at the track.

Didn't realize that the statement was made late last year, just saw the thread bumped back up again...Didn't mean to single that statement out.

[UltraRacer13]

I had the stett stg 2 OC installed a few weeks ago. The difference in oil temps is dramatic. I will be testing it at the track at the end of april. I will also follow the suggestions regarding the radiator/heater.

[mid-corner fun]

Originally Posted by TXSailor

I had the stett stg 2 OC installed a few weeks ago. The difference in oil temps is dramatic. I will be testing it at the track at the end of april. I will also follow the suggestions regarding the radiator/heater.

good stuff, let us know how it goes and I'm glad you posted this, helps me stop procrastinating :-)

I scheduled the oil cooler installation for the 16th, going to LRP on the 18th. Tischer hasn't shipped the solenoids yet but I should have them way before then. I'll dilute with Mocool this weekend. Also moving from Hawk to PFC01s this year too, hoping for a smooth transition.

Will let you know how it goes.

[orionredwing]

Just a lil more feedback. I tested the AR Design Oil Cooler at Laguna a few weeks back, and they did not hold oil temps down. While there was some improvement, meaning it took a bit longer to heat up, I was still hitting 280F+ easy in 70F ambient.

So I got a few extra hot laps, but still had to back off. On paper, working in conjunction w/ the factory oil cooler sounds attractive for a better bang-for-buck deal, but I would not recommend AR's Oil Cooler for track use.

Will post a full review after my 4/19 Laguna track day. This was because my last track day was a BMWCCA event, so I was taking advantage of the instruction and working on my technique. I was probably driving the car at 90% (pace was ~2-3 sec slower per lap than my norm).

I'm looking forward to seeing how zsapphire7's Evolution Racewerk's Competition coolers do. Otherwise, Stett Stg 2 sounds like a good alternative. Ouch at my expensive mod mistake.

[jbass524]

Originally Posted by orionredwing

Just a lil more feedback. I tested the AR Design Oil Cooler at Laguna a few weeks back, and they did not hold oil temps down. While there was some improvement, meaning it took a bit longer to heat up, I was still hitting 280F+ easy in 70F ambient.

Do you have an MT or AT? I forget.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by jbass524

Do you have an MT or AT? I forget.

He's an auto.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by orionredwing

Just a lil more feedback. I tested the AR Design Oil Cooler at Laguna a few weeks back, and they did not hold oil temps down. While there was some improvement, meaning it took a bit longer to heat up, I was still hitting 280F+ easy in 70F ambient.

I'm looking forward to seeing how zsapphire7's Evolution Racewerk's Competition coolers do. Otherwise, Stett Stg 2 sounds like a good alternative. Ouch at my expensive mod mistake.

I don't doubt your story, but you do have PROceed, and it looks like with the OEM oil cooler, you weren't over heating when you ran stock boost. However, you were overheating when you ran with more boost. Adding the AR oil cooler, IMHO, won't help you keep down the oil temps, if your cranking up the boost. You can try stett, or evolution racewerks, but I doubt they'd do a dam thing, if you turn up the boost in an auto. just my opinion.

[mid-corner fun]

Went through the track vids from last year to look for patterns, I think you're right, coolant seems to hit the threshold first usually (before oil).

Notice in the 2nd limp mode in this video how the engine light did not come on until about 27 secs after I lost power...

And my personal best (worst?) this year, limp mode within 4 laps/46F Ambient!
Sorry, no in-car video, forgot to press record in that session.

Going back next week with a STETT oil cooler and Mocool in the radiator. Will run 2 sessions with heat on and 2 with heat off and record differences. Ambient in the high-50s.

[zsapphire7]

car looks so sad comming off on lap 4

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by PeterM1

Going back next week with a STETT oil cooler and Mocool in the radiator. Will run 2 sessions with heat on and 2 with heat off and record differences. Ambient in the high-50s.

Don't just drain and fill with Mocool. Do an entire System flush, with a radiator Fush/cleaner (Prestone, or Peak) first (eliminates all the build up, and subsequent hot spots). Here's what I did to my cooling system on saturday. I'll be at the track in a few weeks as well:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=514018

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by PeterM1

Went through the track vids from last year to look for patterns, I think you're right, coolant seems to hit the threshold first usually (before oil). Going back next week with a STETT oil cooler and Mocool in the radiator. Will run 2 sessions with heat on and 2 with heat off and record differences. Ambient in the high-50s.

Wow, Peter, didn't realize that you have an auto! Oh jeez. YES, you need that heater on from the beginning of the race! Also, have you changed your transmission fluid per chance? Notice how once you start changing gears during the race, the area below the shifter gets real HOT! you can't even rest your leg there. Well, because your an auto, your coolant has to cool your trans fluid! yes, definitely run MoCool, but its best run on less than a 50:50 water:coolant mix, otherwise its useless. Your coolant on say 30:70 will be way cooler without MoCool, than a 50:50 with MoCool.

[jbass524]

Where are the big aluminum radiators for us AT guys? Actually, you MT guys would benefit too.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by jbass524

Where are the big aluminum radiators for us AT guys? Actually, you MT guys would benefit too.

err.. I see HPautowerks makes the bigger radiator for the MT. He posted on this thread. I'd e-mail him to see if they've made one for us AT guys. But besides that, if you really want to see cooler water temps, then just run with two bottles of coolant additive (water wetter, mocool, etc), and 100% distilled water. That should have an ever greater cooling effect than their I extra liter capacity radiator, with 50/50 water/coolant mix, IMHO.

[Turkeybaster115]

For those of us with automatics, It seems that the heat exchanger, which is connected to the radiator, is the only means of controling transmission temps.



During race conditions, the heat from the transmission fluid mirrors water temps, and is a burden on the system. I was wondering if it was possible to remove the heat exchanger, and instead, install an automatic transmission oil cooler. This would be a far more effective way of lowering ATF temps, and would also free the radiator from the added heat load. Oddly enough the DCT in the 335is, also has a heat exchanger. This is why they gave that car an extra 0.5L radiator capacity. Still in both cases both transmissions would see increased an increased life span with a seperate oil cooler.
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E46-M3-...05/PriceAlert/

[r3v0]

Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115

For those of us with automatics, It seems that the heat exchanger, which is connected to the radiator, is the only means of controling transmission temps.



During race conditions, the heat from the transmission fluid mirrors water temps, and is a burden on the system. I was wondering if it was possible to remove the heat exchanger, and instead, install an automatic transmission oil cooler. This would be a far more effective way of lowering ATF temps, and would also free the radiator from the added heat load. Oddly enough the DCT in the 335is, also has a heat exchanger. This is why they gave that car an extra 0.5L radiator capacity. Still in both cases both transmissions would see increased an increased life span with a seperate oil cooler.
http://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E46-M3-...05/PriceAlert/

Can you tell me where exactly the heat exchanger is mounted on too? cause mines it dangling and not bolted onto anything.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by r3v0

Can you tell me where exactly the heat exchanger is mounted on too? cause mines it dangling and not bolted onto anything.

Check out post #7

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=358194

[Turkeybaster115]

Guys, I've done some more research, and it seems like the E46 3 series guys who have ZF 5 speed autos (ZF5hp19), and are supercharged, have similar problems with the heat like us 6AT (ZF6hp19) guys. From looking at their posts, they installed a temp monitor, and found that our heat exchanger is useless unless the trans temps go over 235F, which is the cooling system normal operating temp. At 242F, the cooling system starts limp mode preparations. In normal street driving the trans temps were hovering around 203-212F (Way too Hot Obviously), so the heat exchanger isn't doing anything. On the track, after a few laps the temp monitor for the trans showed temps hovering around 266F! The cooling system is at the mercy of this influx, of heat, and at 266F trans oil temp, the supercharged 3 series guys would start to go into a trans limp mode, where the car won't allow high rpm upshifts. They all installed trans coolers in their cars, instead of going the larger radiator route. Some links:

Trans Temp data post #4:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...mission+cooler

Trans cooler install with pics on supercharged car:
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...mission+cooler

Trans cooler Temp data on supercharged car
http://www.vsetrack.com/secondary_trans_cooler.htm

[jbass524]

Turkeybaster115, Great information. Now to source a tranny cooler.