[TDIwyse]

Was playing around on the drive home from work. Got a couple higher rpm data points to register for a full fueling 4th gear pull.

The BMWhat log of the "low pressure" turbo set point is the one for the big turbo that starts coming online at ~2800 rpm. It's interesting to see it coming online as the rpm's rise. Above ~3000 rpm the analog gauge agrees extremely well with the values BMWhat is giving for the low pressure boost setpoint (when you subtract the ~14.7 psi for normal atmospheric pressure... which is what "gauge psi" represents, and is what the 2nd plot is showing along with EGT's).

With the EWG the peak boost on the analog gauge is clipped at ~32-33 psi at the ~2800 rpm point where the big turbo is coming online, but it maintained ~31-32 psi through the pull. This agrees very closely with the BMWhat setpoint boost for the low pressure turbo.

Interestingly, the drive pressure to boost pressure at those upper rpm's is also looking extremely good... much better than I feared. Think I'll pull back the EWG a little to allow more boost...

[Mik325tds]

Researching UDS (ISO14229) vs. EDIABAS protocol yesterday, I came across this very nice thread describing the different interfaces and what you need to get Ediabas up and running:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=564570

Basically, EDIABAS is BMWs own propriatary protocol which provides a number of jobs that are described in so-called ECU files or .prg. You need the correct .prg file (D62M57xx.PRG) in order for EDIABAS to provide these jobs.

INPA is BMWs developer tool to visualize data from all available ECUs in the car, but doesn't provide logging services.
But there's this awesome Finish guy who programmed the freeware Test-o:
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ime-graph-view
This program utilizes the EDIABAS jobs and visualizes the data with options to log it.
Haven't played around with it a lot yet, but makes a real good impression.

It seems like some of the links in the E39 forums went dead, but you should be able to find the EDIABAS 7.3 redistributable using Google and search in some forums.

[iaknown]

Started a new thread on the INPA/logging....

[DWR]

Attachment 1144667

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Interestingly, the drive pressure to boost pressure at those upper rpm's is also looking extremely good... much better than I feared. Think I'll pull back the EWG a little to allow more boost...

TDI, it looks like the boost in the lower rpm range has "softened", compared to a stock curve. Looking at some old log files of mine, for an unmodified car.
The maximum at the lower end is higher than yours and the upper end is, of course, lower. I am thinking the EGW parameters needed to control the flow of the LP turbine are going to be different than the HP turbine.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by DWR

Attachment 1144667

TDI, it looks like the boost in the lower rpm range has "softened", compared to a stock curve. Looking at some old log files of mine, for an unmodified car.
The maximum at the lower end is higher than yours and the upper end is, of course, lower. I am thinking the EGW parameters needed to control the flow of the LP turbine are going to be different than the HP turbine.

Hmmm, there might be some misunderstanding of the various plots then.

If you look back on page 3 post 53 you'll see I was able to adjust the boost controller such that the low rpm boost was not "softened" and it also kept the upper rpm boost, where the big turbo is coming online, in check. So it is working across the whole rpm band and with both turbo's and it's also verified with the analog gauge behavior.

If you're referring to the latest plot above with the BMWhat logged "low pressure turbo" setpoint. This is the big turbo and shows what the DDE would be trying to target for setpoint from that stage. That turbo doesn't start coming online until the mid/upper rpm range... I was showing that data and comparing it to what the analog gauge was showing and noted they were in very close agreement in the upper rpm range where the little turbo is being bypassed. So the logged data and the analog gauge were in excellent agreement and showing the EWG was keeping overboost in check. As well as helping keep the drive pressure to boost pressure ratio in a safe region.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

If you're referring to the latest plot above with the BMWhat logged "low pressure turbo" setpoint. This is the big turbo and shows what the DDE would be trying to target for setpoint from that stage.

If I am reading that graph correctly, the DDE target setpoint at 3500rpm is above 30psi gauge. Maybe I just learned something. That would seem high for a stock DDE. Do you think that target is a result of the remap in your DDE?

An example of an ECU map for wastegate actuation and the pressure ratio for the LP turbo is attached below. They are based on commanded torque and rpm (no surprise). I believe the link to this info was given before. http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles..._sweetland.pdf It is convenient to call out "stages", as is done in the BMW literature, but the maps really show wide transition ranges. Even the HP compressor bypass, which is essentially an on/off switch, varies by commanded torque and rpm. BTW, the HP compressor bypass and the LP wastegate maps are incredibly similar. The HP turbo isn't out of the picture until LP starts getting throttled back. When you have the skinny pedal to the floor I guess that does take out one of the variables.

Been following this thread, trying to understand what you wanted to see for boost at low, mid and high rpms, at high load. Clearly, there has been a concern about overdriving the turbo(s). I could have done a better job explaining my point. Your boost curve is "softer" in the lower rpms, in shape not absolute numbers. Sorry for being so thick about this, but what target boost curve are you trying to achieve ? and are you seeing it (either on the analog gauge or by converting logged data)?

I admit I am having difficulty doing the conversion between the various sources of logs, text relating the analog gauge to the logs, etc. Not your fault, we can't seem to get the data we want and sampling rate, so I understand.

Keep the food for thought coming. My brain is hungry and I enjoy the soup that comes out of the TDIwyse kitchen.

[TDIwyse]

Did another pull this afternoon and video'd the analog boost gauge behavior. Also attaching the Torque log for this run. I'm noticing the Torque app is again under reporting the peak boost numbers by ~4 psi, but it is capturing the "shape" correctly. It appears relying on Torque's MAF based calculated boost to correctly gauge peak boost numbers would not be optimum.

4th gear pull from ~1800 rpm to ~4200 rpm and 41F temps. Had the passenger side window open to help capture more noise when the EWG dumps. But it's still hard to hear due to the wind noise. The 1 inch pipe and routing through the EGR port seems to be enough to keep exhaust noise to less than obnoxious levels (well, I'm sure some would find the open exhaust obnoxious ...). I'm finding it difficult to "hear" the EWG dump based on my observations.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by DWR

If I am reading that graph correctly, the DDE target setpoint at 3500rpm is above 30psi gauge. Maybe I just learned something. That would seem high for a stock DDE. Do you think that target is a result of the remap in your DDE?

An example of an ECU map for wastegate actuation and the pressure ratio for the LP turbo is attached below. They are based on commanded torque and rpm (no surprise). I believe the link to this info was given before. http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles..._sweetland.pdf It is convenient to call out "stages", as is done in the BMW literature, but the maps really show wide transition ranges. Even the HP compressor bypass, which is essentially an on/off switch, varies by commanded torque and rpm. BTW, the HP compressor bypass and the LP wastegate maps are incredibly similar. The HP turbo isn't out of the picture until LP starts getting throttled back. When you have the skinny pedal to the floor I guess that does take out one of the variables.

Been following this thread, trying to understand what you wanted to see for boost at low, mid and high rpms, at high load. Clearly, there has been a concern about overdriving the turbo(s). I could have done a better job explaining my point. Your boost curve is "softer" in the lower rpms, in shape not absolute numbers. Sorry for being so thick about this, but what target boost curve are you trying to achieve ? and are you seeing it (either on the analog gauge or by converting logged data)?

I admit I am having difficulty doing the conversion between the various sources of logs, text relating the analog gauge to the logs, etc. Not your fault, we can't seem to get the data we want and sampling rate, so I understand.

Keep the food for thought coming. My brain is hungry and I enjoy the soup that comes out of the TDIwyse kitchen.

Thanks for those maps. Very interesting.

Yes, the remapped DDE is raising the peak boost setpoint. Stock I was seeing ~25-26 across most of the rpm range. The Evolve tune raised that to ~30psi. The Ecotune raised it again to ~31psi (these are gauge psi numbers and was based on Bav Tech logged data, which I thought was actual boost ... but wasn't. Although it did agree with the BMWhat "set point" logged data for the Ecotune remap, so I still believe that data to be accurate for where the DDE was trying to set the boost).

However, the analog gauge was showing boost #'s well above the "set point" when moving to the open exhaust. iaknown was also having this issue and I believe he was triggering limp mode due to the excess boost. So what I was trying to do with the EWG was help "limit" the peak numbers from exceeding the "setpoint", as the analog gauge was showing peak boost numbers outside the K26 compressor map I had linked in the SCR Mod thread (re-attached here).

At this point it appears like things are in much safer regions due to analog gauge behavior and the BMWhat "drive pressure" measured data and EGT data.

http://www.3k-warner.de/files/pdf/K26.pdf

[DWR]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

So what I was trying to do with the EWG was help "limit" the peak numbers from exceeding the "setpoint", as the analog gauge was showing peak boost numbers outside the K26 compressor map I had linked in the SCR Mod thread (re-attached here).

Agree the pressure ratio is the first order of business, for each individual turbo. The higher horsepower guys (obviously you) have another problem and that is the x-axis.

Let's do a simple calculation with some conservative asumptions. Do you know the AFR at these full load rpm points? Smoke limit on the best of injection systems seems to be 16:1. I would use 18:1 to maximize the conversion of fuel to power. Let's take a middle 17:1. To get a targeted 350hp we'll need fuel to the tune of 0.38 lb/HP-hr. So, 350 X 0.38/60 X 17 = 38 lbs/min. Hmm, outside of the map ... this is why every tuner's torque curve drops off at higher rpms. For what it is worth, Meth/H2O injection will allow you to cheat this whole thing, by suppressing smoke and EGT. EGT is easy to understand. Lowering total AFR with Meth/H20 is more complicated.

Do have a KP39 compressor map? That little bugger has a max speed line @ 200K, but a lower max pressure ratio. This image combined with the previous should help. To get the system pressure ratio at any point just multiple the two together. Looks like a pressure ratio of 3.2 is very safe at 2,500rpm, as long as you are using the 2 turbos to do it.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by DWR

Agree the pressure ratio is the first order of business, for each individual turbo. The higher horsepower guys (obviously you) have another problem and that is the x-axis.

Let's do a simple calculation with some conservative asumptions. Do you know the AFR at these full load rpm points? Smoke limit on the best of injection systems seems to be 16:1. I would use 18:1 to maximize the conversion of fuel to power. Let's take a middle 17:1. To get a targeted 350hp we'll need fuel to the tune of 0.38 lb/HP-hr. So, 350 X 0.38/60 X 17 = 38 lbs/min. Hmm, outside of the map ... this is why every tuner's torque curve drops off at higher rpms. For what it is worth, Meth/H2O injection will allow you to cheat this whole thing, by suppressing smoke and EGT. EGT is easy to understand. Lowering total AFR with Meth/H20 is much more complicated.

Do have a KP39 compressor map? That little bugger has a max speed line @ 200K, but a lower max pressure ratio. This image combined with the previous should help. To get the system pressure ratio at any point just multiple the two together. Looks like a pressure ratio of 3.2 is very safe at 2,500rpm, as long as you are using the 2 turbos to do it.

Yes, I have AFR and I'm adding large amounts of H2O/methanol + extra fuel in a progressive fashion after a specific rpm. The base map seems to target ~16:1. Stoichiometry of methanol is significantly lower than diesel. My AFR's get lower than 16:1 in the upper rpm range with ~800 ml/min of 50/50 mix. The H2O portion helps balance the EGT's at these high hp levels.

I haven't seen the KP39 copressor map, but I'm at lower boost psi at the rpm's where it's being primarily used. Hardly above stock levels... It was the big turbo I was mostly concerned with.

In the SCR mod thread I linked some calculators for calculating air flow amounts. The only point I think I may be just off the K26 map based on the analog gauge is at ~3900 rpm. But it's not substantially off the map... But this is also not accounting for the psi drop in the intercooler ... but the measurement is also after the H2O/methanol injectors which are adding dramatic levels of cooling and extra pressure from the extra injected mass...

I should really be measuring the boost directly after the turbo compressor, but didn't think it was worth the extra fussing around to find a good way to tap into that area.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Yes, the remapped DDE is raising the peak boost setpoint. Stock I was seeing ~25-26 across most of the rpm range. The Evolve tune raised that to ~30psi. The Ecotune raised it again to ~31psi

In part I agree, the fact that you aren't get any overboost error does indicate that increased boost limits are part of your remaps. I'm guessing the BMWhat parameter is misnamed and it really is just boost pressure. Having a deja vu moment from the previous page and turbine speed ... If you are demonstrating control of the boost pressure with the EWG, using the BMWhat data, then that data cannot represent a DDE set point... ummm, unless you've figured out a way to contol the DDE with that EWG?!

[DWR]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Yes, I have AFR and I'm adding large amounts of H2O/methanol + extra fuel in a progressive fashion after a specific rpm. The base map seems to target ~16:1. Stoichiometry of methanol is significantly lower than diesel. My AFR's get lower than 16:1 in the upper rpm range with ~800 ml/min of 50/50 mix. The H2O portion helps balance the EGT's at these high hp levels.

I haven't seen the KP39 copressor map, but I'm at lower boost psi at the rpm's where it's being primarily used. Hardly above stock levels... It was the big turbo I was mostly concerned with.

In the SCR mod thread I linked some calculators for calculating air flow amounts. The only point I think I may be just off the K26 map based on the analog gauge is at ~3900 rpm. But it's not substantially off the map... But this is also not accounting for the psi drop in the intercooler ... but the measurement is also after the H2O/methanol injectors which are adding dramatic levels of cooling and extra pressure from the extra injected mass...

I should really be measuring the boost directly after the turbo compressor, but didn't think it was worth the extra fussing around to find a good way to tap into that area.

Fantastic information!
16:1 is going to help keep it on the map. Do you have datalogs, without the modded JBD and H2O/Meth, just remap, you can share? Oh crap, you know what the next question is I am going to ask. Then with?

A while back hotrod182 showed what methanol could do. He was squirting about 120Hp (not in a manner I would want to emulate), by my calculation. Though I'm not sure he was combusting all 120Hp, as I don't think there was enough excess air with the small pressure increase he was seeing. For you, with only 1.3 pounds of excess air (16-14.7) for methanol combustion. Methanol's ~ 6:1 AFR is going to allow you about 11% more power. 400 cc/min methanol is ~ 40Hp. I think that puts you right on the money.

Pressure ratio is defined by inlet and outlet at the turbo. For sure, when everthing is said and done, measuring at the inlets and outs is best. Maybe that is a good use for a spare differential pressure sensor. At full boogie, inlet to the LP turbo won't be at atmospheric pressure, either. Anything that happens to the air after the turbo, cooling etc., doesn't change the operating point on the compressor map. Density ratio changes that you are referring to do effect the "other compressor", the engine.

So, while you didn't answer my question directly, I think I know where you are going. Trying to get back to the boost levels you had before the latest exhaust mods. Did I get that right?

[DWR]

Food for thought - HP turbo bypass valve tells the story of the little turbo's "range" of operation in a regulated 2-stage charging system (R2S). It gets bypassed before it's pressure ratio goes down to 1.05. For this application, the map below shows that it is contributing to the overall system pressure ratio to 3,200rpm.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by DWR

In part I agree, the fact that you aren't get any overboost error does indicate that increased boost limits are part of your remaps. I'm guessing the BMWhat parameter is misnamed and it really is just boost pressure. Having a deja vu moment from the previous page and turbine speed ... If you are demonstrating control of the boost pressure with the EWG, using the BMWhat data, then that data cannot represent a DDE set point... ummm, unless you've figured out a way to contol the DDE with that EWG?!

So from what iaknown observed, and also from what I think I've verified, is the Ecotune remap took out the overboost limp mode protection. iaknown, please correct me if I misinterpreted your results...

There's several BMWhat boost related parameters.

I'm not controlling the DDE boost setpoint with the EWG. I am trying to keep the turbo's in a safer region than what they were ...

[TDIwyse]

Responding within your post below in bold.

Originally Posted by DWR

Fantastic information!
16:1 is going to help keep it on the map. Do you have datalogs, without the modded JBD and H2O/Meth, just remap, you can share? Oh crap, you know what the next question is I am going to ask. Then with?

Glad you like it. I love data. I'm also digging your compressor maps. Where are you getting this info? And I'm assuming these maps are specifically related to the 335d turbos?

I've got lots of data I've posted in various places that would cover this.

I'm including some boost related data from stock, JBD and then Evolve remap that I had previously posted. These are absolute numbers and recorded from the Bav Tech tool... so they're not "actual" boost numbers, as we've verified with the analog gauge data. I believe these are actually the "set point" boost numbers. But until I get the INPA software up and running this is not verified. I did verify the IAT's are correct with Bav Tech and coming from the sensor in the charge pipe.

A while back hotrod182 showed what methanol could do. He was squirting about 120Hp (not in a manner I would want to emulate), by my calculation. Though I'm not sure he was combusting all 120Hp, as I don't think there was enough excess air with the small pressure increase he was seeing. For you, with only 1.3 pounds of excess air (16-14.7) for methanol combustion. Methanol's ~ 6:1 AFR is going to allow you about 11% more power. 400 cc/min methanol is ~ 40Hp. I think that puts you right on the money.

Hmm, I've been using this calculator (http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossa...calc.shtml)and I've found it to agree very well with stock settings, and then how my 1/4 mile times have progressed with various mods. My experience, and this calculator, would indicate your power levels estimates are on the low side. Also including an example impact to IAT's with and without H2O/meth injection (nozzle was ~6 inches before the IAT sensor)

Pressure ratio is defined by inlet and outlet at the turbo. For sure, when everthing is said and done, measuring at the inlets and outs is best. Maybe that is a good use for a spare differential pressure sensor. At full boogie, inlet to the LP turbo won't be at atmospheric pressure, either. Anything that happens to the air after the turbo, cooling etc., doesn't change the operating point on the compressor map. Density ratio changes that you are referring to do effect the "other compressor", the engine.

Agreed, I'm not measuring equivalent values the compressor maps are showing.

That's an excellent use for the differential pressure sensor. I used it to monitor exhaust backpressure in a similar fashion using Bav Tech. I did verify that Bav Tech was reading reasonable numbers from this sensor by applying pressure on one of the tubes while watching the reading change.

So, while you didn't answer my question directly, I think I know where you are going. Trying to get back to the boost levels you had before the latest exhaust mods. Did I get that right?

Yes. Although, based on comparing the android Torque app data, I think I was overboosting even when the SCR was in place. Maybe not quite as much as when I gutted the SCR and didn't have the EWG in place, but still well above the "set point".

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by DWR

Food for thought - HP turbo bypass valve tells the story of the little turbo's "range" of operation in a regulated 2-stage charging system (R2S). It gets bypassed before it's pressure ratio goes down to 1.05. For this application, the map below shows that it is contributing to the overall system pressure ratio to 3,200rpm.

Fascinating. Thanks.

I had posted this awhile back in a different thread. It's showing the bypass actuator behavior for a 3rd gear full fuel run. Assuming Bav Tech is actually reading this value correctly (the "actual boost" is not the same as the analog gauge was showing ... so this is a bit of speculation on the integrity of the BPA behavior). If this is accurate, it's showing a little different behavior vs rpm than your plot. But my graph is on a remapped DDE...

[DWR]

DWR A while back hotrod182 showed what methanol could do. He was squirting about 120Hp (not in a manner I would want to emulate), by my calculation. Though I'm not sure he was combusting all 120Hp, as I don't think there was enough excess air with the small pressure increase he was seeing. For you, with only 1.3 pounds of excess air (16-14.7) for methanol combustion. Methanol's ~ 6:1 AFR is going to allow you about 11% more power. 400 cc/min methanol is ~ 40Hp. I think that puts you right on the money.

TDIwyse Hmm, I've been using this calculator (http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossa...calc.shtml)and I've found it to agree very well with stock settings, and then how my 1/4 mile times have progressed with various mods. My experience, and this calculator, would indicate your power levels estimates are on the low side. Also including an example impact to IAT's with and without H2O/meth injection (nozzle was ~6 inches before the IAT sensor)

Yep, completely familiar with that calculator. It is pretty good. I was just calculating the Hp due to methanol combustion. As I said, the thermodynamic effects are much harder, so I did not attempt - have to make too many assumptions. What I really like is the author is up front that you can't really figure how much cooling water will give if you don't know the relative humidity of air, etc. That calculator will let you dump too much H2O and cool below the RH, not going to happen. Again, I bet it works great for you because you've size the sysyem appropriately. So, my guess with thermodynamics might double the figure I quoted.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Fascinating. Thanks.

I had posted this awhile back in a different thread. It's showing the bypass actuator behavior for a 3rd gear full fuel run. Assuming Bav Tech is actually reading this value correctly (the "actual boost" is not the same as the analog gauge was showing ... so this is a bit of speculation on the integrity of the BPA behavior). If this is accurate, it's showing a little different behavior vs rpm than your plot. But my graph is on a remapped DDE...

Yes, that last sentence was exactly my thought, after I made all those posts. I would only be guessing what happens to all the maps in a good remap.
I'm usually looking to understand the general concept so I can apply it to the specific situation. In the end, I think we both agree, bring your data - that's why I am excited about the INPA Logging. That's also why I enjoy your post.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Responding within your post below in bold.

TDI, what is the scale on the x-axis of the first 2 graphs?

[DWR]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

Fascinating. Thanks.

I had posted this awhile back in a different thread. It's showing the bypass actuator behavior for a 3rd gear full fuel run. Assuming Bav Tech is actually reading this value correctly (the "actual boost" is not the same as the analog gauge was showing ... so this is a bit of speculation on the integrity of the BPA behavior). If this is accurate, it's showing a little different behavior vs rpm than your plot. But my graph is on a remapped DDE...

Really interesting graph since the EUV is supposed to work like an on/off switch. Earlier actuation would make sense, if you are pushing more exhaust (horsepower) as these events would need to come on sooner. Makes me want to put a voltmeter on the EUV and go for a ride ... more data.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by DWR

TDI, what is the scale on the x-axis of the first 2 graphs?

Sorry, forgot to clarify that. Those were just "time steps". I didn't create an XY Scatter plot with RPM as the x-axis for those. I think the sample rate was ~every 0.2-0.3 seconds. Just intended to show the DDE change in boost setpoints and then impact on EGT's with JBD adding fuel without more boost, and then Evolve adding more fuel with more boost, and then some stacking of the two. The extra boost helped reduce EGT's for similar to more fueling than JBD alone at stock boost levels.

[DWR]

OK, I can confirm that the ECU maps that I provided are for an E60 535d. The engine is a 215Hp version of our engine, still using the same turbos. Can also confirm that a stock compressor bypass for a 335d comes on sooner (@2800rpm) than the older 535d, seen on the maps. Makes sense as the HP turbo will be "done" sooner, as horsepower increases.