[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

You want to know the truth?

It's because I don't get it. I don't understand the fervor for a subpar brand that has never built anything significant or even legendary, or achieved any engineering feat worthy of my attention. The entire range of cars across all their brands represent what I consider the most revolting compromise of style over substance.

Hear me out for a moment - I can't recall one Audi branded product that I could justifiably own over any of its counterparts, as they had nothing of substance to hold as beacon to potential buyers. A brand that ‘small’ engines with small output that produced just adequate acceleration and fuel economy, consistently bested by their Japanese counterparts, (Remember, this is the same company that still produces an engine with 8 valves, and 115hp. It’s pathetic.) Priced higher than arguably cars that are better equipped and coupled extremely spectrums of styling (early 2000s Audi styling was very conservative, current styling is very extremely loud. And ugly.) And this would all be ok, if it weren’t for the presumptuous owners who keep them afloat.
These people I despise the most, arrogantly parading around a brand whose crowning achievement is being almost as good as a BMW. This is very unlike Lexus, a brand that was unknown 30 years ago, is now a segment leader offering daring style, technological innovation, reliability and extreme quality, and doesn't settle for being "almost." It is. Sure, the A4 might be an ok car, but why would you buy one over a Lexus? Is it more luxurious than a Lexus ES, more sporty than an IS, does it offer a better balance than a 3 series? Probably not. Essentially, true quality, engineering and substance are overlooked in the name of “style.” The antiestablishment niche of these cars has essentially become the establishment, and if there ever was a brand that was the poster child of hipsters, Audi/VW would be the embodiment of it.

So basically... you hate hipsters...

Damn, not really what I was expecting. I was thinking more along the lines of you owned a VW and it spontaneously caught fire while at the same time locking all the doors leaving you trapped inside. So to this day you are horribly crippled and disfigured and carry nothing but pure hatred towards VW in your little black heart.

[P1]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

You want to know the truth?

It's because I don't get it. I don't understand the fervor for a subpar brand that has never built anything significant or even legendary, or achieved any engineering feat worthy of my attention. The entire range of cars across all their brands represent what I consider the most revolting compromise of style over substance.

Hear me out for a moment - I can't recall one Audi branded product that I could justifiably own over any of its counterparts, as they had nothing of substance to hold as beacon to potential buyers. A brand that ‘small’ engines with small output that produced just adequate acceleration and fuel economy, consistently bested by their Japanese counterparts, (Remember, this is the same company that still produces an engine with 8 valves, and 115hp. It’s pathetic.) Priced higher than arguably cars that are better equipped and coupled extremely spectrums of styling (early 2000s Audi styling was very conservative, current styling is very extremely loud. And ugly.) And this would all be ok, if it weren’t for the presumptuous owners who keep them afloat.
These people I despise the most, arrogantly parading around a brand whose crowning achievement is being almost as good as a BMW. This is very unlike Lexus, a brand that was unknown 30 years ago, is now a segment leader offering daring style, technological innovation, reliability and extreme quality, and doesn't settle for being "almost." It is. Sure, the A4 might be an ok car, but why would you buy one over a Lexus? Is it more luxurious than a Lexus ES, more sporty than an IS, does it offer a better balance than a 3 series? Probably not. Essentially, true quality, engineering and substance are overlooked in the name of “style.” The antiestablishment niche of these cars has essentially become the establishment, and if there ever was a brand that was the poster child of hipsters, Audi/VW would be the embodiment of it.

Your stance is very aggressive, although you're obviously entitled to your opinion. It think they produce beautifully engineered vehicles that catch my attention each and every time. I drive an X5, but it was my second choice. I really wanted a Q7 S-Line, but it was out of my budget so I settled. My wife wanted an A5 S-Line, but again, we settled with the 135i because it was out of our budget. My friend owns an R8 V10 and it's spectacular. I see the Allroads and my head always turns. Audi has a certain elegance about it that subdued. I'd love to have a GTI as a daily driver. You can scream and shout about them being unreliable, but my BMWs have been at the dealership plenty.

A Jap car such as the Lexus, a Toyota or a Honda might be more reliable. But do I buy a car because it's reliable? Or because its faster 0-60? I don't. I primarily buy a car because I like the way they look and they drive comfortably.

I have nothing against BMW or Mercedes. If they come out with a vehicle that catches my attention, I'll certainly weigh my options. I don't care who won the 24 Hours of Le Mans or who was the most technologically innovative. That doesn't determine whether I buy a vehicle or not.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

So basically... you hate hipsters...

Damn, not really what I was expecting. I was thinking more along the lines of you owned a VW and it spontaneously caught fire while at the same time locking all the doors leaving you trapped inside. So to this day you are horribly crippled and disfigured and carry nothing but pure hatred towards VW in your little black heart.

I can go on, this is just the tip of my hate. And yes, not a fan of hipster.s

[gatorfast]

For the guy hating VW/Audi, you need to separate the two. VW, the cheaper brand, compares very favorably to its Japanese counter parts. A car like a GTI is actually fun to drive and has a much higher quality interior than its price would suggest. Most enthusiasts would rather drive a car like that than something like a civic/accord which are literally the most boring cars in the world.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

For the guy hating VW/Audi, you need to separate the two. VW, the cheaper brand, compares very favorably to its Japanese counter parts. A car like a GTI is actually fun to drive and has a much higher quality interior than its price would suggest. Most enthusiasts would rather drive a car like that than something like a civic/accord which are literally the most boring cars in the world.

It doesn't compare at all - they are all trash. Seriously.

I would take an Accord Sport 6MT over every VW branded car without thinking twice. They are shitty cars with poorly engineered parts, horrid reliability and have no business costing anywhere near the price VW ask for them.

Audi is also trash. There has never been an Audi branded product that I actually liked. If you gave me one, I would honestly sell it and buy something else.

[gatorfast]

Lol have you ever actually driven a GTI or similar VW? You have no idea what you are talking about. They get rave reviews from owners (former GTI owner myself) and automotive journalists alike.

And what is poorly engineered about them? I believe the mkv GTI was one of, if not the first regular passenger cars to have a dual clutch transmission. The new GTIs apparently have a revolutionary new differential allowing power to be put down much more efficiently than typical fwd cars.

The Honda accord (former accord owner too) is literally the most boring way to get from A to B.

[Ehwnnc]

Please do find me a new accord for 15k.

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

It doesn't compare at all - they are all trash. Seriously.

I would take an Accord Sport 6MT over every VW branded car without thinking twice. They are shitty cars with poorly engineered parts, horrid reliability and have no business costing anywhere near the price VW ask for them.

Audi is also trash. There has never been an Audi branded product that I actually liked. If you gave me one, I would honestly sell it and buy something else.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Lol have you ever actually driven a GTI or similar VW? You have no idea what you are talking about. They get rave reviews from owners (former GTI owner myself) and automotive journalists alike.

And what is poorly engineered about them? I believe the mkv GTI was one of, if not the first regular passenger cars to have a dual clutch transmission. The new GTIs apparently have a revolutionary new differential allowing power to be put down much more efficiently than typical fwd cars.

The Honda accord (former accord owner too) is literally the most boring way to get from A to B.

No, a 115hp Jetta or Golf with a SOHC 8 valve motor would be worse.
Call me when those GTI owners stop complaining about a unbeatable Stability control system, or a new design engine that using a timing belt still, or carbon buildup, or $400 DGS services, etc.

Come to think about it, I've never seen a VW at Autocross when I went, but saw a ton of Hondas. For cars that people rave about driving, they sure don't actually like to drive them

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Ehwnnc

Please do find me a new accord for 15k.

How about a Mazda 3?

[P1]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

It doesn't compare at all - they are all trash. Seriously.

I would take an Accord Sport 6MT over every VW branded car without thinking twice. They are shitty cars with poorly engineered parts, horrid reliability and have no business costing anywhere near the price VW ask for them.

Audi is also trash. There has never been an Audi branded product that I actually liked. If you gave me one, I would honestly sell it and buy something else.

I still don't think we know the whole truth. I think it goes deeper. I think either your girl ran off with a VW salesman or once told you the hipster in the V10
R8 was "kinda cute".

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by P1et

I still don't think we know the whole truth. I think it goes deeper. I think either your girl ran off with a VW salesman or once told you the hipster in the V10
R8 was "kinda cute".

Nah.

[P1]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Nah.

Hmm...

[Nati0n]

Not to add fuel to the fire but I've always seen Mercedes and BMW as competitors and Audi a notch down from them, just in price points and in performance. Now speaking about my experiences here at elevation, their forced induction products that are mainly "S" cars (S4, S5, S8) all fall in a really interesting segment of their own that are pretty great. As far as their RS products, they're hit and miss. Some are really lackluster and some are adequate. When I saw an S4 beat an RS5 the other night I laughed really hard, but that's what 6000ft of elevation will do to you. As for BMW and Mercedes, their AMG and M products have always set the bar, not saying that Audi doesn't measure up but they don't always do depending on the car. Generally, I'm still a hardcore AMG/Mercedes fanboy (I love Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren, and Koenigsegg in the modern market) and would pick some modern AMG products over M products, but for right now the E90 platform will make the most sense for me.

I stand that for a reliable appliance car get a Japanese vehicle. They are insanely reliable. German cars are fun, inspiring, technologically impressive, and performance machines but they will cost you one way or another.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by Nati0n

Not to add fuel to the fire but I've always seen Mercedes and BMW as competitors and Audi a notch down from them, just in price points and in performance.

I somewhat agree but I think that changes when you move towards the more expensive models in the respective lineups. Agree the A3/A4 does not compare favorably the 1/3 series from BMW or CLA/C series from Mercedes. But once you start getting into the more expensive models (A/S6, A/S7, and RS models) they seem to hold their own or be ahead of the BMW/Mercedes competition in some respects at that point.

[954Stealth]

It seems like some of you are expecting 100k quality at 15k.
...not gonna happen...
Be realistic for the price point.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

You want to know the truth?

You're brand-prejudiced, plain and simple. You have zero first hand experience with the product you are hammering.

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

It's because I don't get it. I don't understand the fervor for a subpar brand that has never built anything significant or even legendary, or achieved any engineering feat worthy of my attention. The entire range of cars across all their brands represent what I consider the most revolting compromise of style over substance.

The GTI is THE hot hatch. It has a cult following and for good reason - it's a fantastic car. If everyone cared about reliability, exclusively, the world would be filled with what... the Toyota Matrix? ZZZZZZZZZZZ. Wake me when they build something exciting. FWIW, my brother has a 2007 Si on its second engine. My father has a 2009 GTI that still drives like it's brand new.

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Hear me out for a moment - I can't recall one Audi branded product that I could justifiably own over any of its counterparts, as they had nothing of substance to hold as beacon to potential buyers. A brand that ‘small’ engines with small output that produced just adequate acceleration and fuel economy, consistently bested by their Japanese counterparts, (Remember, this is the same company that still produces an engine with 8 valves, and 115hp. It’s pathetic.) Priced higher than arguably cars that are better equipped and coupled extremely spectrums of styling (early 2000s Audi styling was very conservative, current styling is very extremely loud. And ugly.) And this would all be ok, if it weren’t for the presumptuous owners who keep them afloat.

I bought my S4 because it had more features than the 335xi. It has an adjustable diff, push-button adjustable suspension, a nav that actually works (unlike my BMW of the same vintage), and many other creature comforts that I love (B&O sound system, fantastic seats, etc). There simply is no Japanese counterpart to my car. Why? Because they build bread and butter cars for people to drive back and forth from Publix. There is no excitement. They are no bark, no bite.

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

These people I despise the most, arrogantly parading around a brand whose crowning achievement is being almost as good as a BMW. This is very unlike Lexus, a brand that was unknown 30 years ago, is now a segment leader offering daring style, technological innovation, reliability and extreme quality, and doesn't settle for being "almost." It is. Sure, the A4 might be an ok car, but why would you buy one over a Lexus? Is it more luxurious than a Lexus ES, more sporty than an IS, does it offer a better balance than a 3 series? Probably not. Essentially, true quality, engineering and substance are overlooked in the name of “style.” The antiestablishment niche of these cars has essentially become the establishment, and if there ever was a brand that was the poster child of hipsters, Audi/VW would be the embodiment of it.

Which segments does Lexus lead? The BMW 3er has been the benchmark for decades. They, along with Audi and Mercedes, are the innovators. With innovation can come some level of lesser reliability, but that's a trade-off that many are willing to make. It's also how they stay ahead. You're not reaching for the future if you design an engine and leave it unchanged for 10+ years. That's how you get left in the dust...

The Lexus IS is one of my favorite car designs out there right now, but they've nixed the manual and carried over the same boring (yet surely reliable) engines from the last generation. Shouldn't a car that looks that radical and exciting have a drivetrain to match? Me thinks so. If they did so, I would put down my deposit today. Again... Lexus was almost there.

[Nati0n]

^I agree with this in that Japanese cars seem to use recycled technology once the Germans have perfected it 4-7 years down the line...

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Nati0n

^I agree with this in that Japanese cars seem to use recycled technology once the Germans have perfected it 4-7 years down the line...

Uh, like Rotary motors, like direct injection, like variable valve timing, like variable lift, like reliability.

The Japanese are incredibly innovative, and the cars show that: BMW didn't implement full cam phasing into their cars until the M52tu (unless you want to count the S50)

Direct injection? Nissan was building Direct Injection VQ engines from 1999, with outputs that were putting BMWs mainstream engines to shame.

And they implemented all this new technology while having rock solid reliability is an achievement on it's own.

[Red Bread]

It's weird, I feel like my colleague's Accord was just in the shop because it had such bad DI related carbon build up at 60k miles that it wouldn't idle.

I also feel like my dad's FD RX7 eats enough oil to make me believe the claims that Wankels will never pass current emissions standards.

I also feel like my 1999 Miata (outside of the recall zone) still spun a main bearing and died at 19k miles.

But I'm clearly remembering incorrectly, it must have been the two Audii and three BMW's I've had that were really the problem.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Uh, like Rotary motors, like direct injection, like variable valve timing, like variable lift, like reliability.

The Japanese are incredibly innovative, and the cars show that: BMW didn't implement full cam phasing into their cars until the M52tu (unless you want to count the S50)

Direct injection? Nissan was building Direct Injection VQ engines from 1999, with outputs that were putting BMWs mainstream engines to shame.

And they implemented all this new technology while having rock solid reliability is an achievement on it's own.

Looks like the Germans slightly edged out the Japanese on DI...

Wiki: The 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300SL, the first production sports car to use fuel injection, used direct injection.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

You're brand-prejudiced, plain and simple. You have zero first hand experience with the product you are hammering.

I don't apologize for my hate of VW, nor will I back down from it.

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

The GTI is THE hot hatch. It has a cult following and for good reason - it's a fantastic car. If everyone cared about reliability, exclusively, the world would be filled with what... the Toyota Matrix? ZZZZZZZZZZZ. Wake me when they build something exciting. FWIW, my brother has a 2007 Si on its second engine. My father has a 2009 GTI that still drives like it's brand new.

Not saying this is impossible, but it's highly unlikely. Honda is far away a more reliable brand from EVERY objective study I've ever seen. And for such a "fantastic" car, the GTI never finds itself in the hands of enthusiast on a Autocross - I do see TONS of Hondas though.

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

I bought my S4 because it had more features than the 335xi. It has an adjustable diff, push-button adjustable suspension, a nav that actually works (unlike my BMW of the same vintage), and many other creature comforts that I love (B&O sound system, fantastic seats, etc). There simply is no Japanese counterpart to my car. Why? Because they build bread and butter cars for people to drive back and forth from Publix. There is no excitement. They are no bark, no bite.

So you bought a FWD Golf streched into a sedan with AWD and think it's better than a well engineered RWD car? Ok.

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Which segments does Lexus lead? The BMW 3er has been the benchmark for decades. They, along with Audi and Mercedes, are the innovators. With innovation can come some level of lesser reliability, but that's a trade-off that many are willing to make. It's also how they stay ahead. You're not reaching for the future if you design an engine and leave it unchanged for 10+ years. That's how you get left in the dust...

HUH?
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...65-3-roa1013-5 Winner, Lexus

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...lexus_bmw.html
Winner, Lexus

Have fun with being a a second tier BMW Audi (because that's all it will ever be)

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

The Lexus IS is one of my favorite car designs out there right now, but they've nixed the manual and carried over the same boring (yet surely reliable) engines from the last generation. Shouldn't a car that looks that radical and exciting have a drivetrain to match? Me thinks so. If they did so, I would put down my deposit today. Again... Lexus was almost there.

Last generation engines from Toyota and Nissan are still better than anything Audi makes. In fact, I'm sure the GT-R walks away from anything made by any German make save the newest 911.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

It's weird, I feel like my colleague's Accord was just in the shop because it had such bad DI related carbon build up at 60k miles that it wouldn't idle.

I also feel like my dad's FD RX7 eats enough oil to make me believe the claims that Wankels will never pass current emissions standards.

I also feel like my 1999 Miata (outside of the recall zone) still spun a main bearing and died at 19k miles.

But I'm clearly remembering incorrectly, it must have been the two Audii and three BMW's I've had that were really the problem.

What Accord uses direct injection? The 4cyl is the K24 engine, and the V6 is the same J35 from the OLD J30 design back in the 6th generation (1998-2002) Accord. I'm not the most knowledgeable on Honda, but I think you're full of it.

For the record, ALL Mazda Rotary engines drink oil by design.