[TopQuark]

Originally Posted by Destroya

Admittedly I have not driven a Tesla. People talk about how fast they are and their range. But are they fun to drive? Do they handle well? Maybe those qualities do not matter to most buyers.
I think a lot of us on these forums are dinosaurs. Most millennials I know do not have the same relationship with their cars that I have. They care more about the gadgets in the car than the driving qualities.

I've driven the Model S. They are fun and handle well. Model S's center of gravity is low because most of the weigh is the battery on the vehicle platform. It feels like it is immune to roll over on sharp curves. It turns very quick. Acceleration feels weird because it reacts very fast to how you press or release the pedal. Definitely the future of driving and establishes a new benchmark.

The only reason I bought an F10 is I need the car now, can't wait for the Model 3 which will be looking like 2019 now considering the number of who placed deposits, and I cannot afford the Model S.

[spmd11]

Originally Posted by Destroya

Admittedly I have not driven a Tesla. People talk about how fast they are and their range. But are they fun to drive? Do they handle well? Maybe those qualities do not matter to most buyers.
I think a lot of us on these forums are dinosaurs. Most millennials I know do not have the same relationship with their cars that I have. They care more about the gadgets in the car than the driving qualities.

Do yourself a favor and go drive a Tesla. Also, Porsche is cranking out some awesome cars. No comparison in handling feel and precision in today's porsche vs today's BMW

[TopQuark]

BMW knows what the future looks like from their recent announcements with their iNext and Project i 2.0 programs:

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...umber-one-next

http://www.bmwblog.com/2016/03/09/fo...al-revolution/

But the issue is how fast can they catch up with Tesla's technology before Tesla becomes a formidable competitor. Tesla is not only building cars. They are building an infrastructure with their superchargers. This is totally a different way of competing with the established car makers and they were caught off guard.

In one of the BMW meetings, a BMW exec mentioned something about leading instead of following or they will just become another subcontractor of who owns the technology (...or something like that).

[spmd11]

Originally Posted by TopQuark

BMW knows what the future looks like from their recent announcements with their iNext and Project i 2.0 programs:

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/globa...umber-one-next

http://www.bmwblog.com/2016/03/09/fo...al-revolution/

But the issue is how fast can they catch up with Tesla's technology before Tesla becomes a formidable competitor. Tesla is not only building cars. They are building an infrastructure with their superchargers. This is totally a different way of competing with the established car makers and they were caught off guard.

In one of the BMW meetings, a BMW exec mentioned something about leading instead of following or they will just become another subcontractor of who owns the technology (...or something like that).

The market will reveal who is "right" among the manufacturer's, (the topic of this thread), and the future market results. Right now, the sales numbers and shareholder value for BMW are not looking good. Does any other manufacturer than Tesla have people lined up out the street all over the nation trying to pre-order a car?

[AndreyATC]

If anyone thinks Tesla is not stealing any orders from others...

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

BMWi and Tesla do not compete.
They might semi-compete because of their drivetrain. But in overall concept they do not. Its a familiar concept the US media fail to grasp.
They will eventually when we arrive with similar concepts but that won't be for a while. I would expect that Model 3 has in fact changed concept to reflect the US desire for SUV/Crossovers. Because that is what the Model 3 is,a Crossover.

It is not a Sport Sedan like the 3er if we want to directly compare concepts (not drivetrains) then the Model 3 would be a direct competitor for the BMW 3er Gran Turismo.

Hopefully when we progress through the build-up we will get to learn on how Model 3 when Teased a couple of years back looked like a smaller Model S and now on its journey to production it is now a Crossover.
Has the market brought this decisive change?

In regards to BMW doing nothing.?
The company has developed Power eDrive which will be available in three different levels from entry to high performance.
We will even feature this on M cars which we will shortly see soon enough.

Scott,
I think there is a bit of confusion in your post, and i apologize if misunderstood you
Model 3 is a sport sedan which will compete with 3-series sedan and grand coupe directly (also C-class, A4)
It will most likely be a better driving car that these two
However, since Model 3 will have roughly twice as much cargo space as regular 3-er with more legroom, it may also steal some 3GT sales
On top of that, it will eat i3 due to the fact that it has twice the range, better price and looks way better
Oh, it'll be AWD as well, if you need one

Last thing to keep in mind, Model 3 set new platform
I can guarantee, just like Model S and X shares platform, Model 3 will have an SUV brother

P.S. Remember blackberry vs iPhone?
Or Sony and where it is now from being in the top of TV / camcorder / Walkman business

Things changed
Better things are coming as the world progresses
And just like humans traded horses for cars, combustion engine will get replaced by new tech.

[spmd11]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Scott,
I think there is a bit of confusion in your post, and i apologize if misunderstood you
Model 3 is a sport sedan which will compete with 3-series sedan and grand coupe directly (also C-class, A4)
It will most likely be a better driving car that these two
However, since Model 3 will have roughly twice as much cargo space as regular 3-er with more legroom, it may also steal some 3GT sales
On top of that, it will eat i3 due to the fact that it has twice the range, better price and looks way better
Oh, it'll be AWD as well, if you need one

Last thing to keep in mind, Model 3 set new platform
I can guarantee, just like Model S and X shares platform, Model 3 will have an SUV brother

I could have paid cash for a new Tesla model 3 for the $35k in repairs that was put into my X5 --

If this doesn't get anyone's attention, I don't know what will. I have been a staunchly loyal BMW owner for 20+ years. I have only owned BMW cars during that period and I have purchased more than 20 BMW's new in that time. I'm also a shareholder. I have gone to Europe 3 times to the Welt receiving european delivery vehicles. I have sold dozens and dozens of BMWs for my dealership at my place of work because I have always had the reputation of being the "BMW" guy. We bought our X5 brand new in the Fall of 2010. I'm an airline pilot and a stickler for maintenance. I changed the oil every 7500 miles, paying my own interval and the car has been babied. We have replaced everything attached to the engine and even the transmission failed. It has been a shocking experience. Who these days can imagine handling $35,000 in repairs? I don't know if we will buy Porsche or Tesla next, but doesn't getting rid of an ICE sound like a good idea after what we have experienced? If it that doesn't blow your mind, the dealer nor BMWNA give a hoot that I have had this experience. I have not heard one word from BMW. What does that tell you? It tells you that they have no interest in brand loyalty, but customers like me actually do have value, whether they realize it or not.

[1cleanm6]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

If anyone thinks Tesla is not stealing any orders from others...

Holy moly. I knew it did but didn't realize it would be this bad. All other models are down for this year. I thought model s would die down however it seems to have been the opposite. Crazy that tesla has 25% market share in this segment.

[Fundguy1]

Still don't get the electric thing and probably won't until they stop making combustion cars.

[pbjjj]

Many of you brought up very good points that I hope BMW will listen. If I was on BMW's market development team, I definitely would check this forum first!

There are many reasons for the drop in BMW sales. Personally my biggest gripe is with the dealer experience. I have had such bad experience with BMW sales that I was completely turned off by the brand until I was referred to the CA who helped me with ED of my X1. I like X1 for its practicality and fuel efficiency. The driving experience is surprisingly satisfying and fun despite of its front-wheel drive bias. Nevertheless, I swear if it wasn't for this CA I would be driving a Audi Allroad today.

My second issue is that I think BMW is expensive for what they offer comparing to all other new cars out there today. For a $40k+ car, the halogen headlights that shine what seems like only 6 feet in front are just not excusable for anyone's standard. Many F48 X1 buyers pay about $45K to almost $50K for cars don't even come with blind-spot monitoring system and no available Apple CarPlay or Android Auto that are available for Honda and Hyundai. I opted out on a lot of the technology stuff just to keep my car around $40K after last year's ED discount. I am not sure if I will buy BMW again in about 5 years since I don't know what the market will be like then, but I know that in today's market given BMW's products, I will be looking at Audi cars, not BMW.

I still think BMW makes great cars, but they don't excel in any category any longer. BMW cars in the recent years have been disappointing for many long-time loyal enthusiasts with their light handling feel. Mazda has been praised for the handling more often than BMW recently. Furthermore, BMW is also falling behind in the technology offering. I feel that BMW has been playing catching up to their competitors in technology offering. BMW is making it easier and easier for the competitors to win over the potential buyers.

Tesla may not be a big threat to BMW at this time, but they do excel in making long-range electric cars that they can focus on improving. BMW needs to figure out what their strength is and refocus on it instead of using their energy and resource trying to expand their market share but ending up with making just average products.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

If anyone thinks Tesla is not stealing any orders from others...

Cool numbers but who is to say the A7 potential buyer didnt buy and A6 which is not listed, bmw 6 buyer disnt buy 4 series? The conclusion that its all or even in part tesla is a an assumption. I would like to know what tesla owners previous cars were (the full history). My guess is that many of them had ferrari maserati and other supercars and wanted something greener yet sporty. The lost of sales in hih luxury cars youve listed? I would guess is more of a downsizing to lower models or switching to other brands some ICE not in large part tesla

[spmd11]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

There will be a new 3er around or even on sale by the same time Tesla eventually launches the Model 3 around 2018.
There are many out there who saw what happened to Fisker and are concerned that with Tesla the rug can be pulled from underneath them.
They had a 3er challenger in development and everybody placed deposits on.y to lose out when they went bankrupt.

Tesla has 250,000 orders in 48 hours. So what do you have to say about that, mr. Scott26? How many i3's did you sell in March? Oh yeah, 332... lol

[TopQuark]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Cool numbers but who is to say the A7 potential buyer didnt buy and A6 which is not listed, bmw 6 buyer disnt buy 4 series? The conclusion that its all or even in part tesla is a an assumption. I would like to know what tesla owners previous cars were (the full history). My guess is that many of them had ferrari maserati and other supercars and wanted something greener yet sporty. The lost of sales in hih luxury cars youve listed? I would guess is more of a downsizing to lower models or switching to other brands some ICE not in large part tesla

It's not the potential buyers who downgraded. It's the price range the cars are selling and buyers are willing to pay. The vehicles listed in the table are within the same price bracket.

Being from the Bay Area, the buyers are not those driving the top end cars. Yes, there are some who sold their S-class and Ferrari for the Model S but most of the buyers are the C/E class and 3/5 series buyers who are upgrading their vehicles. Of course, this is just a small sample of the whole population. But if you look how many Model S are selling relative to, say, Ferrari, the 25k vehicles for 1 year is huge. Beating the Mercedes S-class and combined BMW 6/7 series in their game within a span of merely 4 years is not something anyone should take granted for.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by TopQuark

It's not the potential buyers who downgraded. It's the price range the cars are selling and buyers are willing to pay. The vehicles listed in the table are within the same price bracket.

Being from the Bay Area, the buyers are not those driving the top end cars. Yes, there are some who sold their S-class and Ferrari for the Model S but most of the buyers are the C/E class and 3/5 series buyers who are upgrading their vehicles. Of course, this is just a small sample of the whole population. But if you look how many Model S are selling relative to, say, Ferrari, the 25k vehicles for 1 year is huge. Beating the Mercedes S-class and combined BMW 6/7 series in their game within a span of merely 4 years is not something anyone should take granted for.

Tesla has 7500 tax advantage and dealership advantage, plus hype. Take any of those 3 away and you have equilibrium .

[scoale]

Originally Posted by spmd11

Do yourself a favor and go drive a Tesla. Also, Porsche is cranking out some awesome cars. No comparison in handling feel and precision in today's porsche vs today's BMW

Bought a Boxster S today. I have owned 4 BMW's, but the new offerings no longer feel special. I loved my ZHP and like my 335 IS, but I cannot get excited about BMW's new cars. I look forward to driving the M2 but will now consider other options where before I was fixated on BMW.

[spiceyxi]

Interesting sales figures, but I will join the overall complaining tone of the thread.

I am planning on replacing my e60 in the next year or so and their is not a new BMW that really excites me. The M2 is the closest and depending on how the Z5 turns out maybe that car. However, a car like the F-type really speaks to me the way the e86 did when it was first came out. That was a car I loved and based on that plus some other experiences put me in the seat of an e60 and a few years later a used e86 to go along with it. I will most likely pick up a gently used e90 M3 or if the drive lives up to the looks an F-type in ~1yr. I have loved my e60, but the new 5er just doesn't do it and just doesn't seem to be worth the money.

An SUV/SAV is nowhere on the list of cars to consider.

BMW, please make something I want to buy and drive.

[dlk001]

Maybe they were growing too fast and reached a point of Saturation.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by dlk001

Maybe they were growing too fast and reached a point of Saturation.

Yeah and now they think its bc they didnt build enough SUVs and they focused too much on sedans...

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

Cool numbers but who is to say the A7 potential buyer didnt buy and A6 which is not listed, bmw 6 buyer disnt buy 4 series? The conclusion that its all or even in part tesla is a an assumption. I would like to know what tesla owners previous cars were (the full history). My guess is that many of them had ferrari maserati and other supercars and wanted something greener yet sporty. The lost of sales in hih luxury cars youve listed? I would guess is more of a downsizing to lower models or switching to other brands some ICE not in large part tesla

I'm not saying Tesla stole these sales directly. The point is, there is a limited number of people who by large luxury cars in US. Say it's 100k people a year. Number just shows you where those buyers are in 2014 vs 2015
We cannot ignore the fact that every single brand is down while Tesla is up almost twice
It's not like number of lux sedans sales decreased over year, it's just shifted in Teslas favor
You can draw your own conclusions, but this is the picture I see

Are we going to see the same pattern in entry-level lux cars as well? Will see that in 2018

[E90M3JETS]

Originally Posted by bjcarls

Tell that to your boss, but I beat them in total revenue....growth rate doesn't matter.

It's just ignorant, I think BMW and almost all companies (besides Tesla and Amazon) are victims to #'s and growth versus building the "ultimate driving machine". Halogen is just a reference of something that shouldn't be in a $40k car. Not a comparison of what others are doing and getting higher growth rates.

Well said. I believe it is also due to the fact BMW has stopped to build unique cars. I still remember when the E46 came out it was totally different than any other car on the road inside and out. Nowadays BMW is so conservative that any product is not different than what Toyota/Lexus can offer at a significant discount. There is nothing special about it. M cars also fail to impress and became just tweaked versions of the "regular" models. I bet e46 and e90 M3 will be classic cars decades in the future while the the current generation will continue to decline in price as there is nothing special about it. My $0.02. Hope BMW hears us and change things fast

[Kjenndal]

I think iPerformance should be only BEV or FCEV and no halfhearted things (Hybrids).
I don’t want to biy Power eDrive cars because I don’t want a petrol engine in my car in the future. So BMW is maybe not my brand anymore.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by E90M3JETS

Well said. I believe it is also due to the fact BMW has stopped to build unique cars. I still remember when the E46 came out it was totally different than any other car on the road inside and out. Nowadays BMW is so conservative that any product is not different than what Toyota/Lexus can offer at a significant discount. There is nothing special about it. M cars also fail to impress and became just tweaked versions of the "regular" models. I bet e46 and e90 M3 will be classic cars decades in the future while the the current generation will continue to decline in price as there is nothing special about it. My $0.02. Hope BMW hears us and change things fast

M3s have always been tweaked versions of the regular models. E46 and E9X cars were no different. Amazing how people that don't like the current offering try to reinvent history.