[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

Humor doesn't translate well it seems.

Just a reminder if people take it personally... If the posts were taken as humour by the recipient, then I rest my case ;-)

[pz619]

Originally Posted by Kyle B

I would like to propose an 8000% tariff on all FWD BMWs attempting to enter the US.


#NotMyBimmer

I can support this.

[opihi5]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

I'd prefer my BMW be made in Germany.

I'd rather have my German performance car built in Mexico....said no one ever!

[shad0wfax]

Aren't some of the reasons that BMW has cars made in Mexico specifically because the high taxes on imports to the USA from Germany can be mitigated by taking advantage of the TPP/NAFTA type legislation and because Mexico has very low labor costs as opposed to the much higher labor costs of Germany? Engineer the car in Germany, make some of the parts in Germany, then perform just enough assembly in Mexico to be a "Mexican" made car, rather than a "German" made car, and voila, reduced taxes.

As a customer, I would prefer to buy BMWs that were built in Bavaria, to the greatest extent possible; I would happily pay more to do so. This is why I drive a M3 and not a generic 3, 5, 7, or X5. If more people knew that their standard 3, 5, 7, and X5 series vehicles were made of Mexican parts and assembled in Mexico, they might be less inclined to pay the premium for the BMW badge for a car made in that manner.

If I wanted cheap cars assembled with poor quality control, I would buy a Fiat 500L, Chrysler 200, or a Ford Fiesta. Part of my decision to own a E92 M3 is that it was made in Regensburg, and not Toluca.

If I wanted cheap cars assembled with good parts and fantastic quality control, I would buy Toyota, Honda, or newer Mazdas. (Some Mazda 3s are made in Mexico and some are made entirely in Hiroshima, Japan. I deliberately bought a Mazda 3 that was manufactured entirely in Hiroshima and it was fantastic, until someone decided to total their car and use mine as the method in which to accomplish that.)

Tariffs, duties, excises, and taxes on imports and exports have always been a problem and I do dislike it when the various states of the world meddle in business.

[David70]

Originally Posted by shad0wfax

Aren't some of the reasons that BMW has cars made in Mexico specifically because the high taxes on imports to the USA from Germany can be mitigated by taking advantage of the TPP/NAFTA type legislation and because Mexico has very low labor costs as opposed to the much higher labor costs of Germany?

Much of it has to do with the free trade agreement between Europe and Mexico so cars can be made in Mexico and both shipped to the U.S. or Europe with little to no taxes.

Originally Posted by shad0wfax

If I wanted cheap cars assembled with poor quality control, I would buy a Fiat 500L, Chrysler 200, or a Ford Fiesta. Part of my decision to own a E92 M3 is that it was made in Regensburg, and not Toluca.

If I wanted cheap cars assembled with good parts and fantastic quality control, I would buy Toyota, Honda, or newer Mazdas. (Some Mazda 3s are made in Mexico and some are made entirely in Hiroshima, Japan. I deliberately bought a Mazda 3 that was manufactured entirely in Hiroshima and it was fantastic, until someone decided to total their car and use mine as the method in which to accomplish that.)

The number below is the number of plants the manufacturer has. Interested in any research that shows that the cars manufactured in Mexico are lower quality because of where they are manufactured. CR-V and Fits, RAM, Silverado, Fusion, etc. besides the internet forums, I have never seen anything that can prove lower quality from these plants.

Toyota, BMW, and Audi are all building new plants, as I said above, much of it comes from the free trade agreements Mexico signed with much of the world, (and we recently decided are a idea for us). The world will move on with or without us and I read recently that 95% of the consumers in the world live outside of the U.S.

Chrysler 3 Engines, RAM, Promaster, Journey, Fiat 500
Ford 3 Fiesta, Fusion, MKZ, Hybrids, Engines, Foundry
GM 4 Cheyenne, Silverado, Sierra, Aveo, Trax, and others. Engines and transmissions
Mazda 1 Mazda 3
Honda 2 CR-V, Fit
Nissan 3 Pickups, Frontier, Tsuru, Tiida, NV200, YorkTaxi, Versa, others
Toyota 1 Tacoma
Volkswagen 2 Beetle, Classic, TDI, Jetta, Golf, High tech engines

[simsimma777]

Originally Posted by BeEmVe

In general more jobs have been lost due to automation than outsourcing:

https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-...5-95d1533d9a62

This is what I've never understood about the manufacturing argument. Why would you want those jobs?

a. Those jobs are dying and being replaced by automation. Your gonna give people jobs just to eventually lay them off.

b. The real value is created in the engineering/creative not manufacturing of a product. For example, iPhones value is largely realized by Apple not Foxconn. We should focus on creating STEM type jobs, which are higher paying and add a greater value to the economy.

c. How are 3rd world countries supposed to buy US imports if they lose the jobs that are growing their economies?

d. The consumer is going to pay the higher costs, and US companies are going to have less sales as a result.

[shad0wfax]

I'm curious to see if any of the Mexican plants can meet six sigma.

Some Mazda 3 are Hiroshima, JP.
Some Mazda 3 are Mexico.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by ballinisahabit

This is what I've never understood about the manufacturing argument. Why would you want those jobs?

a. Those jobs are dying and being replaced by automation. Your gonna give people jobs just to eventually lay them off.

b. The real value is created in the engineering/creative not manufacturing of a product. For example, iPhones value is largely realized by Apple not Foxconn. We should focus on creating STEM type jobs, which are higher paying and add a greater value to the economy.

c. How are 3rd world countries supposed to buy US imports if they lose the jobs that are growing their economies?

d. The consumer is going to pay the higher costs, and US companies are going to have less sales as a result.

Because the manufacturing argument speaks to the heart of the Trump supporter: a middle aged man with less than average education who probably lost his job in manufacturing and could not find an as good or better paying job...

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

Because the manufacturing argument speaks to the heart of the Trump supporter: a middle aged man with less than average education who probably lost his job in manufacturing and could not find an as good or better paying job...

Thats funny because I was invited to a "Deplorables" party recently and the driveway/street was filled with Porche's, Bimmers, Audi's and well equipped 4x4's

No one worked in manufacturing and everyone I met/knew was well accomplished in their chosen field

[jpnh]

When the time comes for me to replace my DD, one of those japanese built Mazda's will be near the top of the list for consideration

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Thats funny because I was invited to a "Deplorables" party recently and the driveway/street was filled with Porche's, Bimmers, Audi's and well equipped 4x4's

No one worked in manufacturing and everyone I met/knew was well accomplished in their chosen field

Well the well to do voted for him because of the tax break promises... But that's not where the majority of votes came from...

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

Well the well to do voted for him because of the tax break promises... But that's not where the majority of votes came from...

Not to get into politics but the well to do establishment opposed him tooth and nail

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Not to get into politics but the well to do establishment opposed him tooth and nail

I believe the intellectuals, but surely not the entrepreneurs who think with their dollars...

[mehring]

A very interesting discussion I must say as a German.

There's one very interesting comment from a well known german politician, Sigmar Gabriel, right after Trump announced his plans about import taxes for german cars build not in the USA.

The translated comment:
"The USA should build better cars if they want to be competitive on the european market".

If you speak German you can also have a look at the original source:
http://meedia.de/2017/01/16/die-usa-...z-applaudiert/

[simsimma777]

Originally Posted by mehring

A very interesting discussion I must say as a German.

There's one very interesting comment from a well known german politician, Sigmar Gabriel, right after Trump announced his plans about import taxes for german cars build not in the USA.

The translated comment:
"The USA should build better cars if they want to be competitive on the european market".

If you speak German you can also have a look at the original source:
http://meedia.de/2017/01/16/die-usa-...z-applaudiert/

Haha the funny thing is by Trump's logic, German cars should be built in Germany.

Why should German people allow companies to outsource their manufacturing jobs to the U.S.?

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by ballinisahabit

Haha the funny thing is by Trump's logic, German cars should be built in Germany.

Why should German people allow companies to outsource their manufacturing jobs to the U.S.?

If its "Designed" in Germany but manufactured in Mexico is it a German car or Mexican car?

I think as far as consumers go its a mexican car

You can split the baby and "assemble" it in Mexico from major components manufactured in 1st world countries

[simsimma777]

Originally Posted by jpnh

If its "Designed" in Germany but manufactured in Mexico is it a German car or Mexican car?

I think as far as consumers go its a mexican car

You can split the baby and "assemble" it in Mexico from major components manufactured in 1st world countries

I disagree. I think its still a German car, and I believe consumers see it as such. No one views the iPhone as a Chinese product.

A manufacturer is like a printer. If I printed out a 10 page report I wrote, I'll be damned if my printer takes the credit for writing it.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by ballinisahabit

This is what I've never understood about the manufacturing argument. Why would you want those jobs?

a. Those jobs are dying and being replaced by automation. Your gonna give people jobs just to eventually lay them off.

b. The real value is created in the engineering/creative not manufacturing of a product. For example, iPhones value is largely realized by Apple not Foxconn. We should focus on creating STEM type jobs, which are higher paying and add a greater value to the economy.

c. How are 3rd world countries supposed to buy US imports if they lose the jobs that are growing their economies?

d. The consumer is going to pay the higher costs, and US companies are going to have less sales as a result.

THANK YOU.

This, in a nutshell, is how the globalization of trade should work. Trade begets trade. Progress begets progress. Growth begets growth. It's really trickle-down Reaganomics applied to the world-order of nations instead of the tiers within a corporation.

The problem is it only works if every practitioner applies it fairly equally -- and, thus, protectionism chokes it off for all involved. Basically:

"No, I don't want your spaghetti with meatballs because the meat doesn't agree with my constitution. Instead, I'll make and eat my own plain spaghetti." What this causes:
- Malnutrition in the protectionist country (i.e., a lack of choice. IOW, "You don't know what you're missing.")
- Economic hardship in the meatball-making country ("Who's going to buy our meatballs now?")
- An effort by the protectionist country to make its own meatballs, which end up being both lower quality (lack of competition) and more expensive (an economy of scale), which hinders sales and eventually kills off the market ("Well, we tried making meatballs that agreed with our constitution, but it just didn't work. So: no meatballs for anybody!")
- The meatball industry suffers globally
So who wants to eat just plain spaghetti, but pay more for that plain spaghetti than the spaghetti and meatballs? No one I know!

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by shad0wfax

Aren't some of the reasons that BMW has cars made in Mexico specifically because the high taxes on imports to the USA from Germany can be mitigated by taking advantage of the TPP/NAFTA type legislation and because Mexico has very low labor costs as opposed to the much higher labor costs of Germany? Engineer the car in Germany, make some of the parts in Germany, then perform just enough assembly in Mexico to be a "Mexican" made car, rather than a "German" made car, and voila, reduced taxes.

As a customer, I would prefer to buy BMWs that were built in Bavaria, to the greatest extent possible; I would happily pay more to do so. This is why I drive a M3 and not a generic 3, 5, 7, or X5. If more people knew that their standard 3, 5, 7, and X5 series vehicles were made of Mexican parts and assembled in Mexico, they might be less inclined to pay the premium for the BMW badge for a car made in that manner.

If I wanted cheap cars assembled with poor quality control

Tariffs, duties, excises, and taxes on imports and exports have always been a problem and I do dislike it when the various states of the world meddle in business.

I'm curious to see if any of the Mexican plants can meet six sigma.

Tariffs were a significant part when Lerma Motors (Bayerische Motoren Werke de México S.A. de C.V.) was established and the Toluca Mexico Assembly Plants opened in 1994. The 3 facilities produce BMW Motorrad, PKD and CKD assembly of X1, X3, X5, 3er, 5er, and 7er, and due to it's best in network quality control (it's Lean Six Sigma), a 3rd facility manufactures 5 Series Security for the world (exclusive to this location), X5 Security/Security Plus, and 760Li High Security vehicles. Only M GmbH in Germany and the recent JV with O'Gara Hess Eisenhart in Ohio (solely for the US Government exclusive special services Fleet Contract) have the expertise and ability to meet the strict demands these vehicles require. All vehicles assembled in Toluca contain 50% or more locally supplied parts content. Additional component capacity supports Spartanburg, China, and both Brazil Plants.

The big problem affecting manufacturers is the Divergent Regulatory Standards between the US and The UNECE 1958 Agreement Member States. It adds $5,400 in additional development costs and $1,200 in material costs per vehicle. TTIP is a clusterfuck, The US is no longer a member of TPP as of Jan 23, and NAFTA is in danger.

The change up in BMW Americas leadership is a signal. If additional tariffs are applied, all Production for the US market can be moved exclusively to Spartanburg. The new additional Mexico plant can pick up the export capacity and can be expanded to handle 3x's what Spartanburg could when needed.

I was sitting at the table with a nomination to the advisory board if I wanted it. The choice was easy. I declined, resigned from everything, and will enjoy watching this shit show unfold from someplace much more pleasant.

[shad0wfax]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Tariffs were a significant part when Lerma Motors (Bayerische Motoren Werke de México S.A. de C.V.) was established and the Toluca Mexico Assembly Plants opened in 1994. The 3 facilities produce BMW Motorrad, PKD and CKD assembly of X1, X3, X5, 3er, 5er, and 7er, and due to it's best in network quality control (it's Lean Six Sigma), a 3rd facility manufactures 5 Series Security for the world (exclusive to this location), X5 Security/Security Plus, and 760Li High Security vehicles. Only M GmbH in Germany and the recent JV with O'Gara Hess Eisenhart in Ohio (solely for the US Government exclusive special services Fleet Contract) have the expertise and ability to meet the strict demands these vehicles require. All vehicles assembled in Toluca contain 50% or more locally supplied parts content. Additional component capacity supports Spartanburg, China, and both Brazil Plants.

The big problem affecting manufacturers is the Divergent Regulatory Standards between the US and The UNECE 1958 Agreement Member States. It adds $5,400 in additional development costs and $1,200 in material costs per vehicle. TTIP is a clusterfuck, The US is no longer a member of TPP as of Jan 23, and NAFTA is in danger.

The change up in BMW Americas leadership is a signal. If additional tariffs are applied, all Production for the US market can be moved exclusively to Spartanburg. The new additional Mexico plant can pick up the export capacity and can be expanded to handle 3x's what Spartanburg could when needed.

I was sitting at the table with a nomination to the advisory board if I wanted it. The choice was easy. I declined, resigned from everything, and will enjoy watching this shit show unfold from someplace much more pleasant.

I had no idea that the Toluca plant was six sigma; that's saying something. Are the Mexican sourced parts also produced lean six sigma or is it only the Toluca assembly line that is? (I would doubt that the Chinese source parts are six sigma, but it's possible.)

I did know that the M division is still GmbH; that's why I'm here and driving a M3.

I'm not questioning BMWs decision to meet US market demand while keeping cost low; it makes good business sense, and the agility afforded BMW by having Spartanburg and Toluca is important. I'd simply rather pay more for a genuine German vehicle, or at least have the option to do so. Sadly, with the way fleet vehicles are distributed, it would not make sense for BMW to offer a German 5 and a Toluca 5 for sale in the US with a price disparity; the German cars wouldn't sell well, on the whole, and would be marked down at year-end to make room for new inventory, resulting in lower margin and weaker sales figures on release.

It all comes down to tariffs. It's still amazing to me that Japan, and more recently South Korea, have been able to produce excellent vehicles that have a wide consumer demand in the USA, sell very well, outdo their domestic car counterparts, and all while still being made overseas (in some cases).

Edit: you're definitely right about one thing, BMW is sending a strong signal.

[CalCarNut]

Originally Posted by mehring

A very interesting discussion I must say as a German.

There's one very interesting comment from a well known german politician, Sigmar Gabriel, right after Trump announced his plans about import taxes for german cars build not in the USA.

The translated comment:
"The USA should build better cars if they want to be competitive on the european market".

If you speak German you can also have a look at the original source:
http://meedia.de/2017/01/16/die-usa-...z-applaudiert/

GMs Alpha platform stands out as 'as good if not better' than most german platforms...BMW included.

[supra93]

A possible import tax on foreign vehicles could seriously affect automakers, but some more than others.

A study conducted by Baum & Associates estimates how much vehicle prices from individual automakers would have to increase if President Donald Trump’s big border tax comes into effect. For Jaguar Land Rover, that cost could be more than $17,000 per vehicle, since the automaker imports all of its vehicles. Ford, however, with many of its models built in the U.S., would have the smallest price increase at $282 per vehicle, while General Motors follows at $995.

Naturally, it wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense if Jaguar Land Rover vehicles suddenly became $17,000 more expensive in the U.S. Automakers aren’t likely to increase their prices by more than a few thousand dollars, and would likely absorb some of the tax burden.

The study estimates Volvo would have to raise its prices by about $7,600 on average, while Volkswagen would be $6,800.

The big border tax is under consideration as President Trump continues his campaign of creating more American jobs. Some automakers like Ford have already canceled plans of building factories in neighboring countries, although other automakers like BMW aren’t making a move until something becomes definitive.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...rder-tax-.html