[Vudoo4u2]

So...if someone ordered the rev2 from the first batch, will it arrive with these new maps, or will it arrive with the maps that are currently posted?

If my friend had to wait an extra month for the new maps to ship with the device...is that possible to delay his order shipment?

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by Vudoo4u2

So...if someone ordered the rev2 from the first batch, will it arrive with these new maps, or will it arrive with the maps that are currently posted?

If my friend had to wait an extra month for the new maps to ship with the device...is that possible to delay his order shipment?

rev II will ship with the new maps

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Vudoo4u2

So...if someone ordered the rev2 from the first batch, will it arrive with these new maps, or will it arrive with the maps that are currently posted?

If my friend had to wait an extra month for the new maps to ship with the device...is that possible to delay his order shipment?

All the rev2s we have shipped have been shipped with the maps that I just posted. More maps to come soon.

shiv

[Vudoo4u2]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

All the rev2s we have shipped have been shipped with the maps that I just posted. More maps to come soon.

shiv

Jpsimon, and shiv

Thank you!

(I'll let my buddy know)

[Ryan@Motorwerks]

Shiv:
Do you think this is the reason why gppro seemed unable to get more than 400whp with their upgraded turbos and flash tune?

[MisterSkiMask]

Shiv, I have a question. Now that you are controlling the throttle body are you making the corresponding adjustments to the fuel injectors?

In the old days (lets go back to carbs for the sake of argument), when you control the throttle plate you control both fuel and air. With throttle by wire if you just take control of the air flow you could induce a lean condition, on an engine that is supposed to run pretty lean for emissions reasons, and potentially damage the engine.

Executive summary for the people who can’t read more then one line:

Will the engine run lean because it is expecting less air then you are giving it.

[JoeyFiasco]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

All the rev2s we have shipped have been shipped with the maps that I just posted. More maps to come soon.

shiv

got mine today!

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You will see the effects of better torque targeting on the dyno and on the drag strip. You'll see more consistency and a reduction in humps and dips caused by big throttle closures. But it's really at partial throttle and during transitions from one throttle position to another (how you drive 100% of the time) where this will be obvious. You will think that we managed to make boost come in 500% faster than before. And that we employed some Sprint Booster-like TPS trickery. When all we did was greatly reduce the time it takes for the factory ECU to "zero in" on its load target.



It's safer because we greatly reduce the tendency of tuned cars to overshoot the torque target. Which then results in a negative correction followed by a throttle oscillation event. All that does is blur the torque response of the motor and force the turbos to spin harder than they need to in order to achieve the boost target (which generates heat).

It's one thing to close the throttle by 50% on a stock car that runs 7-8psi. The factory turbos have plenty of extra headroom at that boost level. But at 15psi where the turbos are operating closer to their max flow limit, a big throttle closure will force them to work harder than they want to. In fact, we were able to bring peak wastegate DC down by at least 5% by this feature alone. That's a huge improvement in stress reduction and expected turbo life.

Shiv

Excellent information in here. Thank you. One issue is the claim that closing the throttle hurts the turbo life b/c it pushes them harder to make, for example, 15psi with a 50% closed throttle. The MAP sensor is before the throttle so closing the throttle plate will restrict flow and actually make it easier for the turbo to hit 15 psi. The end result is still choking the motor I just don't think the TP closure hurts the turbos. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks again.

[Ilma]

There are actually two sensors.......a TMAP sensor BEFORE the throttle body and a MAP sensor POST throttle body on the intake manifold.

I believe most of the tunes tap into the TMAP sensor for their signal manipulation.

[Vince@ V K Motorwerks]

This makes complete sense, I always that my car was feeling,"held" back from time to time. Your write-up makes complete sense. I'm looking forward to trying out this tune.

-Vince

[OpenFlash]

Hi there,

Answers below!

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Shiv, I have a question. Now that you are controlling the throttle body are you making the corresponding adjustments to the fuel injectors?

We aren't controlling the throttle body. Have have absolutely no direct control of it. All we did was discover what kind of dynamic load characteristics that the ECU is comfortable with. And this results in the less frequent and less severe throttle closure. If, for any reasons, the ECU notices over-boost, over-knock, or anything else unsavory, it WILL still close the throttle. Controlling the throttle directly really can't be done without bypassing/eliminating all the other functions integrated into ETC (cruise control, rev limiting, etc,.)

In the old days (lets go back to carbs for the sake of argument), when you control the throttle plate you control both fuel and air. With throttle by wire if you just take control of the air flow you could induce a lean condition, on an engine that is supposed to run pretty lean for emissions reasons, and potentially damage the engine.

Okay.

Executive summary for the people who can’t read more then one line:

Will the engine run lean because it is expecting less air then you are giving it.

This is no different than any tuning approach, past or present. The factory ECU runs closed loop fuel control. The only way to force it to run lean would be to run so much boost (20+psi) that it runs out of fuel correction range, drop the fuel pressure dramatically or to bias the wideband sensors in the opposite direction so that lean is the new rick

But I think I know where you are coming from. Just realize that we don't force the throttle open. The ECU will sill close it as/if it sees fit. The only reason it is less prone to closing now is because the tuning is more transparent and better integrated than before.

Shiv

[dadasracecar]

Originally Posted by Ilma

There are actually two sensors.......a TMAP sensor BEFORE the throttle body and a MAP sensor POST throttle body on the intake manifold.

I believe most of the tunes tap into the TMAP sensor for their signal manipulation.

Correct, however the MAP sensor post TB is for reading vacuum only. The boost pressure is measured in the TMAP pre TB. Hence closing the TP will hurt turbo longevity. It'll make it easier to hit any boost level.

[Aridk]

Sorry just cautht up on this thread today, impressive readingI`m not a guines on tunning but i have an old alfa gtv with a (I know) small 1,8 milano turbo eng. running other ecu/larger Ic/hybrid turbo/cams/catless(was like that in these dayes overhereStill has 250 hp so deserves a little respect. Running this car on the dyno my boost gauge was a steady 15 psi but when datalogging it had more spikes than mont Everest.

I know there is a tunnerwar going on here, and of course we have to be open to all new input, but to all of you Shiv pickers Let him has his moment off glory, I realy believe he has found something new here

Someone Also mentioned that a flashtune would be superiour, that might be the case some where else, I don`t think any other tuner has done as much testing as Vishnu. And once a tuner has done one flash thats mostly it, here you get continious upgrades.

Also the talk of diagnostic invisibility, if you look at it with a little common sence what do you think would tricker it the throttle going like a jackhammer or the throttle that worked like it was intendet to??

Just my 5 cent`s

[Noize]

Shiv,

One place I've always noticed throttle closure and extreme power dive in these cars on the street and on a dyno is high RPM, say 6300 and above. The nonstop rain here has prevented me from revving higher, but will the car pull strongly to redline now? Or was that more of a factor of the turbos running out of steam than the throttle plate closing?

[dadasracecar]

This is a relatively common problem nowadays and Shiv's analysis is spot on. We ran into the same problem with the Mazdaspeed vehicles. Ultimately cp-e was able to flash the ecu to keep the TP open.

I wrote about it here:http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.ph...yno+comparison

[TMR]

Where is Part 2?

[mmmotornutz]

Hmm, I am sorry if I missed it. Under what conditions does the ECU close the TP? And from the driver's POV why does it close?

[Lane]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar

This is a relatively common problem nowadays and Shiv's analysis is spot on. We ran into the same problem with the Mazdaspeed vehicles. Ultimately cp-e was able to flash the ecu to keep the TP open.

I wrote about it here:http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.ph...yno+comparison

+1 on throttle being a well known and important variable. However, we should not concentrate on keeping throttle 100% open. If that were the objective, we should start by removing the tune. That, as Shiv said, would reach that goal better. Personally I would aim at better performance as the ultimate goal. Let's hope there are ways to reach better performance. I don't care by which tuning strategy its reached.