[ss134]

Excellent advice on the last 2 posts.......you HAVE to go down the legal route, going bankrupt should be your absolut LAST resort after all other avenues have been explored.

[dxb335d]

Do you have credit card bills from your father who has used it?!


Any maintenance paid by him!?

[foxy-367]

Mate shit break.

I'm at a loss though I could understand their point if you had totalled the car, but being as it was pinched it shouldn't matter who's name's on either the V5 or the main driver. It was nicked and that's what insurance is for.

Hope you catch a break with this.

[greer4411]

How old are you mate.

If you under 25 then, the insurance will be looking at it as a fronted policy, i used to work for a big insurance company when i was fresh out of uni, and they got it all the time.

they get claims investigators out to interview next door and the whole bloody street to take statments who they see driving the most etc.

they build up loads of evidence, incase you take them to court etc to prove you wrong etc.. that can put you in a worst place.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

PS - NFS is right, but here I would take the view that perhaps the OP isn't as confident or comfortable as some of us (particularly you NFS) are with dealing with this kind of thing. I go back to my last post about how it may be better to put some money in to hit it hard from the start.

Good advice. An hour with a decent solicitor would be £200 well spent at this point.

[warriorboy]

Originally Posted by greer4411

How old are you mate.

If you under 25 then, the insurance will be looking at it as a fronted policy, i used to work for a big insurance company when i was fresh out of uni, and they got it all the time.

they get claims investigators out to interview next door and the whole bloody street to take statments who they see driving the most etc.

they build up loads of evidence, incase you take them to court etc to prove you wrong etc.. that can put you in a worst place.

hand on heart your dad uses it as much as you???

I have had insurance in my own name ever since I could drive, and was paying over a grand then for a 1.0 fiat uno 45 fire worth about 2.5k

it was tempting at the time to get insurance in the mother's name.
I feel your pain dude as Id be gutted if anything happened to my pride and joy, but should have been up front with the insurance from day 1, and sought their advice before taking out the policy, we all know what a bunch of slimy toads they are, whose sole aim is to pay out as little as possible. I have found this out from bitter experience.

[scooba0010]

Originally Posted by bmw330dconv

life throws things at you, this is the toughest i have had so far

I dont have a clue really but how about you default on the payments and say 3UCK you BMW take me to court we will battle it out there

[SteveC]

Essentially, your insurance company is accusing you of 'fronting' and using the accusation as grounds for not settling your claim.

First and foremost in British law, you are innocent until proven guilty, so this is a bluff on the part of the insurance company. Accepting their ruling is, in effect, an admission that you were indeed doing that of which you are accused. However, right now your insurance company is in breach of its contract with your father and will remain so until it can prove that you and your father had indeed filled in its application documents fraudulently.

Essentially, you have 2 obligations; one to the finance company to make the agreed payments, maintain their vehicle in good order, keep it in your possession and keep it comprehensively insured and one to the insurance company to fill in their forms fully, honestly and correctly and pay their premium.

If you look at V5C Registration Certificate under section 5, Registered Keeper, you will see a statement C.4.c The registered keeper in not necessarily the legal owner.

You should obtain a statement from the DVLA on the official definition of 'registered keeper'. You may then point out that registering the vehicle in your father's name was done in order to ensure compliance with the DVLA's requirements. The fact that the car is kept at your father's address and that he is the main driver are certainly grounds for defining your father as the legal 'Keeper' (not owner) of the vehicle.

Then comes the concept of 'main driver'. This is a very wooly definition. Is it based who drives the most miles, sits behind the wheel for the most hours etc?. 'Main driver' is in fact synonymous with 'Policy Holder' and main driver details are used by the insurance company to calculate risk and set policy premiums. Considerations such as driving experience, claims record, annual mileage, post code where the car is kept and how the car is stored overnight are all used to compute the eventual policy premium. If the policy holder makes a false declaration regarding the main driver, then he or she has committed fraud, however its up to Insurance Company to prove that fraud has indeed been committed.

Your problem is that your situation fits the same 'profile' as the majority of 'fronting' cases, where a car is driven by a young, inexperienced, high risk driver but the insurance policy is taken out in the name of a more experienced parent with the goal of reducing the premium.

Legally speaking (which btw I'm not qualified to do) the insurance company needs to prove fraud as ground for wityhholding payment. However, by withholding the compensation, the initiative passes to your father to enforce his contractual rights under law i.e he needs to force the insurance company to pay up, or said differently, he must challenge the insurance company to prove fraud in a court of law.

The insurance company are facing a £26,000 payout. If they rate their chances of proving fraud as high, they will go to court. If on the other hand they rate their chances as low, i.e on investigation they cannot find evidence of fraud, they will settle.

So, its up to you to prove to the insurance company your veracity i.e to prove that your father took out the policy honestly and in good faith and made no false declarations.

I would do this as follows:

1. Get the statement from DVLA defining registered keeper and show compliance with their requirements i.e show why the car is registered in your father's name
2. Collect all invoices for petrol, repairs and maintenance that show your father's participation in the car's running costs
3. Draw up a statement and have all your neighbours sign it; something like:
I the undersigned bear witness to the fact that vehicle (registration xxxxxx) stands overnight at (your father's address). Further I have observed that said vehicle is driven regularly by (your father's name)
4. Have a lawyer assist you with preparing the witness statements in #3 then provide 1-3 to your lawyer and have him/her write a letter to your insurance company demanding that they fulfil their contractual obligations.

By way of disclaimer, I have no legal qualifications so please taken this as unqualified 'opinion' of what constitutes best action.

[xenon]

I agree with that. As an aside, the "Innocent until proven guilty" is not really relevant as that's criminal law and this is a civil case, more particularly a contract dispute of who said what and what was meant.

However, as has been said many times you must get proper, qualified advice. Only you know if you were fronting the policy but it might be difficult to prove one way or the other.

[dxb335d]

Has your father ever paid for any servicing or fuel costs?

[AlanQS]

My son works in insurance and I asked him to check into it. As everyone has said, the reason is that they consider you were fronting the insurance.

You should get their reasons for refusing in writing from them - perversely, there may be a fee charged for doing so.

If you take it to court, they will speak to neighbours etc. to check up on you, so Steve's advice is very good - it pre-empts them nicely. If they think they are likely to lose a court case, they will settle. Insurance companies always settle if they are not certain that they would win a court case.

As an aside, if they get away with it, they would have to refund you your entire premium as this would mean that, since they never had a risk to cover, they are not entitled to the money.

[lons]

What a bloody awful thing to happen to anybody

You've had mountains of excellent advice and you've just got to push it now as far is it will go.

I'm not involved in the industry but my son was for a number of years and late father in law was a branch manager for one of the big boys.

As a general principal, insurance companies tend to pay out if or when it gets to the point that it will not be cost effective to continue refusal. i.e. they would cut their losses. Before doing that however they can employ delaying tactics, easily justified as investigation process, in the hope that the claimant will get pissed off and give up - many do, especially if the claim is false.

There are factors detrimental to your claim in that:

1). It is a very significant sum.

2). There are a huge % of fraudulant policies and ins cos are taking a very hard line.

3). Right or wrong, your circumstances suggest "fronted policy" and warning bells start to ring.

The claims process is normally handled by relatively junior staff and you need to escallate this as soon as possible. Once very senior managers get involved it becomes much more expensive for them and is looked at more critically. Can work against you if you have been fibbing tho!

I believe that the major insurance companies are genuine and not trying to screw anybody but in the current society they are having to pay out vast amounts in fraudulent claims, uninsured driver accidents and no win / no fee marketing exposure that actively promotes claims for anything from a broken fingernail ffs.
They are in business to make a profit and it's all the cheating that all of us pay for in the end through increased premiums and a policy which dictates everyone is suspected of possibly screwing the companies.

I suggest you find out exactly who you are dealing with at BMW and are they at senior level.
Get comprehensive refusal details in writing and I personally would refuse to pay for that information.
Ask them for details of how to refer to the ombudsman (May have already provided that) but it tells them you are serious.
Take legal advice and accept it - either way. (If your solicitor says you're screwed then you probably are).
If you've got a case then go for it

Who underwrites BMW assurance anyway?

good luck mate

[toxicnerve]

Hrm,

The OP has not replied for a couple of pages now. People have given some very sensible advice and pointers but he has not come back and posted regarding receipts for servicing, fuel etc...maybe some of our (and the insurance company's) suspicions are correct?

OP, you really should post back and clarify the situation as at the moment it's looking like ther policy was fronted. If you have a geniune case then I am sure people here will be more than willing to help...

[G82Dude]

You need to take professional advice pure and simple; there is no other alternative.

Are there no solicitors on this site who are willing to offer (without prejudice) some advice (obviously not through the public forum)? Can't believe all these BMW drivers and not a solicitor amongst them...? ;o)

[peterg1965]

Where is the OP? I hope he has sought legal advice and heeded the comments made here, this is not a lost cause by any means.

[RagingKileak]

Originally Posted by toxicnerve

Hrm,

The OP has not replied for a couple of pages now. People have given some very sensible advice and pointers but he has not come back and posted regarding receipts for servicing, fuel etc...maybe some of our (and the insurance company's) suspicions are correct?

OP, you really should post back and clarify the situation as at the moment it's looking like ther policy was fronted. If you have a geniune case then I am sure people here will be more than willing to help...

Aye.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt right from the start but caveated this kind of stuff too.

Let's be honest, we almost certainly KNOW the score, however most of us have been there too. And not forgetting that really, the cost of insurance (as I have ranted about before) is totally unacceptable.

If the OP had been quoted £3000 for insurance but had set his heart on the car, who can blame him?

I know I have been there - no longer - but for many years I was insured under my Girlfriends policy for just that reason.

Question is, do we all want the OP to succeed because we feel for him? Or would we rather he didn't because it is this kind of thing which puts insurance up for everyone?

My view is - the cause of this claim was a crime and the right and moral thing would be that he gets his money back. He wasn't driving like a clown and crashed, although one could argue an older, more experienced person might have taken more care. Conversely though, could have been even easier to do over.

I don't personally aspire to the Laws of England at all. I conform to my own moral code of laws... Dungeon and Dragons would called me 'Chaotic Good' and it just so happens that most of my views do conform to what is legal.

To reiterate, in this case, I don't care if the OP has broken the LAW, I would rather he got his money back, bought a Fiesta, insured it himself and learnt his fucking lesson!

Matt

[dxb335d]

TBH, Ive never ever done a policy like that ever. Always on my own name. I even paid 1400 quid in 2002 for a car that cost 800 quid on my own name. (Group 14 and I was 18)
My opinion is, you want that car, you stump up the insurance for it. (Legitimately)

[Irnbrukid]

Did the OP not say his father already had a car (RAV4 was it) if so then would one of the cars that are insured be as a second car and which one. Or would this only count if they were both insured through the same company.

[dxb335d]

I dont think they do insurance for 2nd cars.

[Irnbrukid]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I dont think they do insurance for 2nd cars.

Who? BMW insurance

What i meant was if his father is insuring 2 cars then it may look 'suss' if the BMW is the second car would you not have the most expensive one as the first car.

But i think reading through the lines his own car (rav4) will be insured with different company.

Also dont think your no claims can be carried onto a second car but some companies will allow it. Dont know about the term 2nd car insurance nowadays as you now get the multicar quotes.

[foxy-367]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

I dont think they do insurance for 2nd cars.

They do you just can't have two people insured on the same vehicle

[dxb335d]

With seperate policies, no you cant for sure. Thats illegal.