[Ironring Racing]

Originally Posted by The HACK

It does. In fact, most of the time Ralph just goes balls out for a few laps, sets the track record, get in front of people and takes it easy for the rest of the "race" to make sure the car doesn't go limp and become a moving chicane for the rest of the racers.

As far as I know they've never fully solved the heat related limp issues on that car, but Ralph is so freakin' fast and it's pretty much the only car competing in HS that they don't need to push the entire race.

Exactly my experience, thanks for bringing the real story.

Originally Posted by Doug007

Not true.

From heat exchanger theory, Heat flux (W, BTU/min) = U * A * dT(LM)

U is the overall heat transfer coefficient for the heat exchanger determined by heat exchanger metal properties, fluid properties, velocities, etc., A is heat transfer area, and dT is the temperature difference (log mean)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_mea...ure_difference

Specific heat only enters into the overall heat transfer coefficient. Water is a much better heat carrier due to its high specific heat. This means for a given heat duty, water will have a lower change in temperature than oil. This is good for heat exchange because the temperature difference is what drives the flow of heat.

I agree, water is the better heat exchange medium. However, the effect is not nearly 2x.

If you're trying to cool the oil the most direct method is an oil/air heat exchanger. Cooling the water/glycol will indirectly cool the oil by cooling the engine block but if oil temps are your problem cool the oil first.

Exactly, and expecting substantially lower oil temps via moderately lower water temps with a larger radiator is hard for me to envision, but hey, I'm defenitely up for being proven wrong!

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Just giving you guys a heads up we started an oil cooler group buy. Check out the classifieds section for more info

Mike

[Praemienhai]

Originally Posted by Ironring Racing

One place is the BMW Engine Management .pdf at the top of this 335i forum.

Exactly. On page 47 of the Engine management document you can see that the target of the water temps the ECU tries to achieve under full load is 90-95 degree celsius. If you reach water temps of 115 degree it means that your coolant system (radiator, fan etc) isn't sufficient for your purposes!

System protection (=power reduction) start at 117 Celsius (water) and 148 celsius (oil), see page 49/50.

[Kelvin1000]

Part of the problem with the oil cooler is that there is a lack of airflow as the air ducts are really routed to cool the brakes.

Did anyone ever try out that FMIC that comes with a horizontal oil cooler in the middle of the bumper (where it gets direct access to max airflow)??? It might be a cheaper and better placed alternative to upgrading the oil cooler in the stock location and then having to change the bumper and air the air ducts...

I would love to see some real world testing and comparisons to get this cooling problem figured out.

[riden335i]

Hi Guys, I m new to the fourm and we do experenceing the same situation as you do.

We have entering our car to a Touring Race here in the Shanghai International Circuit, the track we are racing has a 1.175 km straight and 5.4km in total and above 90F during the day. By standard cooling our car could only stay in the power for 2 to 3 lap at max pulling, we did install all possible FMIC and Oil cooler but it seems useless.

However, we came acorss of the hks newer cooler system which is promising to keep 40C cooler from the factory system, I know the system is for E82 now but we will still try it on and it looks like our best bet now from the market.

We will post on how the system goes if it could fit in our E90 later this week. fingers crossed.

I dont know how to post pics but here is the link:

http://www.hks-power.co.jp/for_impor.../e82_cool.html

[techlogik]

I haven't read the entire thread...but I assume you have your brakes all up to par and figured out before you going 20 minutes at a real race track 100+mph right?!?!

Overheating wouldn't be my concern, reliable stopping power is though. It is highly underrated IMO.

[marcel b]

Originally Posted by riden335i

Hi Guys, I m new to the fourm and we do experenceing the same situation as you do.

We have entering our car to a Touring Race here in the Shanghai International Circuit, the track we are racing has a 1.175 km straight and 5.4km in total and above 90F during the day. By standard cooling our car could only stay in the power for 2 to 3 lap at max pulling, we did install all possible FMIC and Oil cooler but it seems useless.

However, we came acorss of the hks newer cooler system which is promising to keep 40C cooler from the factory system, I know the system is for E82 now but we will still try it on and it looks like our best bet now from the market.

We will post on how the system goes if it could fit in our E90 later this week. fingers crossed.

I dont know how to post pics but here is the link:

http://www.hks-power.co.jp/for_impor.../e82_cool.html

Now that is some nice cooling!

An issue when you have a power kit installed though...

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by marcel b

tryng to find that out. For sure you need to have Mtech, the holes look identical to the ones in the Mtech.
I was just informed that in Europe the dealers cannot (will not) provide these parts
Would be good if somebody in the states tries this

Didn't BMW just release the BMW Performance front bumper for e92 ? I remember reading about this. The BMW Performance front bumper for the sedan had two nice air ducts in place of the foglights...it would be stupid for BMW to not release a similar bumper for the supposedly more performance oriented coupe.

[zsapphire7]

Originally Posted by riden335i

Hi Guys, I m new to the fourm and we do experenceing the same situation as you do.

We have entering our car to a Touring Race here in the Shanghai International Circuit, the track we are racing has a 1.175 km straight and 5.4km in total and above 90F during the day. By standard cooling our car could only stay in the power for 2 to 3 lap at max pulling, we did install all possible FMIC and Oil cooler but it seems useless.

However, we came acorss of the hks newer cooler system which is promising to keep 40C cooler from the factory system, I know the system is for E82 now but we will still try it on and it looks like our best bet now from the market.

We will post on how the system goes if it could fit in our E90 later this week. fingers crossed.

I dont know how to post pics but here is the link:

http://www.hks-power.co.jp/for_impor.../e82_cool.html

Yea wow, great find... this is exactly what i want to see on my car! definately let us know how fitment works on the 335i and how they reroute the air to the brakes...

Originally Posted by techlogik

I haven't read the entire thread...but I assume you have your brakes all up to par and figured out before you going 20 minutes at a real race track 100+mph right?!?!

Overheating wouldn't be my concern, reliable stopping power is though. It is highly underrated IMO.

Brakes are my last concern at the moment and work fine all the time. The stoptechs are amazing .

[Kelvin1000]

Originally Posted by Kelvin1000

Two comments:

1) I don't know for sure but I would be willing to bet that a stock 335i would drop the boost lower than 8 PSI after a few laps in this heat.

2) I wonder if keepting the EGTs lower with a richer fuel mix might also help. I noticed that the Dinan and GIAC tunes run much different A/F ratios than the Piggybacks...

We need Mr. 5 to chime in since he is always at the track...

Where are you Mr. 5???

[Funkmob]

That setup is also on the ER racing car , at least i think so.

Originally Posted by riden335i

Hi Guys, I m new to the fourm and we do experenceing the same situation as you do.

We have entering our car to a Touring Race here in the Shanghai International Circuit, the track we are racing has a 1.175 km straight and 5.4km in total and above 90F during the day. By standard cooling our car could only stay in the power for 2 to 3 lap at max pulling, we did install all possible FMIC and Oil cooler but it seems useless.

However, we came acorss of the hks newer cooler system which is promising to keep 40C cooler from the factory system, I know the system is for E82 now but we will still try it on and it looks like our best bet now from the market.

We will post on how the system goes if it could fit in our E90 later this week. fingers crossed.

I dont know how to post pics but here is the link:

http://www.hks-power.co.jp/for_impor.../e82_cool.html

[zsapphire7]

Originally Posted by Funkmob

That setup is also on the ER racing car , at least i think so.

Yes... im trying to get more info from ER on that

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by riden335i

Hi Guys, I m new to the fourm and we do experenceing the same situation as you do.

We have entering our car to a Touring Race here in the Shanghai International Circuit, the track we are racing has a 1.175 km straight and 5.4km in total and above 90F during the day. By standard cooling our car could only stay in the power for 2 to 3 lap at max pulling, we did install all possible FMIC and Oil cooler but it seems useless.

However, we came acorss of the hks newer cooler system which is promising to keep 40C cooler from the factory system, I know the system is for E82 now but we will still try it on and it looks like our best bet now from the market.

We will post on how the system goes if it could fit in our E90 later this week. fingers crossed.

I dont know how to post pics but here is the link:

http://www.hks-power.co.jp/for_impor.../e82_cool.html

Aren't you concerned about the drop in oil pressure from something this large?

[Ironring Racing]

Originally Posted by Praemienhai

Exactly. On page 47 of the Engine management document you can see that the target of the water temps the ECU tries to achieve under full load is 90-95 degree celsius. If you reach water temps of 115 degree it means that your coolant system (radiator, fan etc) isn't sufficient for your purposes!

System protection (=power reduction) start at 117 Celsius (water) and 148 celsius (oil), see page 49/50.

I'm trying not to be rude here, but you've been incorrect on a couple issues now. This is one of them. Please read it again.

[Slidewayz]

Originally Posted by Doug007

Not true.

From heat exchanger theory, Heat flux (W, BTU/min) = U * A * dT(LM)

U is the overall heat transfer coefficient for the heat exchanger determined by heat exchanger metal properties, fluid properties, velocities, etc., A is heat transfer area, and dT is the temperature difference (log mean)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_mea...ure_difference

Specific heat only enters into the overall heat transfer coefficient. Water is a much better heat carrier due to its high specific heat. This means for a given heat duty, water will have a lower change in temperature than oil. This is good for heat exchange because the temperature difference is what drives the flow of heat.

I agree, water is the better heat exchange medium. However, the effect is not nearly 2x.

If you're trying to cool the oil the most direct method is an oil/air heat exchanger. Cooling the water/glycol will indirectly cool the oil by cooling the engine block but if oil temps are your problem cool the oil first.

I dunno 'bout that...oil temp is a measurement only, so lowering it per se is not the goal.

Ultimately, we're trying to remove heat from that ginormous hunk-o-metal under the hood, so the temps inside its cylinders are lower. Anything that transfers more heat per unit time is the best thing.

I totally don't understand why we aren't seeing upgraded radiators hitting the market. Well, realistically priced ones with data to prove efficacy, not $1k+ ones w/sound & fury.

If someone can bring a radiator upgrade to market for ~$500 and have solid data to prove it works, then they'll sell thousands of 'em, IMHO.

[Doug007]

Originally Posted by Slidewayz

I dunno 'bout that...oil temp is a measurement only, so lowering it per se is not the goal.

Ultimately, we're trying to remove heat from that ginormous hunk-o-metal under the hood, so the temps inside its cylinders are lower. Anything that transfers more heat per unit time is the best thing.

I totally don't understand why we aren't seeing upgraded radiators hitting the market. Well, realistically priced ones with data to prove efficacy, not $1k+ ones w/sound & fury.

If someone can bring a radiator upgrade to market for ~$500 and have solid data to prove it works, then they'll sell thousands of 'em, IMHO.

???

The whole goal of this thread is to identify the best methods for lowering oil temperatures. High oil temperatures cause the car to go into limp mode which ruins your track day.

If you lower your water temperatures and still have high oil temperatures you've solved nothing. This is a real possibility since much of the heat added to the oil is likely coming from the turbo bearings themselves, not the engine block. If you don't lower the oil temps you're still sitting off track trying to get your car to cool down so you can go back out.

[Doug007]

Originally Posted by Funkmob

That setup is also on the ER racing car , at least i think so.

Those are some serious oil coolers. I'm hoping ER is working on selling this setup as a kit like their intercooler. Sounds like they'd have a few customers here...

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Doug007

???

The whole goal of this thread is to identify the best methods for lowering oil temperatures. High oil temperatures cause the car to go into limp mode which ruins your track day.

If you lower your water temperatures and still have high oil temperatures you've solved nothing. This is a real possibility since much of the heat added to the oil is likely coming from the turbo bearings themselves, not the engine block. If you don't lower the oil temps you're still sitting off track trying to get your car to cool down so you can go back out.

+1

I think an upgrade oil cooler is a must for open road track use!

Mike

[Slidewayz]

Originally Posted by Doug007

???

The whole goal of this thread is to identify the best methods for lowering oil temperatures. High oil temperatures cause the car to go into limp mode which ruins your track day.

If you lower your water temperatures and still have high oil temperatures you've solved nothing. This is a real possibility since much of the heat added to the oil is likely coming from the turbo bearings themselves, not the engine block. If you don't lower the oil temps you're still sitting off track trying to get your car to cool down so you can go back out.

Fail. What do you think is making the oil get hot to start with? Why do you think there's a temperature interlock for high oil temps? You need to treat the problem (high engine temps), not the symptom (high oil temp).

What would happen if you could bring down the oil temp enough to spoof the interlock, but then grenade your engine because it's running too bloody hot?

[Doug007]

Originally Posted by Slidewayz

Fail. What do you think is making the oil get hot to start with? Why do you think there's a temperature interlock for high oil temps? You need to treat the problem (high engine temps), not the symptom (high oil temp).

What would happen if you could bring down the oil temp enough to spoof the interlock, but then grenade your engine because it's running too bloody hot?

I don't think you understand what i'm getting at.

As discussed in this thread, there is a separate limit for coolant temperatures that will also put the car in limp mode. However, that is not the limit that people are hitting on track days.

I'm also not saying that a better radiator (or radiator fan) wouldn't help. It will help oil temperatures, but maybe not enough to solve the problem.

I still think the most direct way to deal with the problem (which is oil temperatures not coolant temps or block temps) is to add a better oil cooler (e.g., bigger, more air flow)

I'd love to hear some real world experience from some of the time attack teams on how they solved this issue. It looks like Evolution Racewerks installed two huge oil coolers with nice big air ducts. I'd love to hear details on before and after oil temps and the process by which they arrived at that solution.

[stressdoc]

I really want to hear more from folks with 335is and others with the BMW Performance engine kit.

OT, but I noticed my 335 lowers the thermostat when AC is on. Or maybe it's ambient temp >95. Whichever, it runs about 10C cooler, like 220 instead of 238 at normal load.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Doug007

I don't think you understand what i'm getting at.

As discussed in this thread, there is a separate limit for coolant temperatures that will also put the car in limp mode. However, that is not the limit that people are hitting on track days.

I'm also not saying that a better radiator (or radiator fan) wouldn't help. It will help oil temperatures, but maybe not enough to solve the problem.

I still think the most direct way to deal with the problem (which is oil temperatures not coolant temps or block temps) is to add a better oil cooler (e.g., bigger, more air flow)

I'd love to hear some real world experience from some of the time attack teams on how they solved this issue. It looks like Evolution Racewerks installed two huge oil coolers with nice big air ducts. I'd love to hear details on before and after oil temps and the process by which they arrived at that solution.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406402

Might want to look at this thread for some info.

Berk Technology track car running meth and upgraded oil cooler......almost going into limp mode due to high coolant temps.

Go figure!