[Forcefed3]

I think its a pretty nice kit, but I dont have procede anyway. I am going for the coolingmist Pro tank with CMGS and CM10 nozzle, their new software is going to be pretty awesome. I would rather spray at 8psi and not have to fill up so often.

[EastBayE90]

Clap your a traveling man for your work. I'll fly you out to sf and pick you up at the airport. You can drive my car with the kit in a dd setting and wot runs. Shit we can even have a few brews no harsh feelings here in the west coast. Afterwards if your not impressed you can continue to bash it all you want. But until then don't knock it if you haven't tried it. Logs don't always tell the whole story sometimes you just need to experience it first hand.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

I think its a pretty nice kit, but I dont have procede anyway. I am going for the coolingmist Pro tank with CMGS and CM10 nozzle, their new software is going to be pretty awesome. I would rather spray at 8psi and not have to fill up so often.

Actually, you will find yourself filling up more often with a PPS system vs PWM system. This is a because of it's limited effective dynamic range. Nothing to do with the controller but rather the fact that you only have a ~100psi effective pressure range (100-200psi) to play around with. And that translates to a range of only 1x to 1.4x flow. So to get the same performance benefits at higher loads, you will be forced to overspray at lower loads. Not the end of the world. But just not ideal for overall meth consumption.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Actually, you will find yourself filling up more often with a PPS system vs PWM system. This is a because of it's limited effective dynamic range.

What size nozzle is your kit using?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

What size nozzle is your kit using?

Two 1.0mm jets. Effectively a little more flow than two m7 nozzles in higher pressure PPS systems.

[kjrulz]

I'm 99% with Clap. The benefits are minimal and people gladly pony up the extra money because in the scheme of things, it doesn't seem like much for a "plug and play"-ish system. Clap has it set just right at 6psi, meaning it's spraying meth relatively early and it kicks on quickly as well.

If people want to pay for this, by all means and I completely understand the concept but the benefits (besides installation) are far too minimal.

BTW, I'm a procede user and have been for quite a while, but I'm not prepared to take a financial hit just bc i can easily afford it.

[kjrulz]

Originally Posted by kjrulz

I'm 99% with Clap. The benefits are minimal and people gladly pony up the extra money because in the scheme of things, it doesn't seem like much for a "plug and play"-ish system. Clap has it set just right at 6psi, meaning it's spraying meth relatively early and it kicks on quickly as well.

If people want to pay for this, by all means and I completely understand the concept but the benefits (besides installation) are far too minimal.

BTW, I'm a procede user and have been for quite a while, but I'm not prepared to take a financial hit just bc i can easily afford it.

I just want to add this and nothing else.

I completely understand why some people want to pay for your PWM kit.
I completely understand why some people want to pay for an ETS intercooler.
I completely understand why some people want to pay for AR Downpipes.

Personally, I would rather install my own meth set up, CX/Big Tom's intercooler and PLM downpipes.

Personally, at my age I do very well for myself, however, I will not spend an additional $1500 over those three items wastefully. All three perform close to identically to their counterparts (if not better) for the work that I prefer to do.



Good luck to everyone else.

[sappersix]

Originally Posted by kjrulz

I just want to add this and nothing else.

I completely understand why some people want to pay for your PWM kit.
I completely understand why some people want to pay for an ETS intercooler.
I completely understand why some people want to pay for AR Downpipes.

Personally, I would rather install my own meth set up, CX/Big Tom's intercooler and PLM downpipes.

Personally, at my age I do very well for myself, however, I will not spend an additional $1500 over those three items wastefully. All three perform close to identically to their counterparts (if not better) for the work that I prefer to do.

Good luck to everyone else.

I think kjrulz has summed it quite well. There are those who love to tinker, tweak, (cut), and customize... I say good for you and good luck to you. I salute you for spending your time and making something that is unique and all your own. I know you take great pride in making it work and massaging every last bit of performance at the lowest possible cost.

However, there is certainly a market for those who are willing to pay a small premium to just have it work. I don't think those people are any less enthusiastic or passionate, maybe just have different priorities (and less free time).

BTW, let's compare market caps of one segment of companies that charge a premium for a product that just works versus less expensive but arguably more open products. (BTW, I'm not an Apple fan and don't own any Apple products.)

Apple (costs more, but just works) has a market cap of $320B.
MSFT = $218B
Redhat = $8B

Personally, I think the Vishnu team have something here that the market seems to like.

...Now as a consumer, would I like to see the price lower?

[MrHeavyFoot]

Originally Posted by sappersix

I think kjrulz has summed it quite well. There are those who love to tinker, tweak, (cut), and customize... I say good for you and good luck to you. I salute you for spending your time and making something that is unique and all your own. I know you take great pride in making it work and massaging every last bit of performance at the lowest possible cost.

However, there is certainly a market for those who are willing to pay a small premium to just have it work. I don't think those people are any less enthusiastic or passionate, maybe just have different priorities (and less free time).

BTW, let's compare market caps of one segment of companies that charge a premium for a product that just works versus less expensive but arguably more open products. (BTW, I'm not an Apple fan and don't own any Apple products.)

Apple (costs more, but just works) has a market cap of $320B.
MSFT = $218B
Redhat = $8B

Personally, I think the Vishnu team have something here that the market seems to like.

...Now as a consumer, would I like to see the price lower?

Well said!

Both views have been clearly aired. We potential buyers have been warned. Can we cut the bickering and get back to friendly sharing please?

[N54_Fan]

Originally Posted by Clap135

My lines are rated to 2500psi, to cut that shit you pretty much bolt cutters.....every fitting is metal. The oem fuel system will leak before my meth kit leaks lol

This is exactly what I was thinking.

I am thinking about a trunk mount system with an appropriate tank and steel braided tubing under the car instead of nylon fuel line tubing. However, I am interested in this PWM type of system. I already have a CP and have 2 bunges already as I was planning this in the future. They just are not at the same angle and location as Shiv's Kit.

Shiv,

If someone like me wanted this type of trunk mount sytem would I just buy the basic Methanol kit? And is there a reason I could not use the bunges I have already? They are drilled slightly in line before the DV rather than angled as yours are. Does this make much of a difference in your opinion with regards to atomization? Then all I need is the tank and steel braided tubing to reach the hood,... correct? If it doesnt work out with my CP then I could buy yours.

Thanks

[N54_Fan]

Originally Posted by Doug007

I think puddles under meth user's cars have proved rubbing through tubing is a real possibility.

Also a properly run tube from the trunk to the engine bay would be run through a rubber grommet or silicone tube threw the areas in close contact with steel edges that rubbing could occur. Here is Former Boosted's trunk mount setup and DIY from August of 2009.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Who says cruising? You said real world. And real world is not always cruise. It's also about stopping at stoplights and seeing your IATs climb to 150F and then seeing what it takes for it to come back down to ambient. It's about driving in traffic at 25mph for minutes and then moderately accelerating towards a clear lane. And many other scenarios where IATs climb and aren't given much opportunity to come back down. Sure, you can certainly establish a carefully controlled driving environment to defend your stance. But that's not the question.

So whats your point, me spraying more will drop temps faster/greater. There is zero advantage to your kit on a closed loop car.


Hell I think people need to realize the purpose of this kit.
It was created to be able to use a huge nozzle to satisfy big power however not bog a motor down that has a traditional fueling system at low prms....which we dont suffer from.
It was made to create a constant percentage of spray based on fuel in the chamber to make tuning easy....which one again we dont care about since the ecu does all the work.

And lastly it was created because using a big nozzle progressivly simply doesnt work, and using an on/off switch with a big nozzle box cars down....which, wait for it, once we can we dont care about do to our fuel system.

so in conclusion a basic meth kit, will spray earlier, make the same power, and will be about 800 dollars cheaper? Sound about right.

[dzenno]

I have plenty of logs where ecu is very slow to react to AFR changes, takes hundreds of RPMs for AFRs to settle and adjust, sometimes even a few pulls depending on traction as ive noticed that even a tiny bit of traction control induced throttle close leans out AFR and it doesn't come back down again soon enough during the same pull...Never understood why that'd be...In severe examples and higher boost this even triggers a misfire up top

In any case I think a Pwm meth kit that has instant on capability and a constant pressure for lower volumes of meth is a great offering and definitely an improvement over previous setups

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by dzenno

I have plenty of logs where ecu is very slow to react to AFR changes, takes hundreds of RPMs for AFRs to settle and adjust, sometimes even a few pulls depending on traction as ive noticed that even a tiny bit of traction control induced throttle close leans out AFR and it doesn't come back down again soon enough during the same pull...Never understood why that'd be...In severe examples and higher boost this even triggers a misfire up top

In any case I think a Pwm meth kit that has instant on capability and a constant pressure for lower volumes of meth is a great offering and definitely an improvement over previous setups

Your af problems are caused by your tuning solution, the car thinks its running stock boost and a piggyback can only do so much to work around that while providing an acceptable af ratio.

Go on map 0/valet whatever, spray the car. Log af ratios...then don't spray the car, and log af ratios

[ceenik]

thats a great power increase!

[EastBayE90]

Clap I take you ignoring my offer as a no. Too bad you could have had a good time in sf for a weekend. Or maybe you could go to bimmerfest next week in LA and you could check the kit out there?

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by Clap135

email me your address, Ill send you a piece if you make a video of you rubbing it on whatever you want. You might have to pay some hosting fees for file sizes that big though.

Originally Posted by Clap135

Wait did you just say the cobb is better then the procede but you are praising a "top of the line" meth kit with a tune that is below the top of the line tune? That just sounds wierd.

Everyone knows Cobb is the best imo if you want the best tune AND the best meth setup get Cobb and run a standalone aquamist or fjo setup. I think its nuts to run high meth concentration in a container so close to red hot turbos but hey its not my car.

LOL .

Harry

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Interesting read....

[boostd92]

Every one of the windshield washer containers we fill cars with at the dealership (BMW approved) has warnings about how flammable the liquid is.

Don't fool yourself into thinking 50/50 meth/water is any less or more flamable than any winter blend washer fluid.

In fact, we had a good time here at the dealership with BMW's washer fluid concentrate. If you empty out the canister, put the screw on top back on, poke a hole in the side, you can make quite the cannon

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Clap135

So whats your point, me spraying more will drop temps faster/greater. There is zero advantage to your kit on a closed loop car.


Hell I think people need to realize the purpose of this kit.
It was created to be able to use a huge nozzle to satisfy big power however not bog a motor down that has a traditional fueling system at low prms....which we dont suffer from.
It was made to create a constant percentage of spray based on fuel in the chamber to make tuning easy....which one again we dont care about since the ecu does all the work.

And lastly it was created because using a big nozzle progressivly simply doesnt work, and using an on/off switch with a big nozzle box cars down....which, wait for it, once we can we dont care about do to our fuel system.

so in conclusion a basic meth kit, will spray earlier, make the same power, and will be about 800 dollars cheaper? Sound about right.

lol... Try spraying your on/off meth kit at 5psi. And then rely on a closed loop system to adjust AFR as you transition to 15psi and back. If that's good tuning in your book, go for it. And then watch how poorly your car handles the meth flow onset at that low of a boost level. If it's good enough for you, then great. Just don't assume that it should be good enough for everyone.

But then you ask, "why would i spray at such a low boost? That's just stupid". Then I'd say try it, with a PWM system and get back to me. Until then, you are arguing aggressively about something that you have no experience with. Until you do, you should probably just agree to disagree.

[N54_Fan]

Now I am no tuning guru by any means but these 2 sites I found seemed to explain the benefits of PWM vs PPS very well.

I hope it helps. I posted some of these in another thread but thought they would be useful here.

1) http://howertonengineering.com/dynamic-range-explained/

2) The link shows 3 videos. The 2nd and 3rd are best representation of this.

http://s1013.photobucket.com/albums/...nt%3DPPS-S.mp4

Here is a post on another forum that describes the difference pretty well.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/water-me...n-systems.html

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

lol... Try spraying your on/off meth kit at 5psi. And then rely on a closed loop system to adjust AFR as you transition to 15psi and back. If that's good tuning in your book, go for it. And then watch how poorly your car handles the meth flow onset at that low of a boost level. If it's good enough for you, then great. Just don't assume that it should be good enough for everyone.

But then you ask, "why would i spray at such a low boost? That's just stupid". Then I'd say try it, with a PWM system and get back to me. Until then, you are arguing aggressively about something that you have no experience with. Until you do, you should probably just agree to disagree.

Please post logs of this instead of marketing approaches.