[tibra1]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

To just make a blanket statement that flashes are correct is a little naive. And to say they are more advanced is really false. It depends on your goal in performance.

I am neither naive or false..it is FACT..u will have more instances of limp w a piggy than a reflash..if this your goal then go for it

[Joe@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by tibra1

It not a question of "best"..its a question of the correct solution that minimizes issues.there is absolutely no question in my mind that a reflash be it ESS,Cobb, GIAC or whatever is the more advanced solution than a piggy..

and if you were to compare flashes then you clearly go with GIAC b/c they have time and R&D on their side.

Originally Posted by tibra1

I am neither naive or false..it is FACT..u will have more instances of limp w a piggy than a reflash..if this your goal then go for it

I'll just reiterate that my car has never seen ONE LIMP mode ever and it uses a piggy. 2 years might I add.

Be that is at may your conclusion that an ideal solution of any kind has to do with time and r&d?

What about ease of use? Resale? Tunability? Features? Limitations?Cost?

Can you sell GIAC? Can you customize your maps? What do you need to do if you have to go to the dealer for work?

Don't get me wrong I'm not against flash tunes, I'm really not, but your blanket statements will confuse the uneducated.

Lets stick to hard facts not opinions.

[Shellacked135i]

Originally Posted by tibra1

I am neither naive or false..it is FACT..u will have more instances of limp w a piggy than a reflash..if this your goal then go for it

I didnt know Giac had Fanbois like this. Do some more research.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by tibra1

I am neither naive or false..it is FACT..u will have more instances of limp w a piggy than a reflash..if this your goal then go for it

run your flash in 105deg temps, 91oct at 1000ft above sea level and I guarantee you it will fall flat on it's ass in performance and EGTs will be very high. This is unavoidable due to dme logic. This is just an example of better situation for a piggy at this time.

No limp here with a piggy for 2+ years.

[FORCED AIR]

Originally Posted by tibra1

+1
This is not a down fall..this is what makes a reflash superior..it doesnt boost target and cause the ECU to freak everytime there is a change in engine parameters.

Where do you see ECUs freaking? Load targeting is not superior when it comes to performance modding. I don't know about you but I want my car to make maximum power given the modifications and climate....not the same power no matter what.

Originally Posted by tibra1

So make the argument that a piggy is better than a reflash..i would love to hear your take on it

Seriously? ugh...

I just did...go read. I didn't say "is," i said "in this case" and "so far" in the same paragraph.

Originally Posted by E90Vader

Just to note again regarding the COBB and Load targeting debate.
I understand poeple have seen power gaines with FBO, and especially bigger turbos * Ie RB *
Thats still doesn't answer why my COBB log dropped 2.5psi across ALL rpm bands from a simple exhaust straight pipe.. I have not even Added DP's and FMIC yet.
Everyone has noted there are still HP gains, yet from what I've seen I am completely driven by the load targets, and since my load target is A... and my new exhaust opened up engine flow, my PSI numbers have droped substantially in order for me to continue hitting A

How come everybody else is rising above A when it comes to HP


Here was the thread with my bizzare logs..
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535174

This is because of load targeting. The car now makes its load target easier (at less boost). That is why you won't see standard gains like guys on tuners do. Not once the ATR comes out...and you spend the small fortune paying for it...you could custom tune for your mods and doing this realize you expected gains...with in the parameters of the DME's logic of course. In the N54's case we have so far seen that given the way the car is controlled (which limits reflash's capabilities still) AND the ability of Terry and Shiv to design systems that not only communicate with many of the car's systems but also access them via CAN bus...the piggys are just better performing at the overall.

Like I said. That doesn't mean the reflashes aren't very close and don't offer their own pluses. Or that there won't eventually be a flash that can overcome these limitations.

edit: so to add to that vader the stock ecu has some allowances in it...it isn't making the exact same power everywhere no matter the conditions...it is targeting the same load. The ability to..and especially the speed with which, it can meet these targets is affected by mods that reduce restriction. So you will see some gains, especially in spool time and how quickly it makes target changes (will show as more power in parts of band). But like you said...it is more or less targeting "A" and going to make "A" just with less boost needed to get there.

[Joe@TopGearSolutions]

^ This guy knows what he's talking about.

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by mithiral67

What other platforms use a load base method to control a turbocharged setup?

Evo x and gtr of the top of my head . Don't understand why people have such a 1 dimensional view of tuning. Everyone talks about boost but noone talks about timing and a/f . If you adjust for timing and a/f you CAN run higher boost.

All i did was add fmic to my cobb tune and boost dropped to mid 14's and the power increased. Whats wrong with at ? Having used jb i can attest to the fact that the performance was far more variable and the drivabili was not as smooth.

I also don't understand how anyone can compare physically removing a tune from the ecu box to pressing a few buttion on a display. It is obvious that the the cobb is easier to install / uninstall and switch maps. No if's and buts. To me that holds value.

Harry

[ZTUNER]

Originally Posted by tibra1

ATR sounds like a disaster waiting to happen..if it ends up in the novice hands..

Cobb is a reflash so points for that..they def have alot of catch up to do w GIAC>.no question

Even a jb is a disaster in the wrong hands. Just switch to map whatever with no supporting mods and watch the fun. I like the idea that the ATR is for those that know how to tune and don't want to be spoonfed. To me thats a HUGE plus.

Harry

[Litos]

here it is again:

my car was in limp mode on Sunday.

used the Cobb to check codes (fuel pressure sensor). read them and wrote them down.

uninstalled Cobb in 10 minutes.

drove car to dealer and picked up a rental on Monday.

got car back last night after they replaced fuel pressure sensor.

got home and took 20 minutes to flash Cobb again.

ease of install = winner

[Syndicategt]

Originally Posted by Litos

....got home and took 20 minutes to flash Cobb again.

ease of install = winner

And I've (most of us) have become just as quick un-installing/re-installing a piggy. That shouldn't be a factor when considering a tune.

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by Syndicategt

And I've (most of us) have become just as quick un-installing/re-installing a piggy. That shouldn't be a factor when considering a tune.

Its a factor. Depends on whats important to you or not.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by ZTUNER

Even a jb is a disaster in the wrong hands. Just switch to map whatever with no supporting mods and watch the fun. I like the idea that the ATR is for those that know how to tune and don't want to be spoonfed. To me thats a HUGE plus.

Harry

ATR sounds great for real tuners but the JB4 already offers fairly comprehensive custom tuning for shade-tree tuners and normal enthusiasts.

Mike

[michael1284]

Originally Posted by Syndicategt

And I've (most of us) have become just as quick un-installing/re-installing a piggy. That shouldn't be a factor when considering a tune.

If you live in Texas, it's pretty damn hot. 20 minutes in 100 degree weather sucks. 40 minutes (uninstall + install) in 100 degree weather is doubly crappy.

[FORCED AIR]

Originally Posted by Litos

here it is again:

my car was in limp mode on Sunday.

used the Cobb to check codes (fuel pressure sensor). read them and wrote them down.

uninstalled Cobb in 10 minutes.

drove car to dealer and picked up a rental on Monday.

got car back last night after they replaced fuel pressure sensor.

got home and took 20 minutes to flash Cobb again.

ease of install = winner

It takes me less than 15 min swap both my JB4 and my DCI, so not sure where you are going with that....and I have absolutely no chance of bricking my ecu. Any of you ever used portable flash tuners before? This is a far bigger problem then most people know. replacing a BMW ECU is F ing $$$$$$$.

[FORCED AIR]

Originally Posted by michael1284

If you live in Texas, it's pretty damn hot. 20 minutes in 100 degree weather sucks. 40 minutes (uninstall + install) in 100 degree weather is doubly crappy.

It was 100 degrees this weekend....with 100 % humidity...thats right...it rained for a good 1/2 hour

I did my DP install twice...on ramps with hand tools. Took around 2.5-3 hours each time. It really wasn't that bad...just saying

edit...yes i did it twice...i put on the the v-band clamps in front of the waste gate actuator so i could only hit like 7 psi, my bad.

[mithiral67]

Originally Posted by FORCED AIR

It takes me less than 15 min swap both my JB4 and my DCI, so not sure where you are going with that....and I have absolutely no chance of bricking my ecu. Any of you ever used portable flash tuners before? This is a far bigger problem then most people know. replacing a BMW ECU is F ing $$$$$$$.

He saying that the easy of installing and uninstalling the cobb is something he highly values. The question is what are you getting at? Cause say that bricking our ecu with a cobb unit (something that has not occured once per these forums) makes it sound like you are getting at something.

[michael1284]

Originally Posted by FORCED AIR

It was 100 degrees this weekend....with 100 % humidity...thats right...it rained for a good 1/2 hour

I did my DP install twice...on ramps with hand tools. Took around 2.5-3 hours each time. It really wasn't that bad...just saying

edit...yes i did it twice...i put on the the v-band clamps in front of the waste gate actuator so i could only hit like 7 psi, my bad.

Good for you. Just because you don't mind sweating your ass off in the blistering heat doesn't mean the rest of us don't care. The ease of flashing, going inside and chilling for 20 minutes and coming back out w/ my car done, beats the ease of sweating my balls off twice to install my tune.

[Litos]

i plugged my Cobb into the OBDII port and pushed 2 buttons.

i sat in my seat in the somewhat bearable late night Houston breeze and didn't even have to grab a tool, lift the hood, get dirty, break clips, uninstall the stupid air box or any of that shit.

i just sat there and closed my eyes.

and the comment about "ease of install shouldn't be a factor when considering a tune" is just down right asinine.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

You guys are funny. I am not sure what the argument is about. The JB4 is super easy to install and so is the COBB. The COBB is definitely easier and less work to install but that really shouldn't be the determining factor in your purchase. I would understand if one was super hard, etc. but 15min versus 10min isn't really worth fighting about.

I can do a JB4 in 7 minutes LOL

Mike

[E90Vader]

I've ordered JB4! Should have it installed next week.
DP's go on tomorrow. FMIC goes on Satuday. Charge pipe goes on when I isntall JB4.

I just realized that I want to get full potential from my Bolt ons.. I know COBB stage 2 will be great, but I would like to give piggy's a try since I can see better numbers and will not be as restricted when it comes to the hp gains I'll see form aftermarket modifications. I'm happy installing / un installing a piggy, yes its a little more work but from what I've read the true di hard tuning enthusiasts still swear by JB4 and piggy's in general..

You guys can have fun with COBB! I'm going to give JB4 a shot.
I'm getting my car dyno's in July so I'll have logs / HP numbers to throw up as well.
I'm getting excited!

[E90Vader]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

ATR sounds great for real tuners but the JB4 already offers fairly comprehensive custom tuning for shade-tree tuners and normal enthusiasts.

Mike

Whos custom map is this? Can I re-create this to get a little more power over Map with FBO?

[mithiral67]

I tried several of the major tunes before picking. It makes me not doubt my final decision, good feeling.