[Terry335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Then check your math.

shiv

Now that is the thorough and direct Shiv we've all come to know and love.

[lawdude]

You should feel honored Terry. Shiv took you off the "ignore" list.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Heh I've raced around 20 different cars in the 1/4 mile and found it to be very accurate. I'm open to you posting timeslips that show other wise though!

Here's the link I was referring to:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ht=1%2F8th

In there you ran:
60' time of 1.94
1/8th mile of 8.45 @ 84.15 mph
You stated, using "fuzzy logic" that would result in a 1/4 mile time of:
13.10

But as I said, it would realistically be more like:
13.2-13.3 here's why I state that.

I ran at Famoso on 91 Octane with v1.2 PROcede and got:
1.97 60' time (basically identical to yours above)
1/8th mile of 8.43 @ 86.8 mph (again basically the identical 1/8th mile ET but my trap speed was 2.7 mph faster in the 1/8th...PROcede car spun going into 3rd too which lost a bit of time).
I went on to post the following in the 1/4:
1/4 of 13.03 @ 107.6 mph

At the 1/8th mile my PROceded car was already pulling at 2.7 mph faster than your TT tuned car was. Had my car not even gained a single mph more over your car it still would of gotten to the 1/4 mile strip a car length or so ahead (2.7 mph x 4.5 seconds = roughly 4.1 feet per second = 18.5 feet) That would be about a car length or .1-.125 seconds in the 1/4 mile.. But clearly with the additional power of the PROcede over the TT, my PROcede sedan would of widened the gap even more in the last 1/8th mile, probably trapping about 3.0-3.5 mph faster which would of been somewhere in the vacinity of .2-.3 seconds faster 1/4 mile ET.

Had Irwindale been a 1/4 mile track, that day you probably would of gotten an uncorrected 1/4 mile time of roughly:
13.25 not 13.1
Of course, this is all speculation as it's two different tracks anyhow.
Not sure what the elevation is at Irwindale, but I would suspect it's around the same as Famoso (650 feet give or take) and I'd guess weather conditions were probably similiar too. Irwindale I believe has better traction off the line however (so I've been told) and witnessed by our 60' times and 1/8th mile ET's as I was spinning a decent amount at Famoso but still couldn't get out of the hole or too the 1/8th mile mark any quicker even with a more powerful car.

Do you know what stock 335i's get at Irwindale?

Cheers

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Here's the link I was referring to:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...hlight=1%2F8th

In there you ran:
60' time of 1.94
1/8th mile of 8.45 @ 84.15 mph
You stated, using "fuzzy logic" that would result in a 1/4 mile time of:
13.10

But as I said, it would realistically be more like:
13.2-13.3 here's why I state that.

I ran at Famoso on 91 Octane with v1.2 PROcede and got:
1.97 60' time (basically identical to yours above)
1/8th mile of 8.43 @ 86.8 mph (again basically the identical 1/8th mile ET but my trap speed was 2.7 mph faster in the 1/8th...PROcede car spun going into 3rd too which lost a bit of time).
I went on to post the following in the 1/4:
1/4 of 13.03 @ 107.6 mph

At the 1/8th mile my PROceded car was already pulling at 2.7 mph faster than your TT tuned car was. Had my car not even gained a single mph more over your car it still would of gotten to the 1/4 mile strip a car length or so ahead (2.7 mph x 4.5 seconds = roughly 4.1 feet per second = 18.5 feet) That would be about a car length or .1-.125 seconds in the 1/4 mile.. But clearly with the additional power of the PROcede over the TT, my PROcede sedan would of widened the gap even more in the last 1/8th mile, probably trapping about 3.0-3.5 mph faster which would of been somewhere in the vacinity of .2-.3 seconds faster 1/4 mile ET.

Had Irwindale been a 1/4 mile track, that day you probably would of gotten an uncorrected 1/4 mile time of roughly:
13.25 not 13.1

Do you know what stock 335i's get at Irwindale?

So 8.43 * 1.55 (what I think the factor for the 335 is) = 13.06. Pretty close if you ask me!

Stock 335s seem to run 8.70 at Irwindale.

[Big Tuna]

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke II

Are you serious?

[Driver72]

Guys what it all comes down to is this:

Nobody really knows the two products better than Shiv...period. I don't think AA can even argue that..unless they've picked up a PROcede and spent weeks tuning with it.
I don't know truly IF AA gained anything from using the Xede after Shiv, but my guess would be yes, unless AA was researching and developing the Xede at the same time as Shiv was. I think we know that to be not true.
Once Shiv left using the Xede (for whatever reasons) AA picked it up and began tuning with it, and released their version of the Xede months after Shiv spent months developing it for our 335i's.

But at this point who cares?

Did AA have the right to do this? Apparently so otherwise Shiv would of sued. Can anybody argue that Shiv did NOT develop the Xede first for our cars? Not without lying through their teeth. He came out with the product months before anybody else, how could a follow up tuner NOT benefit from that.
Is it a bit shallow to say AA did not benefit from that? IMHO, yes, give credit where credit is due for F--k sake!
Would AA of released an Xede when they did had it NOT been for Shiv's development of the Xede and then severing of ties....there is probably no way they could of, unless the manufacturer would of allowed two competing tuners to use the same product.

So, I don't think it's hard to deduce that AA benefited big time from Shiv's development of the Xede and then the severing of ties with Xede maker.

But WE all benefited from Shiv's hard work and development. It's that simple.
Shiv moving to the PROcede benefited all of us because we got the PROcede. It benefited AA because it allowed them to use the Xede and make tuning adjustments to what Shiv already did with the product, whether for better or worse.

It gave consumers two choices...one a bit more expensive, but to many worth the price since Shiv knows both products better than anybody else.

If the Xede can do everything the PROcede can do, we'll all find that out in good time. But, it's clear, and AA has admitted to this already, IF the PROcede allows a launch control and VANOS control, it is the superior product. AA said themselves, they will believe it if/when they see it.
Shiv says it's happening...but I think he knows what he's doing.

Until then, for those who want to spend $1080 for the Xede (for however long that introductory rate is going to last) or $1300 or so for the PROcede, get what you want.

As for the power of each..the BEST way to know for sure would be to get at LEAST 10 cars to meet at the same dyno on the same day.
5 cars with an AA Xede tuned car
5 cars with a PROcede tuned car.
Either all autos or all manuals with no other performance mods.

We'd clearly see based on the dyno graphs which did better.
But we'd probably see they would be very close (within 5-10 HP and TQ) of each other. And there can be that much variance between 10 STOCK 335i's tested on the same dyno on the same day.
So there would still be disagreements.

Pick the manufacturer you like best, go with their product.
If it's shown that the PROcede is in fact the superior product because of the launch control and such, AA Xede owners will have to decide if they are happy with their product still or want go PROcede at that point.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Terry335

So 8.43 * 1.55 (what I think the factor for the 335 is) = 13.06. Pretty close if you ask me!

Stock 335s seem to run 8.70 at Irwindale.

Where did you get that 1.55 factor?
Sure it's close, but not that close. .2 tenths off is like 2+ car lengths.
Just happens to be how much I beat a TT manual coupe by in those 40-110 mph runs, even with more weight in my car.
Maybe 1.57 would be a better factor to multiply by.

The problem with that "factor" is it does NOT compute speed!
As I showed above, though both of us had 1/8th mile ET's almost identically, my trap speed was faster, which will clearly mean the factor for both cars will NOT compute.
The factor also doesn't take traction into consideration.
One car might of spun more in the 1/8th mile than the other, but both got the same ET.
As what clearly happened when comparing your 1/8th mile time and mine. I spun a bit more.
But once I got traction, I began to pick up more speed.

That "factor" doesn't compute that.

Had we been at the same track and racing together and both got those times, this is what would of happened:
You would of jump a fender on me to the 60' mark because I spun a touch more.
I probably would of spun a bit more at the shift then you too and you would of pulled 1/4 car length on me.
Then I would of gotten traction and started reeling you in, pulled a knat's @ss ahead at the 1/8th mile and started to walk away. And I would of crossed the 1/4 mile stripe about 2 car length ahead.

That "factor" doesn't factor that kind of scenario, which happens ALL the time in 1/4 mile drag races.
I've jumped more powerful cars and actually beat them to the 1/8th stripe only to watch them get traction and fly by me after that. And I've been jumped by less powerful cars only to reel them in and fly by them before the 1/4 mile stripe too.

That's why I say, 1/8th mile tracks are more about launching and traction than speed, and you can't determine which car is faster if one beats the other to the 1/8th mile stripe because it got better traction.

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Guys what it all comes down to is this...

+1. All well said.

[Omar@ActiveAutowerke]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

That's not how I remember it. But you do know best As for the PROcede and Xede doing they same thing. We'll, that's not exactly true. I know because i developed both of them for the 335i application. It does irk me to hear AA imply that they would have done it themselves regardless of what we did and that none of our development benefitted them one bit. True or not, it really doesn't matter. Pick the product which best suits your needs and enjoy your car. What a collossal waste of time.

Shiv

Shiv I beg you to convince this board that a company that has been tuning NA BMW's into Force Induced BMW's for 25 years would not jump on one that came FI from the factory. That is ridiculous.

We just finished making an AEM standalone ECU work as a piggback a E46 M3.

Do you honestly think that making a harness for a piggyback with a few other "tricks" is more difficult. Dont fool yourself for one second. Being humble isnt always a bad thing.

[Mikes12985]

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke

Shiv I beg you to convince this board that a company that has been tuning NA BMW's into Force Induced BMW's for 25 years would not jump on one that came FI from the factory. That is ridiculous.

We just finished making an AEM standalone ECU work as a piggback a E46 M3.

Do you honestly think that making a harness for a piggyback with a few other "tricks" is more difficult. Dont fool yourself for one second. Being humble isnt always a bad thing.

Agreed, AA having to do with performance in BMWs for an estimated 25 years is 100% capable of making there own unique products not used from other shops that are just starting to get into BMW performance. Mike.

[Big Tuna]

This entire thread, as well as the endless jabbing by fanboys on either side reminds me of this:

http://www.dailybeat.net/media/540/P...-Man-Band.html

Shiv camp:



AA camp:



Prospective buyers:

[steveff4]

Amen to SfValley335i and Terry335! I have nearly lost all respect for Shiv based upon his antics in this forum.

I am sure that the BMW crowd will be very lucrative for the aftermarket companies and Shiv saw that fools and their money are soon parted. Shiv has a good product, no doubt, but his marketing shenanigans far outweigh anything he has ever done with a car.

(And I do recall Chip Torque joining the forums to explicitly state that Shiv was losing exclusivity to the XEDE and Shiv never stated otherwise, even though he has been hit-and-running every other competitor-positive thread...)

[WilyB]

I have a couple of questions, or may be more:

1) When the XEDE manufacturer decided they would not renew Shiv's exclusive contrat in the US?

2) Was there a 3 month waiting period and during that time was there a non-disclosure agreement that XEDE could not release info to Shiv's potential competitors?

3) Why was XEDE's manufacturers and/or some USA people trying to access Shiv's XEDE beta tester and data from Shiv's employees?

Again I have a lot of respect for AA's products, many of them are in my son's M3.

I have also a lot of respect for Shiv who obvioulsy brings novel ideas to the tuning world.

But I am starting to wonder. I started my business life, after my MBA, selling car spare parts in Africa. It was fun, but it was tough too. Once in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) the locals told me: "your competitor was there last week and he said so many bad things about you."

I answered truly:

"I was hired to take over his job, but we never ever met, so he does not know me but I must say his files were in perfect order and he must have been a great salesperson."

I got the contract.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by Driver72

The PROcede clearly pulls on the TT at will, even with a weight handicap.

I don't really consider a CL "pulling" per se. A CL can be attributed to shifting or a little tire chirp. I do agree with you the PROcede looks to be faster though.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Active Autowerke

Shiv I beg you to convince this board that a company that has been tuning NA BMW's into Force Induced BMW's for 25 years would not jump on one that came FI from the factory. That is ridiculous.

We just finished making an AEM standalone ECU work as a piggback a E46 M3.

Do you honestly think that making a harness for a piggyback with a few other "tricks" is more difficult. Dont fool yourself for one second. Being humble isnt always a bad thing.

Don't want to speak FOR Shiv, but have got to say:

I highly doubt Shiv doesn't think at some point you guys would have jumped into the tuning of the 335i.
But the fact of the matter is, you didn't as quickly as Shiv did.

And the other fact is, you didn't until Shiv dropped the Xede and you guys picked it up.
The question is...what would you have done had Shiv NOT severed ties with the Xede manufacturer??
You guys clearly jumped at that open opportunity to use the Xede, after Vishnu stopped using it knowing full well Shiv had spent months developing it and tuning with it with a degree of success for the 335i.

I don't think for a moment a company with 25 years experience with BMW's would NOT have done something with the 335i, but you can't rightly deny the benefit you all had from Shiv dropping the Xede, as you guys had NO other ECU tuning device even close to hitting the open market until the Xede became available to you.

What I don't understand is why you guys can't give props to Shiv for doing all he did and opening up the door for you guys to use the Xede? You would have NOT have had the opportunity to do that had Vishnu and Xede manufacturers ties been severed, I think it's that clear!

I'd be curous to know what you guys would have done had that not happened? My guess is still been working on a ECU flash of some sort like GIAC is doing for the 335i.

I'm just a fan of giving credit where credit is due.
Maybe Shiv would humble himself a bit more, if you guys would practice what you preach and do the same with admitting the benefit that had befallen AA with all that Shiv did with the Xede and the resulting fall out with them.

Personally, i'd purchase products from both AA and Vishnu, and both's reputations speak for themselves.
Now if we could just get them both to stop arguing, we'd all stop.
Both are making a lot of money off of customers with BMW's and will continue to. That should make them BOTH happy!

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

I don't really consider a CL "pulling" per se. A CL can be attributed to shifting or a little tire chirp. I do agree with you the PROcede looks to be faster though.

Well, it's not just the CL, it's the fact that in every run we did, I WAS pulling away. On every run that we started evenly, I would begin to pull a bit, then he'd creep up when I shifted, then I would begin to pull a bit more when he shifted, and the gap just kept getting wider. To the tune of 2+ CL's in the 40-110 runs we did several times.
Had the speeds continued the gap would have widened.
That's pulling, and that's what my PROceded sedan did, even with carrying more weight.

[FirstClass]

/me watches it again because I musn't have been paying enough attention the first time because I only remember one roll where you obviously pulled. (and the rapage you had from a dig, obviously)

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

/me watches it again because I musn't have been paying enough attention the first time because I only remember one roll where you obviously pulled. (and the rapage you had from a dig, obviously)

Kujo put up the one run where the TT Coupe jumped the honk a bit and pulled 1/2-3/4 car length on me. That was the run where I spun a bit too much too as we started at like 20 ish. The point of posting that one was to show that even after the coupe jumped me, I pulled up even with it and then began to pull ahead, when we had to shut it down.

We did like 8 runs from 2nd gear, each time I pulled 2+ car lengths on the TT Coupe, but we didn't feel it necessary to post up 8 runs of the PROcede car pulling away each time.

You can watch it on streetfire too.

[Ninjaneer]

Originally Posted by Big Tuna

This entire thread, as well as the endless jabbing by fanboys on either side reminds me of this:

http://www.dailybeat.net/media/540/P...-Man-Band.html

That was great, thanks for posting

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Don't want to speak FOR Shiv, but have got to say:

I highly doubt Shiv doesn't think at some point you guys would have jumped into the tuning of the 335i.
But the fact of the matter is, you didn't as quickly as Shiv did.

And the other fact is, you didn't until Shiv dropped the Xede and you guys picked it up.
The question is...what would you have done had Shiv NOT severed ties with the Xede manufacturer??
You guys clearly jumped at that open opportunity to use the Xede, after Vishnu stopped using it knowing full well Shiv had spent months developing it and tuning with it with a degree of success for the 335i.

I don't think for a moment a company with 25 years experience with BMW's would NOT have done something with the 335i, but you can't rightly deny the benefit you all had from Shiv dropping the Xede, as you guys had NO other ECU tuning device even close to hitting the open market until the Xede became available to you.

What I don't understand is why you guys can't give props to Shiv for doing all he did and opening up the door for you guys to use the Xede? You would have NOT have had the opportunity to do that had Vishnu and Xede manufacturers ties been severed, I think it's that clear!

I'd be curous to know what you guys would have done had that not happened? My guess is still been working on a ECU flash of some sort like GIAC is doing for the 335i.

I'm just a fan of giving credit where credit is due.
Maybe Shiv would humble himself a bit more, if you guys would practice what you preach and do the same with admitting the benefit that had befallen AA with all that Shiv did with the Xede and the resulting fall out with them.

+1. Several months ago, there was so much talk about the XEDE vs. Dinan (if they would actually came out with something for the 335i). So many ppl said how great Dinan is, how they've had so much experience tuning BMWs, and their exclusive relationship with BMW dealers, etc., but yet Dinan has yet to release a performance mod for the 335i. Before I knew what Shiv was doing, I was sending e-mails to Dinan asking them when they would have a performance mod for the 335i; I got tired of waiting for Dinan and it appeared there were no other tuning alternatives. Then, Shiv appeared on the scene (with 3+ years experience with the XEDE and FI engines) with his knowledge, insight and candidness. He was here almost 24/7 discussing and answering questions throughout the entire process and for that, he earned my respect and my business!

Ironically enough, Dinan is only just now releasing a measly intake and exhaust for the E92...but for the 328i, and not the 335i. The fact is that all the "other" tuners whether more experienced with tuning BMWs or not dropped the ball and AFAIK, Shiv was THE ONLY ONE who employed a "carpe diem" attitude right from Sept. 1, 2006 (and even before since he had his plans for the 335i well before) when the BMW 335i first arrived on dealer lots.

Like I said b4, these other guys may have more experience and decent products, but they could still learn a few things from Shiv,and give him some credit for doing most of the initial grunt work on the XEDE. Either way, competition is a good thing for consumers, and nobody has said that having multiple performance tuning options for 335i is a bad thing. However, like Driver72 said, you've got to give credit where credit is due...some ppl lead while others ride on the coat-tails of the leaders.

[lance]

Geeezuz!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alright already!!! Why can't we all just get along?? I feel like I'm watching a presidential debate!

[daveyg]

I got the tubo tuner and it doesnt require elect.tape...Oh wait...it does i broke the clip by accident.LOL