[HyperM3]

Originally Posted by remydlc

no that either tuner can make an especial tune, maybe pushing more boot for that time only, or use race gas, or some other hidden mod.

Ok, fair enough. Point taken.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by remydlc

no that either tuner can make an especial tune, maybe pushing more boot for that time only, or use race gas, or some other hidden mod.

In this case we did what we could to prevent that. I'm sure they will go in to more detail when someone wakes up with the videos...

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by HyperM3

What wasnt fair about it? You saying that you and Terry are better drivers than any customer with the opposite tune? 335's being equal and v2 on one and jb2r on the other sounds fair to me. Maybe it does come down to driver but I wouldnt put anyone on a pedastal for it.

I'm pretty sure I spent no less than 100 hours tuning my own car on the dyno, on the road, on the drag strip, etc,. I'm pretty sure everyone else gets a map that they download off the website or emailed to them. For the sake of lowest common denominator, the customer maps are always on the conservative side. Where I will push things to 9/10ths on my car. Customer (beta or not) cars may only get 7/10ths. But the advantage of pushing things harder on my car is that I can creep up on the limits on my car without subjecting customers to unnecessary risks. This really shouldn't be shocking. And then there is that whole issue with running carefully hidden non-disclosed mods just to win a race against people who really have no motivation to do the same. Hey, it happens

In the end, tuners should race other tuners and get as creative as they want. And customers should race other customers, running standard off-the-shelf product. The latter being the test of product and, of course, driving. The former being a test of all of the above with creatively, deception and balls.... lol

-shiv

[HyperM3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'm pretty sure I spent no less than 100 hours tuning my own car on the dyno, on the road, on the drag strip, etc,. I'm pretty sure everyone else gets a map that they download off the website or emailed to them. For the sake of lowest common denominator, the customer maps are always on the conservative side. Where I will push things to 9/10ths on my car. Customer (beta or not) cars may only get 7/10ths. But the advantage of pushing things harder on my car is that I can creep up on the limits on my car without subjecting customers to unnecessary risks. This really shouldn't be shocking

-shiv

I understand now completely. My mind got a closed-loop error. Its cleared now.

[NYBMW335]

What i dont understand about shiv's response is that he has gotten alot of customers because of Walked U videos. So that being said i think its a fair comparisson between the two.

And plus we all know that Walked U cars is no slouche. By the way i am not running Procede or Jb2. So i am not being bias here.

I am very thankfull for my Turbo tuner.

But i still enjoy knowing the numbers that other tuners are producing.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by NYBMW335

What i dont understand about shiv's response is that he has gotten alot of customers because of Walked U videos. So that being said i think its a fair comparisson between the two.

I'm not sure I understand. Walked U is a customer. He may get maps a couple of weeks earlier than others because I know he will test them out and run them hard. And I know he (and others of course) will give me good feedback. But giving his something bleeding edge doesn't do either of us any good. He's racing for fun, not money. Why should he assume all the risk with none of the reward.

Tuners, on the other hand, have a very different motivation and pushing things a bit harder for the sake of running faster has its merits. Both for long term development and, of course, bragging rights.

Shiv

[Nikolas]

I would love to see the end of the bickering. Good start here. Hats off to both of you for being in this thread.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by A418t81

Betas for bar!

Everyone to the Bar!

[Terry335]

I certainly try a lot of things in my car to see what works and what doesn't, as does any tuner, but I make a point to always disclose whatever tune or mods I have on the car.

For example last night I had our "R" tune on ~96 octane, and had an independent bystander in the car watching the boost gauge. The problem with these things is its never an apples to apples comparison, and even if the mods are close WOT performance is only one of many aspects of a tuner product.

[Driver72]

Hey guys.

Just wanted to say it was great fun last night.

I was the one videotaping and the passenger in Terry's car for the runs.

To cut to the chase, Terry's car and Walked U's car ran pretty much dead even.
They ran like 5-6 times.
One or two runs Walked U won by a CL or so, a couple Terry won, and one run was running side by side.

Interestingly, by the 5-6th run the cars were side by side for awhile, but I think Walked U's car started to pull back boost (with the boost decay set up) and Terry would pull ahead from 120-130 mph when his rev limiter (non sports car kicked in).


So people don't get all "JB2R runs equal with v2.0.2, that's conclusion is hard to say.
There were MANY variables in these runs.

Walked U's car is a manual, Terry's an auto. The autos have shown one many occasions to run faster than the manuals. There was the advantage of the kickdown too. I noticed on a couple of the runs where they'd start in 3rd, when Terry punched it on the third honk, the auto would kickdown to 2nd for a split second for a stronger surge that the manuals don't get.
But if you start high enough in the rev range in 3rd, it won't kick down and it will stay in 3rd.
I think it was in those instances where it was a true 3rd gear to 3rd gear start, is where Walked U would pull the 1-1.5 CL's but the auto would hold strong, and Terry would often start to creep up a bit in 4th gear (around 120 mph).

Walked U's car has Hi-Flow Cats, larger FMIC, larger engine oil cooler, exhaust, 19" BBS wheels with large 275 (IIRC) tires, and was running a dual cone air intake and was on somewhere around 96 Octane.

Terry's car had the JB2R, custom exhaust set up with 2nd cat deletes, resonator delete and cut outs (good for 4 whp according to him). He has a base model car with no sports or premium package for lighter weight. Has ultra light weight 17" wheels on 245 tires (16.5 lbs wheels), has 16 lbs LW battery (saves about 30 lbs) had his air conditioner pollen filter removed (about 10 lbs), and looked to have his trunk cover removed too and I don't know what else.

With me and Terry in his car we weighed combined 360 lbs
Sherwin and his girlfriend weigh a combined 240-245 lbs

So Terry had about 120 lbs more in his car, but his lighter car and mods probably account for 200 lbs if you consider rotational mass is about 1.75 lbs for every 1 lbs lost. (we are going to weigh his car today), so at this point I'd guess Terry had a weight advantage of around 50-70 lbs.

But again, the races were back and forth, and a couple even.
I'd give the slight advantage to Terry's car after the 5th or so boost decay.

I also have to say, I think Sherwin's car might be suffering from the intake.
It's a dual cone set up bu sits right where the old filter box goes....it HAS got to be sucking up a TON of hot air from the engine. The open cone filters sit right on top of the engine with ZERO heat shield protection and ZERO cold air intake ability.
We all said we wouldn't be surprised if he'd be better off with the stock air box and a drop in filter compared to the set up he's got now.


Lastly, I have to say I agree with Shiv and Terry.
It's not exactly the best comparisons comparing a customer car to a tuners own personal car.
Their own personal car has many, many hours and miles of tuning on it and often those are custom tunes, not the tune that is settled on for the customer.

Terry is right too, we need not bicker.
The JB2 has shown to run equal with v1.47 (both in drag strip times and in side by side runs).

His JB2R set up ran equal with Sherwin's v2.0.2 set up.
Sherwin using the more power route, Terry using less power with less weight route.
Both with the same end results.

But we still need to see a PROcede v2 only car go up against a JB2R only car from customers, that would show a lot there.
I'm working on setting that up really soon.

I'll post the other results of the runs in the next post.

[down4it]

I agree that the tuners car is running harder than the customers car but i think the big advantage Terry has over a lot of the other cars is the 17" light weight wheels on drag radials, i want to run someone with the JB2R on some aftermarket 19" wheels and tires just to see the difference...

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by Terry335

I certainly try a lot of things in my car to see what works and what doesn't, as does any tuner, but I make a point to always disclose whatever tune or mods I have on the car.

For example last night I had our "R" tune on ~96 octane, and had an independent bystander in the car watching the boost gauge. The problem with these things is its never an apples to apples comparison, and even if the mods are close WOT performance is only one of many aspects of a tuner product.

Terry, it's cool, you can tell people it was me in your car.

And yes, I watched his boost gauge on one run and it just touched the 15 psi mark for a split second, then hovered around 13-14 psi for most of the time.

[A418t81]

I am a JB2R only guy and will be back in Atl for all of December. Find a V.2.0.2 guy there and we'll try to make it happen.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by down4it

I agree that the tuners car is running harder than the customers car but i think the big advantage Terry has over a lot of the other cars is the 17" light weight wheels on drag radials, i want to run someone with the JB2R on some aftermarket 19" wheels and tires just to see the difference...

Yeah those rims/tires seem to help. I think more from a traction point of view, but who knows. Warren (Hotrod182) lives right up the 101, you guys should meet up?

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Terry, it's cool, you can tell people it was me in your car.

And yes, I watched his boost gauge on one run and it just touched the 15 psi mark for a split second, then hovered around 13-14 psi for most of the time.

Haha didn't want you to get death threats for riding in my car...

[Walked U]

Just wait so I can make the movie....

I finally got editing program so im trying to make this professional.... If I can ever figure it out...

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by Driver72

His JB2R set up ran equal with Sherwin's v2.0.2 set up.
Sherwin using the more power route, Terry using less power with less weight route.
Both with the same end results.

I'm really curious to weigh my car today. My rims, battery, cowl, res delete, etc probably saved 100# total, but I'm not sure sure the non-sport is much lighter than the sport. They say the sedans are a bit heavier too.

[silvrevo]

Nice to hear Driver.......

And its also nice to see the "tooners" playing together again.

In a nice way.

[down4it]

Originally Posted by Terry335

I'm really curious to weigh my car today. My rims, battery, cowl, res delete, etc probably saved 100# total, but I'm not sure sure the non-sport is much lighter than the sport. They say the sedans are a bit heavier too.

I think the sedan weighs about 30-40lbs over the coupe...

[MrOffshore]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I think you guys are being awefully quick to jump on the Terry bandwagon now. I still think it is interesting how the post came as this Happy Meal info was being talked about. Giving that info out to the public helps us as community but may not help some companies. You must admit the timing on this seems interesting. Why not a cease fire immediately when he came back to the forums?

The timing has nothing to do with the Happy Meal comments, at least not at Terry's end...I believe this entire matter as to do with the fact that some of my posts and even an entire thread was deleted or moved because I chose to defend the product I purchased.

I also post on another site and I stated my position there where it was left be read. My statements were not derogatory toward anyone they simply stated what I believe to be facts....and my opinion of the JB2R system I purchased. I was tired of the fighting and felt that having purchased a BMW I might be able to contribute to a few of the BMW forums...I also thought that there might be a certain level of class on the BMW forums that quickly appeared to be missing.

I applaud how many of you are tired of the bickering and fighting and would like to see everyone get along better. I agree, some of the arguments I've read are purely for entertainment purposes, but those posts reflect on the entire forum community...it would be nice if our attitudes could reflect the automobiles we own and drive.

Hopefully my post won't be deleted, I'd like everyone to know that I, at least as an individual, don't like the direction I see things moving...and I've only been here for a short time. I hope we can all make a conscious effort to treat people fairly...and for what it's worth, if any of my comments upset anyone, Shiv in particular, I apologize.

[down4it]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Yeah those rims/tires seem to help. I think more from a traction point of view, but who knows. Warren (Hotrod182) lives right up the 101, you guys should meet up?

I would be down to meet up

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by MrOffshore

The timing has nothing to do with the Happy Meal comments, at least not at Terry's end...I believe this entire matter as to do with the fact that some of my posts and even an entire thread was deleted or moved because I chose to defend the product I purchased.

I also post on another site and I stated my position there where it was left be read. My statements were not derogatory toward anyone they simply stated what I believe to be facts....and my opinion of the JB2R system I purchased. I was tired of the fighting and felt that having purchased a BMW I might be able to contribute to a few of the BMW forums...I also thought that there might be a certain level of class on the BMW forums that quickly appeared to be missing.

I applaud how many of you are tired of the bickering and fighting and would like to see everyone get along better. I agree, some of the arguments I've read are purely for entertainment purposes, but those posts reflect on the entire forum community...it would be nice if our attitudes could reflect the automobiles we own and drive.

Hopefully my post won't be deleted, I'd like everyone to know that I, at least as an individual, don't like the direction I see things moving...and I've only been here for a short time. I hope we can all make a conscious effort to treat people fairly...and for what it's worth, if any of my comments upset anyone, Shiv in particular, I apologize.

+1. It just got to be too much, and IMHO turns off customers to both sides.