[DWR]

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I'm sure many agree with you. I see Mik325tds has shown his appreciation, and this is his thread.
Since there are also many appreciating the potential of the NizPro option (including Mik325tds) I'll move my posts into a new thread.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by RayBan81

All we want to achieve has already been done by BMW and ZF on stock cars. Alpina B3, Alpina B5 and normal 5-series with the sport-option. The cal's are all there and bullet proof ...

Those are gas engines with shift patterns completely inappropriate for our diesels. So, instead of bullet proof, those calibrations might be more like grenades in our vehicles. If your point is that they are a good place to start, I would agree. However, that does bring us right back to custom calibration and the issues we have been grappling with.

Sorry you don't understand how NizPro might complete the picture. If they can help us get OBDII port programming of custom calibrations, that would seem to be a plus. I confess I do not know how it will all work out. I do know we have come at this from many angles and with perseverance. IMO, that's how we have gotten as far as we have.

[RBT-Tuning]

I wasn't talking about Nizpro, i was talking about this "don't touch anything, because it will brake" blabla.

Honestly, I think this whole discussion about micro-slip is academic too. The guys with the older 6HP19 325d cars are running the B3 cal today and if there's any harmful resonance or vibration on our cars someone with reasonable sensibilty in his butt should feel it. And last but not least, there's a very good diesel cal available from the 530d with SAT option.

[Mik325tds]

Originally Posted by DWR

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I'm sure many agree with you. I see Mik325tds has shown his appreciation, and this is his thread.
Since there are also many appreciating the potential of the NizPro option (including Mik325tds) I'll move my posts into a new thread.

The NizPro discussion is welcome and helpful in this thread. I just disliked this discussion going "anal" between Red_Bean_Bun and UberArchetype, hence my appreciation to RayBan's post to please stay on topic.
Please stay clean guys.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by RayBan81

I wasn't talking about Nizpro, i was talking about this "don't touch anything, because it will brake" blabla.

Originally Posted by Mik325tds

The NizPro discussion is welcome and helpful in this thread. I just disliked this discussion going "anal" between Red_Bean_Bun and UberArchetype, hence my appreciation to RayBan's post to please stay on topic.

Sorry gentlemen, I misunderstood.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by RayBan81

there's a very good diesel cal available from the 530d with SAT option.

Mik325tds is that the cal you are using? RayBan81 can you describe what makes that cal better? Thanks.

[Unklejoe]

Originally Posted by DWR

I thought they were very explicit. The very next paragraph reads:

"The next development period will see us concentrating on custom calibration for use with both the standard ZF 6-HP21, and our upgraded transmissions."

Followed by:

"So what does this mean regarding performance gains for N54 owners?"

We have ZF6HP28 transmissions in N57/M57.

Forgive me, as I have an N55 car but have been lurking on this thread since this is one of the few technical transmission threads here. I forgot this was the diesel section.

That being said, I assume the 6HP21 and 6HP26 have very similar TCUs (if not exactly the same). If they have managed to come up with a solution for the 6HP21, then it's likely that it can be ported to the 6HP26, or at least help the people in this thread. The program code is probably a little different (which is probably why you guys can't flash the gasoline Alpina B3 image onto your TCU), which might also mean that the locations of the tables are different, but it's a step in the right direction at least. I bet the signature checking mechanisms are similar between them.

I've emailed them just to confirm and gather some more information, and after some technical dialog with respect to how the stock TCU does things, it seems like they are the real deal. They were able to provide some actual detail, something which many of the other fake TCU flash companies were never able to do. Hopefully something comes of it for you diesel guys.

Originally Posted by UberArchetype

As nizpro implies, you have to understand that the manufacturer has already done the work necessary to maximize the trans performance and longevity in stock form, for the intended application. As I always tell people looking for more performance: "There is no substitute for hardware." Hard part upgrades (input shaft, clutches, torque converters, etc) are the only things that are going to properly support big power increases - along with the appropriate software tweaks, of course.

At the end of the day, it's interesting to study what makes them tick, but squeezing more torque through a trans is akin to forcing a bolt/nut. The manufacturer knows the tensile strength of the material and has already factored that into his software. You can probably push it a little harder before it breaks - but not much.

I think it really depends on what the people are looking for by "more performance".

Are we talking faster shift times? More holding capacity? Or maybe just a better overall driving experience?

Me personally, I just want a few things tweaked, such a shift points and torque converter lockup behavior.

It's unlikely that we will able to reduce shift times by 50%, handle 100% more static torque, and decrease shifting torque reduction, all at the same time through software alone (without breaking anything), but I fully believe that we can come up with a combination that results in an overall better driving experience as well as increased holding capacity. The transmission is not tuned on the bleeding edge of self destruction in its stock form. This is confirmed by the fact that there are very few incidents of hard part failures with the transmissions on these cars. If it was tuned that close to the maximum limit of capacity, I feel we would see many more cases of them breaking through normal beating.

The manufacturer optimizes the transmission based on many variables, some of which we don't care about as much.

For example, many of us don't care as much about comfort when compared to the average BMW customer. BMW uses fairly large amounts of "slip" in "D" mode to reduce the feel of shift shock, but this increases wear on the clutches. I personally don't care about feeling shift shock and would much rather have my clutches last longer.

While I agree that there will be an eventual limit at which time hard part upgrades will be required, I think that you may be underestimating the amount headroom that there is. Of course, this is all speculation at this point.

NOTE: Nizpro makes money by selling upgraded hard parts, so it's not really in their best interest to spend a lot of time expirimenting with the stock transmission to maximize its holding capacity. Also, I'm under the impression that the cars they are used to dealing with are much more abusive to transmissions than ours will be.

Originally Posted by DWR

I agree with the general concept, and safety margins are smaller than they used to be. Still, those margins are quite generous. The proof is in the pudding, as witnessed right here, in this forum. However, we are talking about something different than torque.

The shock loading Simon refers to is know as impulse force in physics. It is the force required the change momentum. So, both mass and the changing rate of speed are at work. Since the mass of rotating parts is essentially a constant, increased impulse is directly proportional to decreased shift time. While our transmission maybe able to withstand a 50% increase in torque, it cannot withstand a 50% decrease in shift speed. That would double the impulse and require a doubling of any margin of safety.

I used the above example because the air pressure is analogous to the torque on the tranmission and the decelerating fixture represents the mass of rotating parts. In that example, the impluse force greatly exceeded the static force. Similarly, the reason torque is reduced during shifting is to allow for higher impulse associated with a faster shift. For engines that have slow transient response, this strategy may ultimately reduce acceleration.

Exactly. I agree 100% about the safety margins being smaller than they used to be. As design processes become more and more optimized, they can reduce costs further by not overbuilding parts as much. The days of the TH400 are long gone.

As for tuning our transmissions, there is a trade off to be made. I have no doubt we can achieve faster shifts. However, we may need to increase the torque reduction during shifts to prevent the transmission from snapping from the shock of the speed difference of the engine rotating assembly. However, after a certain point, this won’t even help, as the minimum amount of shock for a given shift speed will eventually be dictated by the rotating mass and speed, even if the engine torque is reduced to 0. The only thing left to do at that point would be to reduce the weight of the rotating assembly.

In the end, decreasing shift times might ultimately end up resulting in worse acceleration due to the required increase in torque reduction, but it would “feel” better, and would likely result in longer clutch life.

Conversely, if your goal is absolute maximum acceleration, we may be able to decrease the torque reduction during shifts if we increase the amount of "slip" during shifts. This will likely result in a better quarter mile time at the expense of your clutches.

I would personally rather have a transmission that shifts faster, even if it requires more torque reduction during shifts. In fact, I wouldn’t mind even more torque reduction than there currently is. I hate the feel of a transmission with a shift kit that lurches forward during shifts.

I believe this is why DCTs feel smoother during shifts even though they are actually shifting faster. The acceleration is relatively constant during shifts with a DCT where as there’s usually a spike in acceleration with a built automatic. My guess is that cars with a DCT temporarily cut the ignition or something rather than close the throttle, as this provides better transient response. I know that N54 cars pull ignition timing during shifts. I don’t know what the diesel equivalent would be.

Also, I wonder if it would help to leave the converter unlocked during WOT like many other transmissions do. This would probably help to reduce shock during shifts. Then again, I’m not sure since the converter multiplies torque proportionally with respect to the speed difference of the turbine and pump.

I know I basically just repeated a lot of what you said…

[Unklejoe]

Anyway, back on topic.

Would it help you guys if I obtained a dump of my Alpina flashed 335i (N55, 6HP21)?

If so, I can probably do it tonight.

[Nadir Point]

Originally Posted by RayBan81

I wasn't talking about Nizpro, i was talking about this "don't touch anything, because it will brake" blabla

Nah, don't worry - your 4-banger isn't going to break anything.

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Unklejoe

I know I basically just repeated a lot of what you said…

Yes, but sometimes saying the same thing in a different way helps some folks understanding it better. And I'm all for that.

[Mik325tds]

Originally Posted by DWR

Mik325tds is that the cal you are using? RayBan81 can you describe what makes that cal better? Thanks.

No, that is not the cal I’m currently using. The 530d is using the M57 engine while the cal I’m using is for the European E90 330d with the N57D30O0 ECE engine (A7610591.0da).
RayBan81: What does SAT option stand for? I think we covered before that the 530d cal won’t work in the 335d because it’s using an E-shifter, correct?

[DWR]

Originally Posted by Mik325tds

I think we covered before that the 530d cal won’t work in the 335d because it’s using an E-shifter, correct?

That's how remember it also - but I can't keep all the cals straight as well as you can.

[RBT-Tuning]

Mik325tds Yeah, you're right. Won't work because of the E-parking lock in the E6x series.

I posted that already in the new 6HP thread from DWR, but it seems to fit here too:

Just to show, what BMW has already done with the 6HP26 on diesel cars:

530d with "Sport Automatic" option (SAT) retrofit:

I'd say thats substantially faster then in in the E9x application and obviously is possible inside of OEM limits.

Combine those maps with TC lockup immediatly after lift-off and we have the "perfect" cal I'd say. And personally, I don't want to win the quarter mile (I wouldn't drive a Diesel If I was after that)...I just want a proper daily driver setup.

Don't get me wrong: Every discussion contributes and puts more knowledge in here, but at some point things have to be proven in the real world. Ask an engineer from BMW an he will tell you that everything is at the limit. Ask an experienced ECU tuner an he will tell you, that most of the stock cals (ECU and TCU) are just poorly and sloppy done. The truth is somewhere in between.

p.s. @Uberman: A 325d in the E-series is a 3-litre 6 ;-)

[DWR]

Originally Posted by dave205t

Indeed this is 'just a' side project for me, but i'm committed. Have not had too many leftover cycles from the day job last week(s), however i have some achievement to report: i successfully erased calibration and wrote back a calibration to Roberts TCU from the binfile i read earlier (extended TCU_flash for write, no need for Winfkp).

Have not tried to disassemble the TCU just yet (after an initial attempt and seeing some pics of the very sensitive electronics inside), this initial writing to calibration and program sections (not finished yet) should be safe enough to try without BDM access.

Best regards, Dave

Dave, any staus update?

[dave205t]

Originally Posted by DWR

Dave, any staus update?

Hi Guys,

I was under the impression you found a working solution in the Nizpro; As commented before its always faster to just go with something that works (now) rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.

Has anything changed on that end ? I put the project on hold a bit, still a lot of load from the day-job on my side.

Best regards, Dave

[RBT-Tuning]

@dave205t I'd be more then happy to continue with our own approach! Nizpro may be coming up with something, but from what I've read there's still a long way for them until they can release the product.

[dave205t]

Originally Posted by RayBan81

@dave205t I'd be more then happy to continue with our own approach! Nizpro may be coming up with something, but from what I've read there's still a long way for them until they can release the product.

I must have misunderstood or misread the comments above; It seemed they announced to have a fully remap (custom) solution now or was it another unicorn sighting/marketing gimmick ?

Best regards, Dave

[DWR]

Originally Posted by dave205t

Hi Guys,

I was under the impression you found a working solution in the Nizpro; As commented before its always faster to just go with something that works (now) rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.

Has anything changed on that end ? I put the project on hold a bit, still a lot of load from the day-job on my side.

Best regards, Dave

Nizpro contracted help to get access to the TCU, but is determining much of the functionality by trial and error. Their primary focus is on the gas powered 335i. The assumption is cracking the 335d will come quickly afterwards. Furthermore, they have another project that takes a higher priority, although they are making regular progress on the TCU remapping. Based on my limited communications with Simon, I'd say nobody knows how long we will have to wait.

Frankly, if we can also get access to the TCU without Nizpro I believe we can speed progress for all concerned. Dave, everyone here appreciates all you have done and you owe us nothing. However, if you are still interested in the project, there are many here who would appreciate your help.
Thanks.

[_TB_]

I'd still highly appreciate a "private" solution. The risk of having a commercial partner is that once the pulse has been solved - they take the knowledge and use it to sell their solution. Then we are tied to using their tools. I'd much more prefer to have a solution where we can tinker ourselves.

[veee8]

Originally Posted by _TB_

I'd still highly appreciate a "private" solution. The risk of having a commercial partner is that once the pulse has been solved - they take the knowledge and use it to sell their solution. Then we are tied to using their tools. I'd much more prefer to have a solution where we can tinker ourselves.

Agreed, I'm on the 335i side, but would totally appreciate a DIY solution instead of being tied to the aftermarket, which I'm sure they will charge out the nose for.

[DWR]

I received an email from Simon at Nizpro. I'm sharing it here because this thread effectively died after I created the Nizpro reprogramming thread - that was not my intent. Simon has much work ahead for the gas engines. The diesel market is small. We should continue the work in this thread, IMO.

Here's Simons message:

There is no doubt that our announcement a month or so ago was a bit early, not so much on a technical side but on a release product side. I dont think I ever mention we were ready to ship product or even mention a possible date, Unfortunely many took it that we were ready to ship. I am certainly not going to release or at least do my utmost not to release product that wont perform as we suggest it will. Many think the software will be the magic bullet and all of a sudden the stock transmission will be able to handle 8 million hp. I understand the Diesel guys are not wanting it for this purpose.

So using our car for calibration over the last month, we discovered some issues that were not behaving as we thought they should, it was decided to remove our transmission and have a look though it. It was quickly discovered that it was substantially worn out and no software changes were going to fix it. This is going to be a common issue and we will be faced with guys buying product looking for the magic fix all to be disappointed and them bad mouthing us all because they have mechanically worn transmissions.

So from our point of view we need to document the improvements and limitation very accurately so no one gets their noises out of joint with ridiculous expectations. Remembering we are also developing internal transmission upgrades that will need to work with standard calibration, Alpina cals and our own custom cals, along with standard transmission recals for varies engine types and power levels.

We have achieved a reasonable amount in the back ground however not wanting to repeat the mistake of making people think we are days away from shipping product dont wont to release to many details.

We were actually caught testing a few weeks ago while trying to keep a low profile, this has now been released although we did ask them to keep it under wraps for a couple of weeks.

I understand your communities eagerness, please dont let us stand in their way, if they want and need to continue doing their own thing please let them. What we are trying to achieve in terms of calibration takes OEM’s years to develop before being released, we are trying to improve their calibration in various formats in 3 months, Im sure you understand this extremely well, others certainly dont.

[Mik325tds]

Thanks for keeping this thread alive, guys. Unfortunately, work has me really busy these days and I don't get to try out the alternative method of spoofing the CAN signals on the fly.
It seems like Dave has been caught up in work as well but I sure hope he's going to pick up where he left off once he has some more time.
One thing is for certain, we will keep on pushing forward here. We just can't force the speed.
On the other had, Simon is definitely right by saying that this won't necessarily be the "magic fix" everyone is hoping for. Especially, with some people looking for different things to improve (shift speed vs. shift comfort, shift points, clutch engagement, etc.). The best we can hope for is getting the alpina cal to run on our trannies and maybe fix the issue with shift points under full throttle.