[atlharry]

Originally Posted by M335i Oreo Package

Ok. Suppose BMW is being extremely conservative with there timing at the stock boost levels, would u be safe at higher boost levels.

And as far as raising boost in the heat and lowering it on the cold I think(not an expert) that they want to keep the rated hp in any condition so on hot air is less dense therefore more boost is required and when its cold more air bcuz it is more dense requires less boost. That would be my explanation but correct me if I'm wrong...

I doubt your first premise is applicable because the goal since the beginning of time has been to advance as much as possible in order to extract the most efficiency out of an engine.

I wonder if they even have timing mapped out to correlate to the higher load levels that a higher boost car would show. Maybe someone can answer that for us. Remember, that with piggies, they are sending false load readings to the DME.

You are correct with the second part of your message. Load targets. less dense air = higher boost.

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by M335i Oreo Package

Ok. Suppose BMW is being extremely conservative with there timing at the stock boost levels, would u be safe at higher boost levels.

The very first log in this thread shows that BMW isn't being extremely conservative with their time tables.

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

The very first log in this thread shows that BMW isn't being extremely conservative with their time tables.

oh, yeah, forgot about that (it WAS 28720 pages ago). THIS.

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by atlharry

oh, yeah, forgot about that (it WAS 28720 pages ago). THIS.

It really is understandable though with the amount of info in this thread to sift through to remember what the very first post was actually about.

[STONEY_M5]

Originally Posted by atlharry

I doubt your first premise is applicable because the goal since the beginning of time has been to advance as much as possible in order to extract the most efficiency out of an engine.

I wonder if they even have timing mapped out to correlate to the higher load levels that a higher boost car would show. Maybe someone can answer that for us. Remember, that with piggies, they are sending false load readings to the DME.

You are correct with the second part of your message. Load targets. less dense air = higher boost.

but isn't the efficiency of the engine still just a theory? I dnt think anyone has figured whT the ve of this motor is(unless I missed that thread). And if you take the second part of my theory into consideration wouldn't it make sense that since they reached there load tArget that they dnt have to Advance timing therefore leaving room to spare for us boost junkies... Dnt flame me just trying to get things together (trying to be an ultimate BMW tuner b4 I die lol)

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

Granted, this is a very popular thread...

but i would say that its an overstatement to say that its the best thread on the forum.

please forgive me for making a slightly constructive observation...

the title of this thread is misleading -- or at least in some ways a good way to refute someones motives and the technology that they are using -- basically what all car people know as "bait and switch" ..

the statement that BMW's Motronic unit has trouble sustaining a decent timing curve STOCK is tantamount to alluding that earth has a hard time staying in a constant rotation around the sun. there is more than meets the eye.

most of this forum is comprised of people of reasonable intellect and some are schooled in various areas of expertise, but without proper direction, valid points can be blown well out of proportion.

just as an example, i posted a link to a reference to knock sensor technology.. it was lenghtly, but it did explain that the harmonics of the engine while running well are different than when the engine is knocking.

knock can be detected on several levels -- just as earthquakes can be sensed by magnitude. using a set of "electronic ears" to detect knock is so 1980ish and sensors and technology have move far beyond that, to the extent of its ability to detect based on several variables (iat,cts,road speed, load,ambient temp,etc) not if, but when the engine could "see" a knock condition.

assuming the DME will pull timing when its see the knock isnt adaptive, but reactive. yes, there are timing drops -- when the DME sees conditions based on sensor input (not just knock) it will pull timing.

the main reason that these turbo engine stay together is knock is damaging, being conservative is THE only way to keep these motors together. now for any tune that disregards the intended operation of the DME to pull timimg not just based off of a KNOCK signal is going to have trouble...

if you had a car that was slightly overheating (maybe bumper to bumper traffic) and the car was traveling on the 6% incline, the outside temp is 98degress wouldnt you pull timing if your were the engine management system -- even before the car knocked ?? think about it.

not trying to post a put down, but without a full grasp of WHAT the whole car is doing -- making a solid point about one tune or the other isnt being fair -- sorta

i would say -- let time tell, and the performance of the product will speak for itself.

i know ill have to deal with the "prove it" situation now -- before any one asks -- get in touch with BMW and Siemens for details.

great post and I think you are on to something. I've often suspected this. I haven't been involved in tuning anything since my 94 RX7 which relied on maps (not the ECU) when WOT and yes, all those tuning tenets that these guys are preaching now and more (split, etc.) were followed and yes, there was zero knock in those cells, BUT, this ECU seems to be a whole nother animal. I confess to knowing nothing about it, but I do know that there is a world of difference between the two.

[STONEY_M5]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

The very first log in this thread shows that BMW isn't being extremely conservative with their time tables.

if the ve is higher than what we think then wouldn't that mean that we are assuming they arent being conservative ???
or am I way off here???

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by M335i Oreo Package

but isn't the efficiency of the engine still just a theory? I dnt think anyone has figured whT the ve of this motor is(unless I missed that thread). And if you take the second part of my theory into consideration wouldn't it make sense that since they reached there load tArget that they dnt have to Advance timing therefore leaving room to spare for us boost junkies... Dnt flame me just trying to get things together (trying to be an ultimate BMW tuner b4 I die lol)

I think you are misunderstanding "load". Think of load as air. If you have a set amount of air, you have a fueling target and a timing target (and I'm sure other targets as well). To get maximum efficiency out of that "load", you advance as far as possible.

Load is not a measure of power.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by usc335

To those who keep asking for proof that knock is bad, why aren't you asking for proof that knock isn't bad? On every other platform, knock is bad, so I think the people who are claiming that the N54 ECU is fast enough to prevent long-term damage bear the burden of proof.

To anyone familiar with the scientific method, saying "well, I have thousands of customers" is not proof -- it is just deflecting the question because they have no scientific proof. It's been said before, but that's like saying that because there are millions of smokers that haven't died yet that smoking is safe. Is that really the best they can do? I don't know why people insist that Engine Tuning 101 doesn't apply to the N54.

but millions of smokers HAVE died. It was really tough not to be insulting because this is about the dumbest example I have ever seen.

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

but millions of smokers HAVE died. It was really tough not to be insulting because this is about the dumbest example I have ever seen.

Millions of non-smokers have died as well.

Sorry, had to do it.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by atlharry

Millions of non-smokers have died as well.

Sorry, had to do it.

[AltecBX]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Yes its called physics and backed by common sense. If cylinder pressures wouldn't increase neither would power.....think logically

Then why the new v5 maps feel more powerful at same boost compare to the v4 maps?

How can you make more power applying the same boost(psi)?

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

In what sense do you want to talk here?

Long term effects? or short term?

These knock events are adding up, they don't just simply disappear after they happen.

If you want to talk short term, then yes, nothing noticeable is happening right now for them.

somewhere down the line? their engine will fail sooner than that of someone running either the stock tune or a tune that is able to control these knock events (or significantly reduce them).

is that clear enough for you?

what are you calling short term? I've had my car for 2.5 years, running some form of JB since break-in.

I also posted pics of engine damage from a tuned car that was NOT running a JB product with a tune that "controls" timing.

Where are all of these JB cars with engines that are "failing sooner".

[STONEY_M5]

Originally Posted by atlharry

I think you are misunderstanding "load". Think of load as air. If you have a set amount of air, you have a fueling target and a timing target (and I'm sure other targets as well). To get maximum efficiency out of that "load", you advance as far as possible.

Load is not a measure of power.

ok. I think I got it... So now couldn't they lower timing and raise boost and Fuel and still be efficient. As long as they are getting what they want out of the motor is 300/300. And still leave room just in case we up the boost with a boost gauge(jbplus)

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

what are you calling short term? I've had my car for 2.5 years, running some form of JB since break-in.

I also posted pics of engine damage from a tuned car that was NOT running a JB product with a tune that "controls" timing.

Where are all of these JB cars with engines that are "failing sooner".

I may have missed this. How many laps around the 'ring have you done?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Mentioned this 10 times already and everyone ignores it. If the dme had the ability to drop timing pre knock based on iats or temps or whatever.....why doesn't it drop timing when u run high octave gas. The only parameter you are changing by running high ocean is the fuels resistance to.detonate.....everything else stays the same as before.

By your definition then any tuning where the ignition advance increases when you add race fuel means tuning that is knocking. So the OEM tuning knocks, all the piggybacks knock, we'll soon see your Cobb tuning knocks as well. /thread.

Mike

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by AltecBX

Then why the new v5 maps feel more powerful at same boost compare to the v4 maps?

How can you make more power applying the same boost(psi)?

Feelings are for your GF. What you are experiencing is probably better response and at best more ignition in certain areas.

Only way to increase power by applying same boost is denser air, higher octane, or more ignition. (Power = Air fuel spark, could be any of those).

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

what are you calling short term? I've had my car for 2.5 years, running some form of JB since break-in.

I also posted pics of engine damage from a tuned car that was NOT running a JB product with a tune that "controls" timing.

Where are all of these JB cars with engines that are "failing sooner".

I guess when it comes to this, it's personal preference. I plan to never sell my 135i, why? it's just what I want to do.

Ideally I want my engine to last as long as it possibly can. so years down the road, when i want to take it for a drive again, i'll be able to.

If these aren't your plans, and you plan to sell it pretty soon, then according to what's happened so far in the past years, you should be okay.

These cars do not have a lot of mileage on them as they haven't been out for more than 4 years. I think someone on here has 120k miles untuned, for the most mileage.

now i know all of this is speculation, but it is educated speculation, based on other platforms that have seen knock in the past.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by atlharry

Millions of non-smokers have died as well.

Sorry, had to do it.

OMG you are so right! Worst example ever.

[fisherbln]

Originally Posted by M335i Oreo Package

ok. I think I got it... So now couldn't they lower timing and raise boost and Fuel and still be efficient. As long as they are getting what they want out of the motor is 300/300. And still leave room just in case we up the boost with a boost gauge(jbplus)

They could lower timing and increase boost and fuel and they'd be less efficient, but could create the same amount of power (remember, more fuel, same energy = less efficient). You want timing as close to perfect as possible to utilize as much of the energy from the explosion as possible.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

I guess when it comes to this, it's personal preference. I plan to never sell my 135i, why? it's just what I want to do.

Ideally I want my engine to last as long as it possibly can. so years down the road, when i want to take it for a drive again, i'll be able to.

If these aren't your plans, and you plan to sell it pretty soon, then according to what's happened so far in the past years, you should be okay.

These cars do not have a lot of mileage on them as they haven't been out for more than 4 years. I think someone on here has 120k miles untuned, for the most mileage.

now i know all of this is speculation, but it is educated speculation, based on other platforms that have seen knock in the past.

I'm keeping my car as well, which is why I do my own oil changes between the "factory" ones. The ONLY way to preserve as much life as possible is to leave the car STOCK. Abstinence....

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

I'm keeping my car as well, which is why I do my own oil changes between the "factory" ones. The ONLY way to preserve as much life as possible is to leave the car STOCK. Abstinence....

This is very true, I should have stated that I want my "tuned" car to last as long as it possibly can.

And a car that knocks a lot more than another car has less of a chance as living as long! (minus all the other variables)