[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

You asked and you received, you can make all the excuses you want as well as the drivers of those cars themselves and the tuner behind them. Ask them what tunes they run now.

Ive repeated myself so many times in this thread it AMAZES me that people still point fingers at me.

I said MY POST ARE NOT ABOUT WHAT TUNE YOU RUN..... ITS ABOUT TUNING PRACTICES IN GENERAL.

some highlights from the threads you posted:

1.Originally Posted by Sevak

Here is my short story. I have been running Stage3 with meth 17psi to
14psi at redline with 18 ohm mod for some time now without problems
and the car was running strong. I wanted some more power so I
installed 12 ohms to increase boost up a little a month ago and it has
been around 18-18,5psi but holding that until 6500rpm.

I have a Coolingmist meth kit with M8 nozzle and 95% meth with a flow
safety system but when logging I turn the safety off. Also I recently
learned I had the safety setup too weak with only 150ml/min safety
when it should be four times that for these higher boost levels I run
now. But I dont thinkt this is the problem.
Also I have nerver log timing.

BMS has been kind to me whit support and everything. Im the one wanted the car faster.
I think if you dont want to break anything run stage3 max boost 16 psi and 13,5 at redline.
If you run meth you must have a failsafe and max boost 17 psi and 14.5 at redline.

Also BMW limits power much lower for a reason so who knows
how long it will last even if everything is done perfectly.

Originally Posted by scottp999

Who told you that? In this failure, the person was running the most aggressive board (12 ohm), when the standard is 24 ohm and there is an 18 ohm that many use for meth and/or race gas. This person was pushing the boost limits at the same time they were minimizing the fail safes (meth, boost taper, no race gas at high levels of boost >18PSI).

The failure happened on one of the most agressive setups anyone could run for stock turbos.

If you are running a 24 or 18 ohm board, with 93 octane plus a decent meth ratio, limiting boost to between 16 and 17, while running a decent boost taper at high rpms, and running a working meth failsafe, you should be good to go.

I wont get into the timing control debate, but the upside to control is positive in my eyes.

Originally Posted by techlogik

When did it become a common attitude that running any kind of meth was somehow a safe endeavor?

You are playing with fire particularly at those boost levels on a stock setup.

As Shiv stated, if you are not on top of the timing/boost at the point your have this stuff flowing....be prepared for blown parts on your engine. This is basic tuning and "Danger Will Robison" stuff.

Good thing most tuners have this under control and factor this into their solutions when offering meth support.

I would guess 99.9% of people running tunes on here would never be in the situation this thread is about. Running 15-16psi and tapering it down on high octane pump will probably result is little issues if any ever.

I think we are not getting much in the way of technical details since very little was given to begin with on this situation.

Subscribed.

Originally Posted by Clap135

I find it funny how a Meth kit fails and people blame the tune. How bout we figure out why the kit failed and what kit it was. Enrita had a cm kit as well?

I just threw this in for grins

and the band plays on, etc. etc.

You can't jump out of an airplane and expect that an umbrella is going to keep you from hitting the ground hard.





2. upgraded turbos=uncharted territory

Originally Posted by enrita

Update: original turbos are out. both in good conditions, no play and wastegates didnt show much of wear/rattling causing issues. They have run 40.000 miles.
Next is to fit custom oil/water lines to the turbos and install them.
I have ordered as well a set of OKADA plasma coils to provide better spark for increased boost and power. The M3 turbocharges folks at e46fanatics go nuts about this coils so we will see how they perform.

Originally Posted by enrita

everything is on but we have a slight issue with the compressor pipe not aligning to the Intercooler....

Originally Posted by enrita

GIAC stage 2 is not working right with the turbos. overshooting like hell. JB3 going in .

Originally Posted by enrita

Correct, i am hitting the torque targets so quickly that the flash is backing on boost constantly. Kinda positive :-) means the turbos are delivering

Originally Posted by enrita

damn 19-20 psi sustained and 17.5 at redline :lol charge pipe blew off completely.
Well the runs went well but we had crappy weather with rain and not many videos were done. lots of traction issues specially in 2nd and 3rd. I can say that all stage 3 cars even with meth got about 4 cars from me .
The Nissan GTR gave me 1 car directly at start (damn what a nice car.... the chassi is amazing) but we held the same distance till 120mhp. There is A LOT to be taken out from this turbos, my car run fine all the time, no timing pull and lots of boost.

Originally Posted by enrita

Custom map 1: 82 Tq 73hp . Taper 40 - Meth
Boost at low rpm is a bit of a problem but T is working on it
Timing very good at over 13.5 at redline
Map 7 - no meth
Car is crazy fast and smooth on the custom map.

Originally Posted by enrita

Car works perfectly fine and strong on map 7 without meth with great timings.

I run always with meth so i am more interested in getting out the most power with it.

Originally Posted by enrita

Unfortunately i had a huge issue with my engine while running an m3 compressor. Since i still dont know the exact cause i am not able to give more details but the engine goes out next week so we will soon know for sure.
Please do not speculate or shoot tuner war related comments.
This is a serious matter and i will give details on what exactly broke down or caused it so that a similar issue can be avoided on other fellow members.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The maximum safety set limit is 20 psi but in this case it was raised at OP's request.

Your forgetting about the duty cycle limit though. Boost is limited by the duty cycle. With his 18 ohm resistors he was under targeting a solid 3psi. The ECU maxes out its duty cycle at around 1.5-2psi under target and JB3 PWM was at 100%. So there was no mechanism to allow more than 21-22psi. In a system that had no hardware duty cycle limit it would be another story and duty cycle could easily wind up at 100%.

There are simply a ton of unknowns at this power level. He was using the normal 4.7k fueling resistors even though 1k are suggested and there is a lot of concern over injector reliability at maxed out duty cycles. I read OP also had oxygen sensor codes leading up to the event which brings the air/fuel ratios in to question. As I said above your theory of a piece of the piston cracking off and bouncing around doesn't support OPs comments on what they've seen so far. But a cracked ringland or something below the ring does seem a likely suspect. It's also entirely possible the factory pistons simply can't withstand the pressure and heat required to do 40-155mph runs back to back @ 500whp+ levels.

Mike

Originally Posted by dzenno

A liitle update:

Enrita mentioned on the other forum that he had dual meth nozzles running and datalogs showed IATs go down for the run so this wasn't a cause. He went on to say that he went against advice and cranked boost up too high for this run and that's when the issue happened..

Sorry to hear enrita, honestly I've been there too where we try to squeeze out every last inch of power from our setups but we'll have to learn quickly but at the same time without some of us pushing limits we would never know where the limits are..sucks that this isn't happening on one of the tuners bills first as they'd be able to cover the loss from profis on sold merchandise and have access to shop/techs for much lower $ than we do..

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If it turns out to be detonation he had apparently done logs the runs previous and everything looked fine so it was a sudden failure. Aside from configuring the meth safety which was left disabled there isn't much out there that would have helped with that. Timing was 10-14 degrees so any CPS system would be running 0% offset. Fuel pressure was good. Fueling resistors are the same even though 1k resistors for richer air/fuel ratios are suggested. Key items in that case would be not configuring the meth safety and pushing 22psi on pump gas. Motors have been lost at much lower power levels with other tunes so I'm not sure the grand standing is necessary.

Mike

Originally Posted by enrita

well at least we now know that more than 21.5 psi on upgraded turbos, 94 octane plus meth is a VERY DANGEROUS AREA to be on.

No doubt timing was an issue on THIS car running 22 psi with a user modified board and no failsafes.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Clap135

o o o I know i know


one that control ignition lol. Funny how your mindset changes when you are the victim failure.

and also running only 17psi of boost, which from what I gather here is considered the safe limit, and no meth!

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

some highlights from the threads you posted:

1.Originally Posted by Sevak

Here is my short story. I have been running Stage3 with meth 17psi to
14psi at redline with 18 ohm mod for some time now without problems
and the car was running strong. I wanted some more power so I
installed 12 ohms to increase boost up a little a month ago and it has
been around 18-18,5psi but holding that until 6500rpm.

I have a Coolingmist meth kit with M8 nozzle and 95% meth with a flow
safety system but when logging I turn the safety off. Also I recently
learned I had the safety setup too weak with only 150ml/min safety
when it should be four times that for these higher boost levels I run
now. But I dont thinkt this is the problem.
Also I have nerver log timing.

BMS has been kind to me whit support and everything. Im the one wanted the car faster.
I think if you dont want to break anything run stage3 max boost 16 psi and 13,5 at redline.
If you run meth you must have a failsafe and max boost 17 psi and 14.5 at redline.

Also BMW limits power much lower for a reason so who knows
how long it will last even if everything is done perfectly.







I just threw this in for grins

and the band plays on, etc. etc.

You can't jump out of an airplane and expect that an umbrella is going to keep you from hitting the ground hard.





2. upgraded turbos=uncharted territory


























No doubt timing was an issue on THIS car running 22 psi with a user modified board and no failsafes.

I know all the threads and what REALLY happened inside and out. Im fully aware that User error did play a role.

Still interesting how they both switched to a different tune after though. I wonder why they would switch..... Any guesses?

[STONEY_M5]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

and also running only 17psi of boost, which from what I gather here is considered the safe limit, and no meth!

Up to 18 is good midrange but massive taper to about 11 at 6k would b smart...with meth I've seen 20 mid with 12-12.5 taper up top....

[STONEY_M5]

Then again that was on a jb tune lol

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by Litos

i guess you can speculate all you want, but we'll have to check eachother in 2 years.....

p.s.
mine is an 07 with 35k miles - i will guarantee that your car breaks before mine.

Why do you say that? my car is a 2010 with 11k miles on it? and i'm running a tune which controls timing.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I know all the threads and what REALLY happened inside and out. Im fully aware that User error did play a role.

Still interesting how they both switched to a different tune after though. I wonder why they would switch..... Any guesses?

don't know. I wish they would both run 22 psi and meth with no failsafes so we could do an apples to apples, but I think we all know that ain't gonna happen. Oh yeah, and don't forget to open up those other tunes and solder different resistors on them to defeat the built in hardware safeguards! LOL.

[Clap135]

Equal to.the amount of retarded misunderstood people in this thread.

Originally Posted by JB4135

Nice log clap.

I can read logs and do understand why your timing dropped.

How many hours or should I say days have you spent on this thread?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I know all the threads and what REALLY happened inside and out. Im fully aware that User error did play a role.

Still interesting how they both switched to a different tune after though. I wonder why they would switch..... Any guesses?

Maybe you should ask Enrita if he runs 22PSI on pump gas anymore without the proper safeties on his meth kit. I think the answer to that question will tell you the likely cause of failure here

With Enrita's situation there were so many points of possible failure that its really disingenuous to blame any one, especially as there is no proof of what actually happened.

Mike

[BrianMN]

Man I wish sevak didn't disappear ...

[enrita]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Man I wish sevak didn't disappear ...

Sevak's engine was never opened . It was sent directly to BMW germany and he got a new rebuilded one. the only thing the dealer could see is loss of compression on cylinder 5 i think.

[Jake@MOTIV]

Mike - I really find it entertaining to watch the smoke and mirror responses you put up. As someone who tunes as a hobby and as a fun side job on multiple platforms including DI, EFI and even old school carburated with fuel and timing resolutions that make an 12x12 table look ENORMOUS - I just can't believe that someone who is "in the business" can stomach all the nonsense you spit. Irregardless of how capable the DME is or isn't at pulling timing and adapting - the GOAL of tuning is to make efficient power and prevent knock events. When I tune my car, a customers car, ANY car - if it EVER has signs of knock I adjust the tune to fix it and by fix it I mean a solid gap between the knock threshold and the timing I leave in the tables. Now you can say "oh well the stock dme runs this way and it was designed to do this and it works really great" and even your typical "show me proof as there are 1000s of JB tunes out there and no failures". That is just a terrible response because it shows you are either really that dumb when it comes to tuning OR extremely unethical because a failure isn't the only indicative measure of an improper tune. I am sure you'll come back at me with your normal pony tricks to spin what I am saying to look like I am hating or bashing or whatever. I am simply stating fact. It doesn't matter what car on what platform on what motor - engine tuning is a concrete topic. Spark, air, and fuel. ECU logic comes into play alot these days but the ECU logic I speak of can't be controlled by a piggy back which is why flash tuning or standalones for the most part are often more powerful (and by powerful I don't mean make more power - I mean more control and safer methods of making that power). Piggybacks offer integration advantages over flashes sometimes but an incomplete piggback solution that allows the car to knock and justifies the lack of timing control abilities as "the DME is so good at it" is just scary. You are lucky on this platform that people don't understand tuning at all and think you are actually a smart guy because the rest of the tuning community would call you a joke and a scammer of sorts (the fact that you may knowingly say all the bs that you spin to help you sell products).

Anyways - aside from any hate and bashing - the moral of the story is the basics of tuning. Anyone willing to learn will hopefully see through peoples hate and what you like to call fanboy-ism and just realize that engine tuning isn't something new - it isn't something reinvented on the bmw - its just something that most here don't know about and should learn because timing is crucial. Just because a product makes power and doesn't blow a motor doesn't mean its a good product. It means the DME is using the safety logic coded into it to prevent failure (which in my opinion shouldn't ever need to be in play because a good tune would prevent the occurences that trigger it to be used). It means the engine is stout and can take the abuse. I don't care what people do. I gain nothing by what tune people go with. But people should learn and make educated decisions - not decisions based on bad advice they get from a salesman who is like the guy from that movie Thank You for Not Smoking.

At the end of the day I don't think there is a complete tuning solution on this market yet. I think some are better than others and some shouldn't be called a tune. I can't wait for the day that a tune is actually available and lets me tune the car myself. It seems like Shiv mentioned he may do this but Feb has come and is nearly gone. Cobb will eventually release ATR and that will allow us to tune our cars to run as intended (instead of blanket OTS tunes designed for 1000s of cars to run on). So don't think I am picking on you for the fact that I am a fan of another tune - because as of now I still say there is no COMPLETE tuning solution on the market - some are just closer than others.

[Morpheus]

You may gain nothing depending on what tune other people run, but we as a community all benefit when there is more than one tuning solution. Features and development are up and prices are down. Good support and upgrade paths. I shudder to think what would happen if one person held all the cards.

I don't understand this tune bashing. If you are happy with your tune-great! Why bash another option when it's helping to keep yours affordable and in constant development.

I'm happy with my JB. I know basic tuning principles. I don't get on forums and bash procede, Cobb, giac, etc. It's counterproductive for all involved.

Now if there were motors blowing left and right-average joes like me just looking for 80 or so horsepower, then yeah, I might see it as a civic duty. But as is, it's highly suspect.

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

You may gain nothing depending on what tune other people run, but we as a community all benefit when there is more than one tuning solution. Features and development are up and prices are down. Good support and upgrade paths. I shudder to think what would happen if one person held all the cards.

I don't understand this tune bashing. If you are happy with your tune-great! Why bash another option when it's helping to keep yours affordable and in constant development.

I'm happy with my JB. I know basic tuning principles. I don't get on forums and bash procede, Cobb, giac, etc. It's counterproductive for all involved.

Now if there were motors blowing left and right-average joes like me just looking for 80 or so horsepower, then yeah, I might see it as a civic duty. But as is, it's highly suspect.

Reread my post. I am all for competition because I am ultimately a cheap bastard and enjoy that things drive prices down.

But you say you understand basic tuning principles. I find that suspect. I have a rather indepth understanding as I have been doing it for a decent amount of time and doing it as more than a hobby. Your statement about engine failures is just a very poor justification to anything I have said. Engine failure shouldn't even be a topic. This engine doesn't "fail" because it is stout and the dme has good safety logic. I say this because you rely on that logic when real tuning uses that logic as a backup - not as a source for tuning. You can be annoyed with me and hate me all you want - but everything I say is based of tuning fact - not opinion. Safety logic is just that - programming in the dme or any ecu that is there in case something happens and it prevents failure. Our dme is good at that - it shouldn't be used as the primary source to tune the timing curve of the car - it should be used in case the timing curve that your tune actually calls for sees an occurence that is causing conditions in which knock is present.

To sum things up - I said engine failure shouldn't be a topic. That is not how you classify a good tune or a bad tune. That is the end result of misuse, abuse, or a HORRID tune or catastrophe. Knock is knock. Knock isn't some imaginary thing that we use to describe a situation. Knock creates wear inside a cylinder. As knock occurs in lower power settings (i.e. stock boost) it does a certain amount of wear or damage- this could be negligeable because the motor is so stout - but it still causes wear. As knock occurs in higher power settings it does more "wear" than it did at stock boost levels. Over time wear adds up - whether that means consuming oil faster, running a little hotter, creating higher % in a leak down, or compounding results of all of these - knock is NOT in any way shape or form harmless. That is physics and that is fact. Knock doesnt give a shit if it is in a geo metro or a bmw n54. So ya - theres a little more info.

[onesuperboi]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

You may gain nothing depending on what tune other people run, but we as a community all benefit when there is more than one tuning solution. Features and development are up and prices are down. Good support and upgrade paths. I shudder to think what would happen if one person held all the cards.

I don't understand this tune bashing. If you are happy with your tune-great! Why bash another option when it's helping to keep yours affordable and in constant development.

I'm happy with my JB. I know basic tuning principles. I don't get on forums and bash procede, Cobb, giac, etc. It's counterproductive for all involved.

Now if there were motors blowing left and right-average joes like me just looking for 80 or so horsepower, then yeah, I might see it as a civic duty. But as is, it's highly suspect.

Eh, what is tune bashing? Anything negative said about the tune it tune bashing? Do you only want to hear the good things in life?

People have been calling out on the JB tune since it's not able to control timing. Have you seen the graphs posted here with the timing dips? That's what you are likely to see if you are running the tune. And, just because there aren't any catastrophic failures DOES NOT mean it's the correct way to tune a car.

Every tune seems to knock, but the JB knocks A LOT MORE than the other tunes.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

Eh, what is tune bashing? Anything negative said about the tune it tune bashing? Do you only want to hear the good things in life?

People have been calling out on the JB tune since it's not able to control timing. Have you seen the graphs posted here with the timing dips? That's what you are likely to see if you are running the tune. And, just because there aren't any catastrophic failures DOES NOT mean it's the correct way to tune a car.

Every tune seems to knock, but the JB knocks A LOT MORE than the other tunes.

Tune bashing in this case means creating a thread with the express purpose of discrediting a specific product and it's salesperson.

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Tune bashing in this case means creating a thread with the express purpose of discrediting a specific product and it's salesperson.

Read post 1274. You made some statements directed at me. I responded. Hopefully you see this as a discussion (specifically between you and I) and not an arguement. I am sincere in my efforts to epxlain engine tuning and what constitutes "failure" as an engine failure isn't what you look for with how good or bad a tune is. If people only looked for engine failures to see how good or bad a tune was - the concept of knocking wouldn't exist.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by FlyLow335i

Reread my post. I am all for competition because I am ultimately a cheap bastard and enjoy that things drive prices down.

But you say you understand basic tuning principles. I find that suspect. I have a rather indepth understanding as I have been doing it for a decent amount of time and doing it as more than a hobby. Your statement about engine failures is just a very poor justification to anything I have said. Engine failure shouldn't even be a topic. This engine doesn't "fail" because it is stout and the dme has good safety logic. I say this because you rely on that logic when real tuning uses that logic as a backup - not as a source for tuning. You can be annoyed with me and hate me all you want - but everything I say is based of tuning fact - not opinion. Safety logic is just that - programming in the dme or any ecu that is there in case something happens and it prevents failure. Our dme is good at that - it shouldn't be used as the primary source to tune the timing curve of the car - it should be used in case the timing curve that your tune actually calls for sees an occurence that is causing conditions in which knock is present.

To sum things up - I said engine failure shouldn't be a topic. That is not how you classify a good tune or a bad tune. That is the end result of misuse, abuse, or a HORRID tune or catastrophe. Knock is knock. Knock isn't some imaginary thing that we use to describe a situation. Knock creates wear inside a cylinder. As knock occurs in lower power settings (i.e. stock boost) it does a certain amount of wear or damage- this could be negligeable because the motor is so stout - but it still causes wear. As knock occurs in higher power settings it does more "wear" than it did at stock boost levels. Over time wear adds up - whether that means consuming oil faster, running a little hotter, creating higher % in a leak down, or compounding results of all of these - knock is NOT in any way shape or form harmless. That is physics and that is fact. Knock doesnt give a shit if it is in a geo metro or a bmw n54. So ya - theres a little more info.

Okay mr. Wizard. I'm not interested in your pissing contest. I don't even claim to be a hobbyist. Ive had my say and it's all out there for everyone to see. Certainly you're entitled to your opinion.

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Okay mr. Wizard. I'm not interested in your pissing contest. I don't even claim to be a hobbyist. Ive had my say and it's all out there for everyone to see. Certainly you're entitled to your opinion.

so much for an honest discussion lol...apparently you'd rather get angry / frutsrated and resort to name calling and childish remarks -> "pissing contest" - instead of discussing things and maybe shedding light on something i never thought about or missed - i love to learn so discussions always intrigue me - guess you weren't intersted...

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by Litos

yeah, this was expected......

"...running a modified 12 ohm board (duty cycle safety bypassed) with around 18.5-19psi on meth/pump and little taper..."


"...Turbo Dynamic Stage 2 turbos...."



nice try, but those are isolates cases of 1) being a retard and 2) running bigger turbos.

show me a jb3/jb4 car with minimal boltons that has burned to the ground.....

and even if you find one or two, that's cool. that's one or two out of thousands of cars that have been running these tunes for the last 2 years....

You are right...and Terry should be on his hands/knees everyday praying and thanking the BMW engineering gods for designing such a good knock sensor and DME with proper logic to save its ass when he asks it to run 14-17psi of boost with no timing control whatsoever.

[onesuperboi]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Tune bashing in this case means creating a thread with the express purpose of discrediting a specific product and it's salesperson.

What has been said so far is true; the JB tune knocks, and it knocks more than the other tunes because it doesn't control the timing in any way, shape, or form.

The tune works, but it's working without using all the principals of tuning- specifically timing.

And, I said this before, I wish someone else singed up in this form from JB (maybe one of their engineers or someone else with tuning knowledge) to discuss these terms. Because frankly speaking, how can you accept what a person is saying without tuning experience? Are you going to accept someone's medical diagnosis if they have no medical background?

Shiv can be seen as a salesperson, but he also is the one the tunes the product and has tuning experience.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by FlyLow335i

so much for an honest discussion lol...apparently you'd rather get angry / frutsrated and resort to name calling and childish remarks -> "pissing contest" - instead of discussing things and maybe shedding light on something i never thought about or missed - i love to learn so discussions always intrigue me - guess you weren't intersted...

I'm not angry. Didn't bother to read the rest. It's all been said already.