[dzenno]

Hey when did this thread start? 59 pages already??? this must be the fastest growing thread in e90post history...what's all the fuss about?

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

I'm not angry. Didn't bother to read the rest. It's all been said already.

so a blown motor is the only sign that a tune isn't good in your opinion?

i stated this in my posts as a legit comment - but you didnt read it so i would like to know your opinion on this...

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by FlyLow335i

so a blown motor is the only sign that a tune isn't good in your opinion?

i stated this in my posts as a legit comment - but you didnt read it so i would like to know your opinion on this...

your not going to get anywhere with Morpheus. He's a smartass, nothing more. Perhaps i'm wrong, but so far in this thread thats what I get from him.

[Jake@MOTIV]

smart ass? lol (i guess i am name calling now)...i am sure he's a smart guy as a whole - but i guess i don't understand how people can argue with tuning facts. no platform is exempt from the basic principles of tuning.

i guess i'll repeat myself as i really feel this is a key point that hasn't been hit enough.

I really feel the dme's ability to reactively pull timing so fast as a response to knock is an INCREDIBLE safety feature - however it is NOT an approach to tuning. It should be used as your back up in case the car gets into conditions in which the tune does knock in those rare situations but its safety logic and as such should be secondary - not primary. You cannot judge a tune as "good" or "bad" based on the fact that few to none engines have blown on them. Thats like saying (and back to cigarrette analogy) that smoking is only bad if it kills you and ignoring all the other things like living with a painful cancer, stained teeth, bad breath, shorterness of breath, and the wear it is doing on your lungs. Go ask a person who has smoked for a few years if they are dead from smoking lol. I bet they say no. They aren't dead so that means smoking isn't bad for you? If you were to open that person up I bet their lungs would not look as healthy (they would be worn down / degraded) compared to their lungs before they started smoking or if they had never started. Obviously very extreme comparison but what do you guys think knock is? Knock is a detrimental event to engines. It won't necessarily blow your motor (although it definately can if the event is strong enough) but every bit of knock does some damage/wear on your engine. How much is to be debated - but if you know it can do some damage (small or large) and you know there are ways to tune appropriately to avoid knock (maybe entirely - which will be the case soon when we can tune our cars instead of running mass tunes, maybe just some more than others) - why would anyone choose to allow any knock or more occurences of knock with it being FACT that knock is NOT healthy for motors - no matter how miniscule it is.

[jpirelli]

Oh man, how many times can the same things be said over and over before anyone gets it?

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by jpirelli

Oh man, how many times can the same things be said over and over before anyone gets it?

i guess it hasn't been enough yet lol

[Clap135]

If understanding is a.challenge...repetition usually gets it done imo. I must have repeated myself so many times in this thread....only for someone else to repeat what I previously sad that I simply got annoyed and started posting less.

Originally Posted by jpirelli

Oh man, how many times can the same things be said over and over before anyone gets it?

[bimmertt]

Originally Posted by FlyLow335i

smart ass? lol (i guess i am name calling now)...i am sure he's a smart guy as a whole - but i guess i don't understand how people can argue with tuning facts. no platform is exempt from the basic principles of tuning.

i guess i'll repeat myself as i really feel this is a key point that hasn't been hit enough.

I really feel the dme's ability to reactively pull timing so fast as a response to knock is an INCREDIBLE safety feature - however it is NOT an approach to tuning. It should be used as your back up in case the car gets into conditions in which the tune does knock in those rare situations but its safety logic and as such should be secondary - not primary. You cannot judge a tune as "good" or "bad" based on the fact that few to none engines have blown on them. Thats like saying (and back to cigarrette analogy) that smoking is only bad if it kills you and ignoring all the other things like living with a painful cancer, stained teeth, bad breath, shorterness of breath, and the wear it is doing on your lungs. Go ask a person who has smoked for a few years if they are dead from smoking lol. I bet they say no. They aren't dead so that means smoking isn't bad for you? If you were to open that person up I bet their lungs would not look as healthy (they would be worn down / degraded) compared to their lungs before they started smoking or if they had never started. Obviously very extreme comparison but what do you guys think knock is? Knock is a detrimental event to engines. It won't necessarily blow your motor (although it definately can if the event is strong enough) but every bit of knock does some damage/wear on your engine. How much is to be debated - but if you know it can do some damage (small or large) and you know there are ways to tune appropriately to avoid knock (maybe entirely - which will be the case soon when we can tune our cars instead of running mass tunes, maybe just some more than others) - why would anyone choose to allow any knock or more occurences of knock with it being FACT that knock is NOT healthy for motors - no matter how miniscule it is.

Perfect analogy. I still don't understand how people are trying to debate this.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Maybe you should ask Enrita if he runs 22PSI on pump gas anymore without the proper safeties on his meth kit. I think the answer to that question will tell you the likely cause of failure here

With Enrita's situation there were so many points of possible failure that its really disingenuous to blame any one, especially as there is no proof of what actually happened.

Mike

I just asked a question.... what tune does he run now? and why?

Originally Posted by Morpheus

You may gain nothing depending on what tune other people run, but we as a community all benefit when there is more than one tuning solution. Features and development are up and prices are down. Good support and upgrade paths. I shudder to think what would happen if one person held all the cards.

I don't understand this tune bashing. If you are happy with your tune-great! Why bash another option when it's helping to keep yours affordable and in constant development.

I'm happy with my JB. I know basic tuning principles. I don't get on forums and bash procede, Cobb, giac, etc. It's counterproductive for all involved.

Now if there were motors blowing left and right-average joes like me just looking for 80 or so horsepower, then yeah, I might see it as a civic duty. But as is, it's highly suspect.

You JB crews confused bashing with the truth.

If you knew basic tuning principals, then you I guess you missed the part where timing control is top priority in tuning 101. Maybe you skipped the page perhaps. Or maybe you read in fairytale land that increasing boost and letting stock the stock computer and sensors is the IDEAL way of controlling ignition.

Cool story.

Originally Posted by Sniz

your not going to get anywhere with Morpheus. He's a smartass, nothing more. Perhaps i'm wrong, but so far in this thread thats what I get from him.

You said it not me.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

For those just checking in....here are the cliff notes of the thread.

Several Fanbois are in Denial of the IDEAL practices of tuning....

Instead of admitting that its not the IDEAL way of tuning they chose to bicker back and forth with questions that have no SUBSTANCE of the original point.

The original point is quite simple; in the tuning world ideally you want a tune that controls EVERYTHING by the tune itself (that means not relying on stock hardware that is made for stock power to control anything). You want to be able to dial in the tune for power and safety, WITH NO COMPROMISES along the way.

Originally Posted by Clap135

However the goal should to set timing so the max value at any given rpm is below the knock threshold. you should only rely on the knock sensor to pull timing in bad conditions not everytime you floor the car.

In short, riding the knock sensor, AKA "adapting" is not what you will find any tuner practicing. You guys can go do yourselves a favor and look up a local tuner in your area. I dont care if they tune mustangs, hondas, or puegots and ask them how they feel on the subject of controlling ignition.

[Litos]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

Why do you say that? my car is a 2010 with 11k miles on it? and i'm running a tune which controls timing.

i know - my car is older, has more miles and is running a tune that doesn't control timing.

your car is newer, has less miles and is running a different tune that controls timing.

i bet mine lasts longer.....

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Litos

i know - my car is older, has more miles and is running a tune that doesn't control timing.

your car is newer, has less miles and is running a different tune that controls timing.

i bet mine lasts longer.....

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Litos

i know - my car is older, has more miles and is running a tune that doesn't control timing.

your car is newer, has less miles and is running a different tune that controls timing.

i bet mine lasts longer.....

Cool story. Neither of you will be around these forums to see the "last day" of the car when it meets the crusher.

Back on topic now.

[Clap135]

I think he should worry about squeezing heavier 24s that weight more instead of tuning.

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by Litos

i know - my car is older, has more miles and is running a tune that doesn't control timing.

your car is newer, has less miles and is running a different tune that controls timing.

i bet mine lasts longer.....

as for this thread, we've all made it simple that the jb is not the safest tune to run, anyone who questions that, you honestly just like to hear yourself talk.

[e92stance]

Very interesting.......so, lololol.....whats the best tune right now? I am leaning towards Procede after readying all these posts. I am just interested in running a tune with all else stock. Mods in the future, chime in gents.

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by e92stance

Very interesting.......so, lololol.....whats the best tune right now? I am leaning towards Procede after readying all these posts. I am just interested in running a tune with all else stock. Mods in the future, chime in gents.

want to stick with something safe and quick? go with a tune that has the ability to control timing, such as cobb or procede.

[e92stance]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

want to stick with something safe and quick? go with a tune that has the ability to control timing, such as cobb or procede.

Yeah thats what im thinking....jeez, just when I thought I had it all figured out and was ready to order my jb4!! lol

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

want to stick with something safe and quick? go with a tune that has the ability to control timing, such as cobb or procede.

You left out GIAC, who has the most experience of any of the tuners on this forum with FI tuning, oh, and support 07 cars.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by techlogik

You left out GIAC, who has the most experience of any of the tuners on this forum with FI tuning, oh, and support 07 cars.

and no custom tunning or resale along with a pita flash procedure.

[BobS]

Originally Posted by Clap135

and no custom tunning or resale along with a pita flash procedure.

I know that does annoy me. But I love the tune and reliability (no codes). I'm pretty sure they have custom tuning for other platforms, I wonder if they will eventually for BMW?

Can you resell a Cobb or is it locked specific to the vin/engine serial number?

Edit: Actually it looks like their custom tuning is for specific kits.... http://www.giacusa.com/giac_upgrade_kits.php
I thought they still did some custom tuning though.

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

want to stick with something safe and quick? go with a tune that has the ability to control timing, such as cobb or procede.

I would go with Cobb between those 2.