[steaman]

The biggest threat to humanity is ignorance and stupidity!

[Booster4075]

Originally Posted by purplewidow

personally i still have no clue why you are doing this..why wouldn't you trade the car in and get one with idrive or sell it personally then go buy another one.

personally i would NEVER EVER WANT TO OWN YOUR CAR AFTER YOU....as soon as i found out it you had it retrofitted i would say bye bye..this doesn't seem good for resale..i would never want my system messed around with like that..and if it does use a faster processor then your idrive will be crawling along..i just don't have a clue why you would do this..not a clue..seems like a big waste of time. and your resale value wouldn't be tooo hot. i would bet if a regional tech saw what your doing your warranty on that part would be voided. and that would be uber expensive and your resale would PLUMIT!!

good luck i hope it works out..but your taking a big big gamble and doing things the uber difficult way.. i really hope it works though!!!! Good Luck

Why am I doing this? Because my car doesn't have idrive and I want it. Is it worth trading in my car and buying a new one? NO. Here in California, I will lose more than twice as much as its costs me to to this retrofit, just in SALES TAX (again.) I bought my car used (nearly new) and it didn't come with it. I looked, but was unable to find the perfect car for me. I would have wanted idrive and heated seats - both of which I plan to retrofit. I even went out and bought a Garmin Nuvi and a nice mount..still not happy. If I actually sold my car and bought one with idrive , it'd cost me $15k or more, plus that sales tax (again!)

I would not expect you to buy my car used as I don't plan to sell it. However, should someone be in the market, unless they pull the out the glove box assembly and have a trained eye, they will never know. Most technicians won't even notice. Not that I'm trying to hide it, but the whole point is to make it a OEM retrofit. Factory parts, factory wiring locations, factory software. It should be (and will be in my case) transparent to everyone and look like it came with the car. It WON'T be a hack-job with butchered wiring...hell, there's barely any wiring involved that isn't already there. As for resale, I bet anyone looking at the car would add a blue-book add for SatNav and not think anymore about it. If its done right, I don't think there's any harm in disclosing a factory SatNav retrofit, since it looks and works like it should. Clearly there won't be any warranty on parts involved, but thats a no-brainer. Warranty's not really an issue if I don't sell my car until it has a 150K miles on it... I'm sure the next buyer will be glad to have it.

[rob72]

Just to clarify as their seems to be some confusion over different Audio and speaker systems.

In Europe we have the following audio systems;
- basic Radio (for lack of a better name)
- Radio Professional (default in the US)
- Business Navi
- Professional Navi

And the following speaker systems;
- basic speakers (again, for lack of a better name)
- HiFi (default in the US)
- HiFi Professional / Logic7
- Individual High End audio system

Now the combination of the basic radio with Logic7 or the Individual High End audio system is not allowed, but other then that you can have any combination.

Note however that availability of options seems to be up to the local distributor, so not every country/region will have the same options available. This especially applies to the UK and US/Canada.
Also in some cases the systems might have a slightly different name, such as the Logic7 system being called HiFi Professional.

Also for the person who commented that European iDrive systems can play DVD movies, we wish!

[rob72]

And I just quickly checked, the UK has all 4 speaker options available, so the system you have could in theory be coded for any of them. But most likely it is either coded for the basic speakers or the HiFi.

The only thing the UK does not seem to have is the basic radio as it seems that even the lowest end model (318i ES) has the Professional Radio as standard equipment.

[Booster4075]

For clarification, is the basic (no frills) radio called "N9" ?

[Booster4075]

Well, I hooked-up the system (on the passenger footwell) for tomorrow's programming attempt.

For what its worth, this is what I have learned:

1) It appears that the system was probably NOT hooked up to Logic 7 amp before I owned it - Rob72 guessed it. My CCC only has simple bass/treble controls, however, it does have speed-sensitive volume. Sound like basic or Hifi system? My thinking is that when re-coded, it will have DSP/eq controls as Logic 7 does..

2) Of special interest to djdaveyg, I did hook up a speaker to one of the outputs (pin 2 and 6, on x13812) and got audio output directly from the back! (no amplifier)

3) The steering wheel controls all seemed to work. Volume worked (as evidenced by point #2, above), and I was able to program the recirc/audio source buttons on the right side. Using the arrow keys on the right, I was also able to change CD tracks.

4) For whatever reason, the time and date displayed correctly on the CID today (it didn't last time I hooked it up) - obviously picking it up over the K-can bus from the instrument cluster data.

5) I have not yet tested navigation, as I need a male-to-male fakra connector (or similar to tie into the TCM lead for the GPS antenna.) I'll attempt to hook this up (somehow) today to see if nav works.

6) Vent/AC controls on the CCC have no effect, my guess due to programming issues. Still no audio via the amp/speakers either, MOST programming likely the cause on this also.

[Booster4075]

Well, I stand corrected. The ventilation controls DO work, I just didn't have the ignition on.

Also, SatNav works with the factory sharkfin antenna - I disconnected the TCU antenna connector (blue Fakra) and jumped it to my extension cable to the CCC - works like a charm. No voice guidance of course, but it "acts" like it working. Traffic does not work, but I think thats due to region/frequency coding.

When I start the car, SOS warning comes up on dash - likely due to my original coded radio not being hooked up.

As I stated before, AM band doesn't seem to work correctly since its in 9khz steps instead of 10khz. FM seems to work even though its in .1 Mhz steps instead of .2 like U.S. Radio data (song/title/station) comes through fine. Interesting, but likely due to the UK coding of the CCC, there is SW band on there also!

[dubber1]

I glanced at this thread a week or two ago and didn't pay much attention to it. I just read it in more depth now and am very impressed that you are taking this on. Good luck with the project!

[djdaveyg]

Booster, Thanks for checking the audio, at least i know now that an amp is not required.

Good news that the time and date is working, seems like your very close to a fully working system. Fingers crossed they can code the unit.

Did the PDC still work?

I have been searching around for some kit on ebay and have found a system up for sale in holland. Im waiting on the guy to give me the part numbers if he speaks english, but the CCC has numbered buttons 1-8 by the look of it. The date code is 02 2007. The idrive controller also has 2 buttons.

Any idea what the differance between a CCC with no numbered buttons and a CCC wityh numbered buttons is. (later version?) I know the face plate if different, but thats ok, i have start stop and have a button to switch it on an off.

[iatacs19]

No numbered buttons is pre-march 2007 production, after march 2007 they all have the shortcut buttons. 1-6 for USA, 1-8 for Europe.

edit:

March 2007 and later production got rid of the voice button on the controller knob for USA, not sure about Europe.

[Booster4075]

Originally Posted by djdaveyg

Booster, Thanks for checking the audio, at least i know now that an amp is not required.

Good news that the time and date is working, seems like your very close to a fully working system. Fingers crossed they can code the unit.

Did the PDC still work?

I have been searching around for some kit on ebay and have found a system up for sale in holland. Im waiting on the guy to give me the part numbers if he speaks english, but the CCC has numbered buttons 1-8 by the look of it. The date code is 02 2007. The idrive controller also has 2 buttons.

Any idea what the differance between a CCC with no numbered buttons and a CCC wityh numbered buttons is. (later version?) I know the face plate if different, but thats ok, i have start stop and have a button to switch it on an off.

You know...I didn't even try the PDC (forgot)..but I'll let you know when I go to get it programmed today. I like those newer generation CCC's with the buttons...nice! (I'm pretty sure they're fully programmable.) Make sure to get the LVDS cable and anything else they'll throw in so you don't have to buy it later.

I really hope this programming works today - it'll really open the door for retrofits like yours on E90's everywhere!

[djdaveyg]

Ok, The guy does speak english. No cables included! Booster, does the LVDS cable have a part number? im happy to make a cable for the controller.

Here are the part numbers

CCC. 658391501138
MONITOR 65829151979

Does the system have a language option within idrive?

iatacs, thanks for the info.

Cheers

[Booster4075]

Well, I went down the place today to get it all programmed and such (with wires and the screen on the floor) - no radio working of course (when's the last time you've driven with no radio in heavy traffic??) - due to a scheduling conflict yesterday, the guy I've been working with is off until tomorrow. For the love of God..

Doh!

More updates tomorrow...

[Booster4075]

Originally Posted by djdaveyg

Ok, The guy does speak english. No cables included! Booster, does the LVDS cable have a part number? im happy to make a cable for the controller.

Here are the part numbers

CCC. 658391501138
MONITOR 65829151979

Does the system have a language option within idrive?

iatacs, thanks for the info.

Cheers

Oh yeah, BTW, the PDC does work (!) and displays cool rear "radar" - however, no audio tones. (again, likely due to the amp/etc.. not being programmed on MOST bus.)
ALSO - all the maintenance stuff (oil level, service due, etc..) all works too.

djdaveyg - LVDS cable is 61 12 6 935 686. I think its around $25-30. Don't make this one, just buy it (its shielded and has special connectors.)

There are language options within Idrive, however, mine is stuck in either UK English, French or Spanish I think. I'm pretty sure that depending on region coding, the base language and secondary options will change. I "acquired" this list - don't know how accurate it is:
i-drive language options:

Base Language / Options
GERMAN: FRENCH & E-UK
FRENCH: SPANISH & UK
ITALIAN: GERMAN & UK
DUTCH: UK & FRENCH
SWISS GERMAN: FRENCH & ITALIAN
SPANISH: FRENCH & UK
USA: FRENCH & SPANISH

There are quite a few part numbers and supercessions for these parts. I'm hoping progman can sort it out the CCC part numbers and make it happen! I don't think the CID part number makes any difference. I'm compiling a parts list (including all the screws, cooling pipe, etc...) so that the DIY will be complete for those who are interested.

[Booster4075]

Well, I spent half the day today trying to get idrive programmed. No good news. The tech (who spent a lot of time and who I believe honestly wants this to work) was unable to get program manager (progman) to talk to the CCC. Based on the VIN on my car, progman was looking for M-Ask, not CCC. The "retrofit" program (business to professional), as much as I had hoped, did not work in this case. He attempted connecting several times, and did some other out-of-the-way procedure whose name escapes me, to no avail. Without the "gateway" (CCC, or in my case, the RAD2 radio) responding to progman, the system stops and won't program anything. It was still a little unclear if my CCC (of UK origin) was at fault, but I think we believe it has more to due with the car not being built with the module than the module itself. I have a couple of printouts that show the sheer complexity of the systems, the engineering, and fault diagnosis. Amazingly, there is a fault stored for the CCC fan not working (which I hadn't even hooked up for this programming since the CCC wasn't installed in the dash.)

His next suggestion was to have a new "vehicle order" created by BMW engineers to reflect the change of equipment in the car. Evidently, this is done commonly for other retrofits, when tech's have problems, or systems go haywire, however, it is out of the norm for a technician to accomplish and cannot be done solely at the dealership level.

Game's not over for the retrofit, but this is not a simple programming "update" or retrofit as most had hoped or thought. I will be talking to a few other people (in the know) regarding this and keep everyone updated on the progress.

Frustrating though, since this thing works like 75%. (Things not working: all audio, all telephony/bluetooth/SOS-assist, traffic info.)
Everything else works perfectly...steering wheel controls, satnav, vent controls, controller, CID, trip computer, date/time, etc...

Let me if anyone has programming suggestions or other ideas....

[djdaveyg]

Not sure how the BMW programming system works, but where does it get the VIN information from?

Does it pick it up from the cars system or is it manually entered.

If its manually entered then maybe if you could get hold of a VIN from a car that has or had the system , it may fool it into initially programming the system in your car and enable you to add all your bluetooth ect.

[djdaveyg]

OK,

I have spoke to an indipendant garage specializing in BMW. The have a system called autologic to diagnose faults and to program ect. I then spoke to Autologic based here in the UK. They also have 1000 units in use throughout USA.

Now the guy on the phone was very helpful and basicly said that there system is a backward engineered system to work with BMW's. I said what we were trying to do and he said that he they can change the vehicle order. If you take your car to a garage with Autologic, they get a file from the car, send it to autologic and they can rework it so the car can be configured for a retrofit. He knew what he was talking about and mentioned the MASK and CCC.

The head office is in the UK so any files sent from the US would come to the guy that i spoke with on the phone.

He obviously stated that he could not guarantee that it would work.

Might be another option.

[Booster4075]

Evidently, the knowledge is out there about how to change the vehicle order and reprogram it. This info is then put on a disk, which is then uploaded to the car. I'm thinking it might be better to have BMW do it, then (as I was told), every update you get is not a problem because they "know" what equipment your vehicle has, as it is changed in their database. I just talked to another acquaintance who agreed a custom vehicle order file is what its gonna take. The people that "know" say this makes sense and a customer VO is necessary.

To be honest, I don't know where that VIN data comes from, but I gotta believe it comes over the bus when they plug into it...its likely coded into one or more modules on the car. On my printout, under vehicle identification, it says, "Automatic." I was thinking of tricking the computer too, but truly believe that might be a bad idea with all of the equipment needing to be identical (?)

What happened to the old days of vehicle mods? (and I'm not that old!) I never had to get my car programmed/coded/re-ordered to do anything cool in the past! Is this the future...gotta run everything by "The Man" before it will work? Yikes.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by Booster4075

Well, today I got the dealer I've been working with to allow me to hook the system up (literally on the passenger side floor) to see if they will be able to program it. In doing this, I don't have to risk changing the dash or anything permanent to my pristine car to see if it can be coded/programmed. The shop foreman seems fairly confident that the CCC will work utilizing the existing business-to-professional nav system retrofit software, however, he thinks there'll be a hitch since my CCC is from the UK with a strange part number according to their catalog. (however, the CCC says ECE/US right on it.) People that I have been talking to on the net say that progman will decide if it'll fly or not based on part number. Only progman knows! At least its hope! - Tuesday is the day and I will update on my success or failure of this mission. If it works, I'll order up a dash and completely do it!

Cooling pipes - yes, I have thought of that. There is a small pipe that goes with CCC equipped cars (p/n: 64 11 6 928 875) - I'm not sure what it does (force cool air onto the CCC fan?), but I'm going to order it along with the dash and other parts when its time. I want to make this as close to an OEM install as possible. I'm sure there's a reason for it - a lot of the documentation I've been reading say MOST devices can and will get hot.

Controller - my one-button controller doesn't seem to have a part number on it. The business-to-professional satnav retrofit controller (high) p/n is : 65 82 9 122 027. However, I don't know for sure if this is a one or two button controller - I'm guessing its a two button based on the sketch in the retrofit instructions. I will gladly sell my one-button controller so that I can obtain a two button(!) anyone??

djdaveyg - On Monday when I tear this all apart and hook it all up (for pretend..LOL), I'll try the speaker outputs on the CCC to see what happens. I have no idea if the car my CCC came from was audio-amp equipped though.

As for the RAD2/CCC power supply - Is your car newer than 9/07? Is the "plain" stereo considered "N9"? The way I'm reading the schematic, the power actually comes over connector x13812 to all types of radios. (Beware, I'm reading x13815 as the MOST bus connector.) Although, it is confusing! I'm reading four different fuse locations F11, F14, F31, and F40 depending on equipment and build date. Some RAD2 radios also use 20a fuses. Weird. I am not finding that F56 goes to any radio or related equipment though. Maybe your WDS is newer than mine. Somewhat reassuring, though, is that on all of the diagrams (whether 10A or 20A fuse is shown), all of the power supply lead wiring to pin 15 of x13812 show as "2.5"(mm?) as wire diameter size (regardless of fuse size.) Seems like a safe bet to use either fuse as long as its proper for the application. On a side note, the CID gets its power from fuse F61 (10A) in all applications/build dates.

I'm missing something here... CCC is the Professional Nav, M-ASK is the Business Nav. So why this "Business to Professional" software in a CCC? If in fact this is a CCC, what is this "retrofit software" application doing here?

Why the tech just starts by coding the CCC for the USA and see what happens?

For the audio output types, so far all BMW documentation points towards a dual output capability of the OEM HU and CCC/M-ASK units. It could be either analog or digital depending of the audio system application (analog ouputs in base/HiFi or digital outputs in Top HiFi). So again, programming should be enough to switch the outputs (of course, you will need the proper hardware connections to interface with the respective OEM amp).

[steaman]

Is seems as the only way to change the configuration in DIS is to select a retrofit path. The only available retrofit path for Professional Navigation is from Business to Professional.

Personally I would like to get my hands on a DIS and do some serious coding on my one, but $5000 for a license is a bit to much.

[Technic]

Originally Posted by steaman

Is seems as the only way to change the configuration in DIS is to select a retrofit path. The only available retrofit path for Professional Navigation is from Business to Professional.

Personally I would like to get my hands on a DIS and do some serious coding on my one, but $5000 for a license is a bit to much.

Of course it won't work then... this DIS procedure is no retrofit by definition, but a software update from an existing Business Nav to a Professional Nav.

There should be a way to program individual components in DIS without entering a VIN number and being forced to be constrained by it...

[Booster4075]

There is....but you have to change the vehicle order (VO). It defines what the car is equipped with and programs it based on that equipment. If it is modified, progman will go ahead and program the car based on that info. Seems like dealers either aren't comfortable or have the know-how to create a VO, so they put in a Puma request and have HQ do it and send it back to them.

I keep seeing the "Chinese" ops on ebay...but they range from $1200/up... but it would be nice to have my own SSS to screw around with the software myself. Apparently, if you can get a hold of the Ops head (the optical part), you can kind of piece the system together, but it still sounds like a nightmare putting together and making it work.

The business to professional nav retrofit path was created for those of us outside the US that want to do that retrofit. It's weird though, since business nav and the RAD2 radio are M-Ask, that retrofit in itself is a conversion to CCC.

Technic- I'm not sure if the HU's make simultaneous analog/digital output or if they switch back and forth. However, you are right - the programming is what it takes to tell it which amp/system you have and how to work appropriately. In my case, the SSS couldn't even talk to the CCC because it was specifically looking for a RAD2/M-ask system. Weird.