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      01-09-2020, 04:49 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Please know I'm only trying to help. Wishing you the best.
That's how I am taking it. I think I will adjust my approach opening the meeting by stating this is what I want to do with my tech wiring:

1. Reliable WiFi everywhere (I use wired backhaul for my mesh)
2. Wired security system with smartphone access to arm/disarm
3. Do not need any smart home stuff beyond security system access

That's all I need. Then I will sit and listen. Shouldn't take long to figure out if he wants to help or sell.
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      01-10-2020, 04:55 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
Interesting...thanks for the insight.

Yeah, I've deployed/managed Ubiquiti Unifi products in a corporate environment as well. Super frustrating to get consistent, as you mentioned. Meraki is much more user friendly but also prohibitively expensive.

Will check into the others you mentioned though...much appreciated!
Have you considered Aruba Networks Instant Access Points? I've deployed a few and they're pretty easy to get up and running. The IAPs need to be connected to each other over some sort of local network. They'll peer into each other and elect one of the APs as the master virtual controller. You can also define which one is the master and which one is the secondary. The cluster will also work in a wireless mesh setup. You just have to configure each IAP via a wired connection first before committing the changes. Due to obvious reasons, the wireless mesh/backhaul is done over the 5GHz radio while the client side is serviced by 2.4.

The cool thing about the IAPs is they can pre reprovisioned as campus APs if you find the need to add a physical controller.
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      01-10-2020, 05:14 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethwas View Post
I've been reading through this, and as someone who works in this industry, I can make some comments. And again this isn't for a data center, just a home use with your basic smarthome stuff.

first, lets discuss copper v fiber.
The only time you run fiber is if you are running distances longer than copper can handle.
Depending on the quality of your switches and bends in the cable this can be 2-300'.
For most homes you won't hit this limitation, and in the truly large stuff (no longer the homes of mere mortals) you just put another rack to link back to the first over fiber, but you always run copper to each piece of equipment.
There is no advantage in real world residential use in terms of bandwidth or latency of fiber. (this is like asking which is heavier, a pound of bricks or a pound of feathers).
I agree and have stated in this thread fiber in a residential setting is useless and a waste of money. However, I mentioned the use of single mode fiber in one of my posts. The use of single mode fiber is advantageous for the person that is awash with cash and wants to ensure they're as future proof as possible. So far in the many years I've been in the business, single mode fiber has held up to the test of time in being able to support each successive speed protocol. But as I said, deploying single mode fiber is ridiculously expensive and a home user won't leverage the fastest speed support it would provide.

Quote:
Second, same issue with cat5e or 6. You won't realize any difference. Your quality of terminations will have a larger impact on performance than the cable itself. I would only recommend cat-6 if there's no financial hurt in doing so. It's more complicated to pull and devices in a home do not take advantage of cat-6's improvements over cat5e. Still, if your source finds them to be equally priced go cat6.
Agree quality terminations are important from just a fundamental data transmission stand point. But for people installing new cabling now, there's no reason not use Cat 6, 6e, or 6a. I keep recommending the use of 6a as it has the highest bandwidth rating for any of the Cat6 cables and will give a person the biggest chance to be able to support a possible next step speed standard above 10 Gig. So this brings to question why would one put in any of the Cat6 variants if 1 Gig is the de facto standard? That's because 10Gig is starting to get to the point where the power home user can afford it now. Linus of Linus Tech Tips did a video on putting in 10 Gig in his home. From soup to nuts, the total cash out lay for him to get 10 Gig up and running was about $800 to $900. Not outrageously expensive. Apple's desktop products have been shipping with 10GbaseT already included for some time now. I only expect the factory adoption rate to increase in the near future.

Quote:
Lastly is what to wire, and the answer is everything but your phones. Ideally you should not have any piece of equipment that sits in your house on wifi. Make wifi devices the exception no the rule. Every PC, printer, TV, refrigerator, smart speaker, whatever, should all be wired.
That just leaves tablets/phones and laptops riding the wave. Plus the occasional thermostat.
Most important is to not install 2.4GHz wifi or purchase any device that is limited to that (stick to 5ghz). Most home access points have both bands, turn the 2.4 band off. Your devices and neighbors will thank you. This will have a much larger real world benefit than deciding cat5 or 6, or fiber/copper.
Because 5ghz has a considerably shorter range than 2.4 you will need a proper mesh setup (with wired backhaul) that has access points in every common area (if this were a hotel, I'd suggest an access point in every room or every other room depending on size, with the power of the radio to be as low as realistic so that the wifi bubble of one does not interfere with the other). Do not run 'extenders' under any circumstances.
Even for someone that plans and has every room wired, there are situations where the best laid plans go awry. Changes to how you furnish a home could make connecting those devices a challenge. And more and more connected devices are jettisoning the wired port. Wireless isn't so bad if it's planned properly with the proper equipment. The mindset is turning around when you have Federal agencies which traditionally have said absolutely no wireless either considering their use or have already implemented it. I've worked with a few very secure Federal facilities which are now running wireless. Also, the push to expand the wireless use has now moved into the classified space where there's been proof of concepts and tests of using wireless up to the Secret level layering in enhanced security methods.

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Finally cameras. For ease of installation, get analog. There is zero programming this way. Just plug in the cameras at each end.
However, if you want the fancy stuff, you go IP, but each camera has to be individually programmed and you need to run a separate power over ethernet network for cameras (do not run them on your network with your other equipment, the video packets interfere with other data traffic).
It is for that reason, especially in instances of 16 cameras or fewer, that it's just less of a headache and easier to troubleshoot if you run analog. There's just less stuff to go wrong.
From a footage/recording standpoint, real world, you won't notice a difference. The software that manages the recordings is more important than whether the source was an analog or digital feed.

Seth
I'll just have to disagree with you on this one. I've set up my 5 camera Hikvision system with zero prior experience and had no problems getting everything working correctly. But I do agree with the software being an important aspect. But the quality of the cameras is equally if not slightly more important. If the source of your video is crap, having the best software out there won't fix this.
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      01-12-2020, 10:40 PM   #114
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I hear what you're saying. And I'm certainly not disagreeing with you anywhere, I just want to add a thought without going off topic.


The speeds and capabilities of the ethernet wiring has become irrelevant. It's current capabilities 'today' are so far beyond what is actually used to the point the various categories have become a distinction without difference. In other words, an HDTV won't work any better or worse on one or the other since it's just not making any meaningful demands on the cable.
After all, an HDTV stream is like 1-5M tops or 0.1% of gigabit capabilities. A 4K stream is maybe 25M tops or 2.5%. And because it's a cable, it's not sharing traffic among many devices since you can only plug one thing in, so there will never be additional load.

However, what ethernet does do, is route internal traffic/congestion far better than wifi. You have exponentially more bandwidth and overhead on ethernet than you do with wifi, and this impacts everything on the network. Most important you have basically no latency (why the gamers and traders don't use wifi).

So with that in mind, in a modern home, the perspective going in is ethernet is just used strictly as a way to get networked devices off the wifi. Wifi becomes a crutch for devices you simply can't connect. Ethernet is not something that gets congested any more, however wireless gets congested still.
So if you have a TV, wire it. They don't move. If you have a nightstand speaker, wire it, because it doesn't move (hide the jack behind the bed so you are flexible). Same for printers (especially printers, they choke wifi the worst) and any other device you can think of that just sits in its place etc. (desktop PC comes to mind or gaming system).

The more devices you can eliminate from the wireless the cleaner the service to the remaining devices that have no option but to be on wifi.
As you mention, more devices are going wifi so any approach towards making the wifi as clean as possible is the best way to 'future proof' the house.

Seth
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      01-12-2020, 11:23 PM   #115
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I'm of the mindset that if you're wiring new why waste the opportunity to ensure you don't have to go back into the walls at a later date to update the cabling? Again, the cost differential between Cat5e and Cat6 (even Cat6a) shouldn't be that big a difference over the labor involved in putting in the cabling in the first place. We all know 10Gig is here and a set standard. We all know what is required to run 10Gig over twisted pair copper is a minimum of Cat6.

And it's interesting how there's so much bias against wireless. Again, wireless implemented correctly should not impact most usage in the home network. Unified wireless systems are now easily accessible by the lay person. And with the implementation of features such as MU-MIMO, these help mitigate wireless network congestion.
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      01-13-2020, 10:56 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Again, wireless implemented correctly should not impact most usage in the home network.
true - but how often is that the case
(I kid I kid)
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      01-13-2020, 12:40 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethwas View Post
true - but how often is that the case
(I kid I kid)
Well, unfortunately, what you've said in kidding is pretty par for the course. Many home users think having the strongest wireless signal from their router is the best solution. I see this all the time over at a tech forum I'm a part of.
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      01-13-2020, 06:05 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethwas View Post
So with that in mind, in a modern home, the perspective going in is ethernet is just used strictly as a way to get networked devices off the wifi. Wifi becomes a crutch for devices you simply can't connect. Ethernet is not something that gets congested any more, however wireless gets congested still.
So if you have a TV, wire it. They don't move. If you have a nightstand speaker, wire it, because it doesn't move (hide the jack behind the bed so you are flexible). Same for printers (especially printers, they choke wifi the worst) and any other device you can think of that just sits in its place etc. (desktop PC comes to mind or gaming system).

The more devices you can eliminate from the wireless the cleaner the service to the remaining devices that have no option but to be on wifi.
Yeah man! This is my philosophy too. I've had more than a few people look at me a little sideways but I still go with "if it can be wired, wire it."

Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
I'm of the mindset that if you're wiring new why waste the opportunity to ensure you don't have to go back into the walls at a later date to update the cabling?
Not to disagree but to provide a point of perspective; I wired my house in the early 2000's with then-state-of-the-art Cat 5e. People asked me why I didn't run fiber. Almost twenty years of bandwidth explosion later and I still don't regret not running fiber.

I totally agree that if Cat 6e is a small percentage more than Cat 6, spend the money. Maybe the rule of thumb should be "run the best ethernet available at a reasonable price."
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      01-13-2020, 06:29 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Yeah man! This is my philosophy too. I've had more than a few people look at me a little sideways but I still go with "if it can be wired, wire it."

Not to disagree but to provide a point of perspective; I wired my house in the early 2000's with then-state-of-the-art Cat 5e. People asked me why I didn't run fiber. Almost twenty years of bandwidth explosion later and I still don't regret not running fiber.

I totally agree that if Cat 6e is a small percentage more than Cat 6, spend the money. Maybe the rule of thumb should be "run the best ethernet available at a reasonable price."
To clarify the quote you're referencing of one of my posts, I never advocated running fiber in a home. I have however been pushing for people who are putting in net new cabling to get at least Cat6 put in. I would say it'll be better to put in Cat6a.
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      01-13-2020, 07:27 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Yeah man! This is my philosophy too. I've had more than a few people look at me a little sideways but I still go with "if it can be wired, wire it."

Not to disagree but to provide a point of perspective; I wired my house in the early 2000's with then-state-of-the-art Cat 5e. People asked me why I didn't run fiber. Almost twenty years of bandwidth explosion later and I still don't regret not running fiber.

I totally agree that if Cat 6e is a small percentage more than Cat 6, spend the money. Maybe the rule of thumb should be "run the best ethernet available at a reasonable price."
To clarify the quote you're referencing of one of my posts, I never advocated running fiber in a home. I have however been pushing for people who are putting in net new cabling to get at least Cat6 put in. I would say it'll be better to put in Cat6a.
Why not 7 or 8? I ran 7, wasn't much more for a three story townhome, which didn't have any super long runs, but gg45 connectors work fine with all of my stuff.
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      01-13-2020, 09:58 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Why not 7 or 8? I ran 7, wasn't much more for a three story townhome, which didn't have any super long runs, but gg45 connectors work fine with all of my stuff.
If you feel you want to install Cat7, then it's your choice. I say Cat6a because the fastest Ethernet protocol running over Category/twisted pair copper is 10Gig. I have not seen any discussion or draft IEEE RFCs looking to create the next fastest tier speed to operate over twisted pair copper. So we don't know what the next spec will require in terms of physical wiring.

In addition, it took quite a few years for 1 Gig to become the main stream standard. 1 Gig is still plenty good for most home users. By the time 10Gig achieves the same main stream status as 1 Gig, it'll be many many years. But that's my own opinion.

So if I feel that 10 Gig will be some time out as something which is main stream, why bother installing Cat6 to Cat6a? Because it sets you up in the position where you have a choice and the move to 10 Gig would just be an equipment upgrade. Equipment upgrades are far easier to do than physical wiring upgrades.
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      02-04-2020, 06:27 PM   #122
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UPDATE:

If anyone is still following, I kept it simple. I put 2x Cat6 and 1xRG6 in all rooms. I also added a 2" conduit running from the basement panel to the attic. That's it. They priced out an alarm system, but it was stupid expensive compared to simplisafe, so I passed on that.
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      02-06-2020, 05:22 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corn18 View Post
UPDATE:

If anyone is still following, I kept it simple. I put 2x Cat6 and 1xRG6 in all rooms. I also added a 2" conduit running from the basement panel to the attic. That's it. They priced out an alarm system, but it was stupid expensive compared to simplisafe, so I passed on that.
Thanks for following up!
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      02-07-2020, 12:22 AM   #124
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So nothing pulled on the exterior for IP security cameras?
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      02-07-2020, 08:07 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by P1et View Post
So nothing pulled on the exterior for IP security cameras?
I'd assume that the attic conduit will take care of that.
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      02-07-2020, 09:53 AM   #126
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UPDATE:

If anyone is still following, I kept it simple
simple is the best
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      02-07-2020, 10:01 AM   #127
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So nothing pulled on the exterior for IP security cameras?
Negative. I use Nest outdoor cams and just put outlets in the eves for them.
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      02-07-2020, 11:30 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corn18 View Post
UPDATE:

If anyone is still following, I kept it simple. I put 2x Cat6 and 1xRG6 in all rooms. I also added a 2" conduit running from the basement panel to the attic. That's it. They priced out an alarm system, but it was stupid expensive compared to simplisafe, so I passed on that.
Well played. Keep your wiring diagrams or drawings or whatever you have, in case you need them some day.
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