[specialsauce]

Speaking of Wal-Mart one strikes me as a jack of all trades master of none type product being compared to separate dedicated full featured products. You always save money combining everything in one but always you sacrifice stuff too.

I want a nice looking functional boost gauge. I have not seen anything nicer or more accurate than the P3 vent mount gauge and as a bonus it can do map switching with 4 maps and confirmation. Personally I'm just going to pick one map and leave it there but that is a nice feature. It's made by people who know boost gauges and how to do it right.

I want the ability to read codes if I have any problems and figure out WTF to do without taking my car to the dealer and praying. That means being able to diagnose problems with out other mods installed if need be and having a way to pick what I want to datalog and look at. Not just hope whatever I am getting out of it is enough to figure out what I need. The only tool that does this that I know of is the BT tool and as a bonus it does a bunch of other stuff and MOST IMPORTANTLY to me has a team of engineers behind it making continual improvements dedicated to diagnostics.

I am never planning on adding downpipes but if I do I'm going to want to have them work without a tune also in case I need to go to the dealer with them on. It costs $300 to remove them so its not worth doing it every time I want to go in. Having the codes blocked from a separate device gives slightly more peace of mind knowing when the tune is removed for service you will stay code free.

To get the very best features your are looking at $1,100 for the JB3 with BT and P3 or $1,630 for V4 with BT and P3. Then look at it from the other end of someone who wants minimal features. In that case you are looking at $700 for JB3 with BT or $945 for V4. So the price savings is $245 minimum and up to $530 if you want the best. I know you can get the cheaper version of the JB3 and skip BT but this is apples to apples for the same basic functionality and install time.

[INNOVATE_1]

Actually, this thread is pretty funny Some of you guys ride Mike/Shivs wood so hard, that you actually start to dislike the owners who use the opposing tune.. Ie; this dude acting like a b*tch name calling people.. In all reality both are great tunes period! Everyone crying about the price, warranty, hidden codes, raw data, etc... Who gives a damn, you play with fire be ready to get burned!! At the end of the day, after all the crying about the better tune and all the other mods installed to our rides (I'll make this easy for the bias OP and maybe even save some time on this "comparison") These cars are not FAST, they're quick for what they are and that's it. Power for power both tunes are similar, the true comparison should be of Long Term Reliability on the tune itself, meaning 2, 3+ yrs of use and not someones weekend opinion..

My .02

Back to the crying... Lol

JM

[Syndicategt]

^ Amen!

[Tiago@VRSF]

Originally Posted by specialsauce

Speaking of Wal-Mart one strikes me as a jack of all trades master of none type product being compared to separate dedicated full featured products. You always save money combining everything in one but always you sacrifice stuff too.

I want a nice looking functional boost gauge. I have not seen anything nicer or more accurate than the P3 vent mount gauge and as a bonus it can do map switching with 4 maps and confirmation. Personally I'm just going to pick one map and leave it there but that is a nice feature. It's made by people who know boost gauges and how to do it right.

Nobody said the boost gauge feature was a replacement for an acutal boost gauge. Shiv even mentioned in the thread that it was just so you have an idea of what's going on which is better than nothing. Considering you aren't paying extra for it, it's an EXTRA feature.

I want the ability to read codes if I have any problems and figure out WTF to do without taking my car to the dealer and praying. That means being able to diagnose problems with out other mods installed if need be and having a way to pick what I want to datalog and look at. Not just hope whatever I am getting out of it is enough to figure out what I need. The only tool that does this that I know of is the BT tool and as a bonus it does a bunch of other stuff and MOST IMPORTANTLY to me has a team of engineers behind it making continual improvements dedicated to diagnostics.

Unless you're going to be fixing said car, diagnostic tools are not going to be useful. I had the VAG-COM tool that I paid $300 for when I was driving my B7 A4 and I used it twice. Once to read a code and the other time it was to clear a code which popped up again. After reading the code, I brought it to a Indy shop who already had the tool, read the code, charged me a diagnostic fee and fixed the problem. Knowing what the code is in an unrelated module isn't going to magicaly save you from having to bring it to the dealer and if there really is a problem with the car, knowing what the code is won't fix it.

I am never planning on adding downpipes but if I do I'm going to want to have them work without a tune also in case I need to go to the dealer with them on. It costs $300 to remove them so its not worth doing it every time I want to go in. Having the codes blocked from a separate device gives slightly more peace of mind knowing when the tune is removed for service you will stay code free.

Going to the dealer with aftermarket downpipes installed = warranty void. If you want your dealer to void your powertrain warranty, leaving your downpipes on is a great way to do it. 95% of the time your car goes in for any problems or service they'll put your car on a lift and ANY & EVERY BMW tech will spot aftermarket downpipes. Also the fact that they can see that "separate device" installed directly into the wiring harness could be grounds for them to deny your warranty if something in the electrical system fails.

To get the very best features your are looking at $1,100 for the JB3 with BT and P3 or $1,630 for V4 with BT and P3. Then look at it from the other end of someone who wants minimal features. In that case you are looking at $700 for JB3 with BT or $945 for V4. So the price savings is $245 minimum and up to $530 if you want the best. I know you can get the cheaper version of the JB3 and skip BT but this is apples to apples for the same basic functionality and install time.

That is not an apples to apples comparison at all. Your overinflated need for the BT cable isn't necessary for 90% of people on this forum who don't do their own repair work. Most of these cars are still under warranty, hence the reason to not care when a random module throws a code since the dealer will take care of it for free. Even if you were out of warranty, the tool is useless unless you are the one doing the diagnosing & repair, which again, not a lot of people on here are doing. If you diagnose the problem and bring it to a shop, they are going to diagnose it again, rendering your diagnosis useless to begin with. The only difference is the fact that you'll know the code that's being thrown (not the problem, just the code) before the dealer/shop does, which to me is useless.

The boost gauge argument doesn't make sense either. You're assuming people need a boost gauge which is completely untrue. You might as well throw in Meth kits, intakes and exhausts into the equation since we're talking about random mods not related to a tune....

Either way, the V4 has a functioning boost gauge whereas the JB3 does not. Does that mean you can go out and sell your boost gauge? No but the fact that they give you the included features as well as the tune is a step up from a device that's just a tune and a bunch of add ons.

[Tiago@VRSF]

Originally Posted by 2V4NOW

Actually, this thread is pretty funny Some of you guys ride Mike/Shivs wood so hard, that you actually start to dislike the owners who use the opposing tune.. Ie; this dude acting like a b*tch name calling people.. In all reality both are great tunes period! Everyone crying about the price, warranty, hidden codes, raw data, etc... Who gives a damn, you play with fire be ready to get burned!! At the end of the day, after all the crying about the better tune and all the other mods installed to our rides (I'll make this easy for the bias OP and maybe even save some time on this "comparison") These cars are not FAST, they're quick for what they are and that's it. Power for power both tunes are similar, the true comparison should be of Long Term Reliability on the tune itself, meaning 2, 3+ yrs of use and not someones weekend opinion..

My .02

Back to the crying... Lol

JM

They are just tunes but the comparison isn't really about the tune anymore. It's more of the included features/benefits of the tune. If you do a few datalogs at whatever selected map you can determine the long term effects of the tune by the AFR, timing and knock.

[specialsauce]

Originally Posted by tvieira24

I am just saying I want a nice boost gauge either way so that is a factor for me. I haven't seen the V4 gauge yet, just a video showing degrees C on the dash but instead displaying 12.0 C for 12psi and so forth. I know its just being done up now but it looked pretty ghetto to me. If they make it say 12.2 PSI and move fast like a real gauge it might be more of an option for me.

With the warranty and downpipes by your logic why even have a way to clear codes if you are going to have downpipes then as you have no warranty.

If you remove boost gauge then the price is $700 vs. $945. For the $700 I get better diagnostics but worse dash interface. If you add the vent gauge to the JB3 also but not the V4 then its $1100 vs $945 and you get better diagnostics and the nicest looking boost gauge I've ever seen for only $150 more than V4.

[Tiago@VRSF]

Originally Posted by specialsauce

I am just saying I want a nice boost gauge either way so that is a factor for me. I haven't seen the V4 gauge yet, just a video showing degrees C on the dash but instead displaying 12.0 C for 12psi and so forth. I know its just being done up now but it looked pretty ghetto to me. If they make it say 12.2 PSI and move fast like a real gauge it might be more of an option for me.

With the warranty and downpipes by your logic why even have a way to clear codes if you are going to have downpipes then as you have no warranty.

If you remove boost gauge then the price is $700 vs. $945. For the $700 I get better diagnostics but worse dash interface. If you add the vent gauge to the JB3 also but not the V4 then its $1100 vs $945 and you get better diagnostics and the nicest looking boost gauge I've ever seen for only $150 more than V4.

I'd remove any and all mods related to my power train warranty before bring the car to the dealer.

Either way if you add the boost gauge to both they cancel each other out price wise so it's senseless to debate.

I'd also prefer an actual analog sweeping boost gauge whether it's mechanical or electrical to be honest, even if the in dash boost gauge worked as well as an aftermarket digital boost gauge.

[INNOVATE_1]

Originally Posted by tvieira24

They are just tunes but the comparison isn't really about the tune anymore. It's more of the included features/benefits of the tune. If you do a few datalogs at whatever selected map you can determine the long term effects of the tune by the AFR, timing and knock.

Really? I must of misread the 123 posts before mine... Silly me

You should make a new thread (mods make it a sticky) and let everyone know what the long term effects and reliability will be with each map in a few years... Why didn't anyone think of that?? Ohh wait... They can't see the future

Carry on... Lol!!

JM

[gaspony]

Originally Posted by pcmike

Too busy driving/enjoying the V4 to bother to make a list. Why don't you just read the forum (or do you not like reading about reality)? The things that justify the $150 price difference are being posted about everyday.

That is the point, there is never a list of why the procede is so awesome. It is all little snipets in various posts. I need to ride in a procede car to experience the smoothness. Honestly 2.0 is smoother than my stock car. I even reset the transmission before I installed the JB3 and the JB3 is still smoother. The main thing that would influence me is the long term outcome of how peoples car's do with each tune. Unfortunately there will probably never be a comparison of that. Maybe we can get a thread going of what has happened with your car and how many miles after one installed the tune that the problem occured. I can start a thread and this would give everybody a good idea of what is happening with each tune and if one tune or the other is having more problems maybe that would be a good way for people to decide which is better. The list I see so far is:

Power: JB3 slightly better
Smoothness: V4 slightly better
code clearing: BT tool better
transfer code clearing from one car to another cars: V4 better
data log: equal
Software interface: I don't know, JB3 is pretty cool
User ajustability: JB3 (more maps)
Valet: v4 better
Wood Riding of the tuner: I'll pass

[bmwzimmer]

How about factoring in resale value?

[pcmike]

Way to make a comparison that is only good for probably 1% of buyers in the market. Pretty pointless.

Originally Posted by specialsauce

To get the very best features your are looking at $1,100 for the JB3 with BT and P3 or $1,630 for V4 with BT and P3. Then look at it from the other end of someone who wants minimal features. In that case you are looking at $700 for JB3 with BT or $945 for V4. So the price savings is $245 minimum and up to $530 if you want the best. I know you can get the cheaper version of the JB3 and skip BT but this is apples to apples for the same basic functionality and install time.

[pcmike]

So now trying to integrate a boost gauge into the already existing dash via CANbus and making do with what you have is now termed ghetto?! A P3 vent gauge isn't ghetto? What the heck? In my opinion anything that PHYSICALLY changes the inside dash of the car from stock to boy-racer-esque is pretty damn ghetto.

Originally Posted by specialsauce

I am just saying I want a nice boost gauge either way so that is a factor for me. I haven't seen the V4 gauge yet, just a video showing degrees C on the dash but instead displaying 12.0 C for 12psi and so forth. I know its just being done up now but it looked pretty ghetto to me. If they make it say 12.2 PSI and move fast like a real gauge it might be more of an option for me.

With the warranty and downpipes by your logic why even have a way to clear codes if you are going to have downpipes then as you have no warranty.

If you remove boost gauge then the price is $700 vs. $945. For the $700 I get better diagnostics but worse dash interface. If you add the vent gauge to the JB3 also but not the V4 then its $1100 vs $945 and you get better diagnostics and the nicest looking boost gauge I've ever seen for only $150 more than V4.

[cn555ic]

I will agree with you on certain points but p3 vent gauge is far cry away from being ghetto and u saying this takes a lot of validity out of your comments making u not really as knowledgeable as you think you are in the modding world

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by gaspony

That is the point, there is never a list of why the procede is so awesome. It is all little snipets in various posts. I need to ride in a procede car to experience the smoothness. Honestly 2.0 is smoother than my stock car. I even reset the transmission before I installed the JB3 and the JB3 is still smoother. The main thing that would influence me is the long term outcome of how peoples car's do with each tune. Unfortunately there will probably never be a comparison of that. Maybe we can get a thread going of what has happened with your car and how many miles after one installed the tune that the problem occured. I can start a thread and this would give everybody a good idea of what is happening with each tune and if one tune or the other is having more problems maybe that would be a good way for people to decide which is better. The list I see so far is:

Power: JB3 slightly better
Smoothness: V4 slightly better
code clearing: BT tool better
transfer code clearing from one car to another cars: V4 better
data log: equal
Software interface: I don't know, JB3 is pretty cool
User ajustability: JB3 (more maps)
Valet: v4 better
Wood Riding of the tuner: I'll pass

The JB3 has proven to be very reliable but keep in mind it has many more users than any other tune out there. So in raw numbers I'm sure you'll find more people with rare headaches and for some reason JB3 users really like to push the boundaries. The nice thing is you have around two years and tens of millions of customer miles by which to evaluate it. That was my point with the V4 in another thread. Its basically an entirely new setup so will take some time to determine the overall reliability IMHO.

Also on the valet mode I don't use the feature often but seems the JB3 method is easier to use. No need to plan ahead of time or have anything special loaded on the tune, just push the gas down for 5-6 seconds before handing the valet the key and the tune is turned off completely even down to the stock air/fuel ratios. There is also a new cold-start mode in the new beta maps that is pretty neat.

Mike

[cn555ic]

What's the new function for the cold start feature? Is it enabling boost until the car warms up to operating temps?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

What's the new function for the cold start feature? Is it enabling boost until the car warms up to operating temps?

The JB3 has always reduced boost for really hot or cold oil/water temperatures, but this new feature is a little different. Basically it turns the tune off all together (map 0) until you drive around and press the gas down 60%. For the JB3 map 0 means 100% stock. So when the car is cold or you want it disabled just drive normally keeping throttle below 60% and the tune will stay off. Then if/when you get on the gas it will kick over to your selected performance map. When you turn the car off it will swap back to 0 again. The feature is off by default but you can turn it on in the 3/16 or newer firmware by setting future use to 50. If people like the feature BMS said they will make the throttle input % user adjustable as well.

Mike

[Belarus]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The JB3 has always reduced boost for really hot or cold oil/water temperatures, but this new feature is a little different. Basically it turns the tune off all together (map 0) until you drive around and press the gas down 60%. For the JB3 map 0 means 100% stock. So when the car is cold or you want it disabled just drive normally keeping throttle below 60% and the tune will stay off. Then if/when you get on the gas it will kick over to your selected performance map. When you turn the car off it will swap back to 0 again. The feature is off by default but you can turn it on in the 3/16 or newer firmware by setting future use to 50. If people like the feature BMS said they will make the throttle input % user adjustable as well.

Mike

You'll need to show me, next time I see you...

Also can you post a link if there is one to info on all the new features introduced in 2.0 and will be available with 2.0 final release... since it's all over the place and PITA to search for.

Thanks

[cn555ic]

That's pretty cool feature.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Belarus

You'll need to show me, next time I see you...

Also can you post a link if there is one to info on all the new features introduced in 2.0 and will be available with 2.0 final release... since it's all over the place and PITA to search for.

Thanks

BMS has a sticky on their forum for the latest that they keep really up to date. Once a firmware has been around for a few week and has shown to be stable and problem free I add it to my site in the JB3 software download section.

Mike

[Belarus]

Just to throw some fuel on the fired up debate as it always becomes between JB3 and Procede camps...

[Belarus]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

BMS has a sticky on their forum for the latest that they keep really up to date. Once a firmware has been around for a few week and has shown to be stable and problem free I add it to my site in the JB3 software download section.

Mike

.... forgot about it.... Thanks

[Mr. 5]

This is pretty cool but I'll correct a couple things about the GIAC flash:

Actuall flash time (install time) is a half an hour.
Dealer diagnostic invisibility should be marked with an X. It is invisible to the dealer.
Also the 12.1 at 115 should be updated to 11.8 at 116.
And it is built in the USA. (written in the USA)