[alextremo]

Shiv/Adrian,

Do you have the same concerns for PROcede users that BMS have stated with the JB3 about running in excess of 17psi, assuming you have the supporting mods?

In the past I've seen the suggestion for dyno/qtr mile glory runs was to up the boost limit to 20 and let autotune do it's thing. I'm wondering if this still the case, and you're confident in the PROcede timing control/safety features that you don't suggest we dial anything down based on these recent engine failures.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu

Actually as a habbit, we generally try not to cause so much detonation that we are testing the knock retard boundaries of the stock system... hence why we try to tune this out with CPS. I am guessing BMS has also not purposely induced rediculous knock in a search for the capability of the stock knock control (though they should since they rely on its ability).

I do not know that the limit is (but there is one unless you can run -infinity knock retard), because I would not test it on my or another's car. What I do know is that with the JB3 the DME thinks the engine is running 7psi of boost, but in this case it is running 18psi. Without octane enhancement we would need about around 0.25 to 0.5 degree per 1psi of boost of retard. So for 11psi more boost, that is 2.5 - 5 degrees retard. With the JB3 this is all done via the knock control. With the Procede it is not. Therefore whatever that limit is... with the JB3 you just lost 2.5-5 degrees of its usable range. Too bad if it is say 10, you used 5 up for the tuning mechanism, and you get get the combustion chambers nice and hot so you need another 5 or more?? These numbers I use are for illustration only.

Adrian

This is again false. Are you familiar with how your system is tuned on meth? With 18psi + meth your customers are running ZERO CPS OFFSET negating any difference between the two approaches. Many are running close to zero offset even without meth.

Mike

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by themyst

Not to hijack, or bash one tune over another, but if I'm not mistaken, the JB3 failsafe integration uses the +12V trigger vs the 0-5V flow level reading the Procede uses. Wouldn't the Procede approach be safer for the end user in that the car reduces boost based on the maximum flow reducing versus a minimum threshold?

Being that some setups flow in excess of 1000ml/min, waiting for the failsafe to kick in by reaching the flow threshold would mean that the car isn't getting the full flow into the charge, leaving the end user to assume their car is running properly.

I'll provide an example - The meth flow indicators were "blinking" which indicates that I was flowing meth, but not at the expected full output. At this time, I found that my tank was dislodged from the wall and after tinkering and repriming found that I had air in the line. Now, I am not brave enough to run 19-20psi daily driver (I do run 17 - 17.5) imagine if this partial reduction of meth occurred on the +12V trigger failsafe setup of the JB3. You'd be left assuming everything is running fine yet you are not getting the expected flow level which leaves the end user at risk, especially at the extremely high boost levels.

I'm far from an expert, but just providing feedback on my observations.

It depends where you set the flow window. It should be set high enough that it triggers the minimum allowable methanol flow for the intended map. Using an analog input is a better approach and the G4 is configured that way, but the binary trigger is more than safe when properly setup.

Mike

[TakeOne]

Originally Posted by mycoupe

After just reading this whole thread, I feel like the vishnu and BMS boys need to be banned from posting in non-forsale threads. They do nothing but argue and go way off topic. Don't think you went off topic do you? Well, if you tried telling us what caused the engine failure or argued, ya went off topic. We don't have the info yet, and you're just wasting interwebz space and our time. kthanxbi

not that i enjoy the tune bashing, but did you honestly not expect it?
Usually the original poster of a thread will contribute to it. Notice how the original poster hasn't said anything in the first 6 pages?
Just copy/paste and split. I'm sure it was just for everyones common good and did not expect it to turnout like this at all

[kjrulz]

how about everyone stop whining about them arguing? Let them discuss it so we can see what comes of it.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Are you serious about not copying Procede.... On one thread you openly post pictures of the new JB 11ty which openly parades the level to which you go to to copy the Procede (same connector, lookalike extrusion, same relays, and I bet the pinouts will also be the same when released) and now you take the high ground that nobody would do that. Of course a JB version of Autotune, bogfix, CAN logging target, isolated boost control has also never been mentioned as plans... for which Procede was the first to do? Seriously, I expect people to copy our product features as we set the pace in this market, but to copy our look and feel and even the parts we use when there is endless ways to do this is really shouting out "We are copying and we are proud of it", so don't play innocent now. And those comments about the connector and extrusion being selected with no regard to Procede... what a joke. There is plenty of un-Procede like options that could have been taken!!

The JB3 was the first to offer a single connector box featuring AMP/TYCO connectors. BMS simply called TYCO and asked for a suggested connector with the dimensions, contacts, and current rating required, and the new connector was their suggestion. No doubt you also called TYCO and received the same suggestion at some point. Inexpensive aluminum enclosures are the obvious choice as well although I have suggested to BMS they color theirs black to avoid confusion. On items the like the relays I can't comment although BMS mentioned to me one difference between their new PRO box and yours is they were relaying every altered I/O so the system can go in a true code free bypass mode if power is cut, firmware corrupted, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but your setup only has a bypass on the two analog channels boost and fuel pressure, but not crank position, speedometer out, secondary o2 sensors, etc.

Mike

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by TakeOne

not that i enjoy the tune bashing, but did you honestly not expect it?
Usually the original poster of a thread will contribute to it. Notice how the original poster hasn't said anything in the first 6 pages?
Just copy/paste and split. I'm sure it was just for everyones common good and did not expect it to turnout like this at all

Terry is banned from posting here so someone had to post it, for the common good! How can I honestly contribute if it wasn't my car, I was hoping the person who owns the car would pop in and give us more details... better than hearing it from his tuner's mouth.

[I335]

These threads are actually my favorite. This is a car enthusiast forum so why in the world are some of you guys suggesting that the bantering stop? This is not a "let's all play nice all the time" type of forum - how boring would that be? All this "my car is faster than yours" and "my tune is better than yours" stuff is all GREAT stuff! It's entertaining, informative, and directly in line with what car enthusiasts are all about - extracting more performance and looks out of their cars and bragging, complimenting, and yes, arguing about it - it's the stuff that makes the car enthusiasts' world go round. Think about it - every time something like this comes up the tuners come out and we all learn a little more. Cars and Competition both start with the same letter for a very good reason because for us enthusiasts, that's what it's all about!

With the number of cars running hi power tunes and meth, the probability of at least a couple of them "having an accident", is VERY high - especially given that the average tune consumer understands the tunes about as well as the average person understands stem cell cloning. And the more power-greedy we get, the higher the probability we're going to run into trouble. If we're not living on the edge just a little bit, we're not living at all...

I personally love all the back and forth banter - reminds me of the 60s and 70s "my car is faster than yours" challenges. This place would be complacent and dare I say perhaps even a bit lame without Terry and Shiv and I respect both of them for what they can do and for their wealth of tuning knowledge. Keep up the great work guys - fun stuff.

[kjrulz]

Originally Posted by I335

These threads are actually my favorite. This is a car enthusiast forum so why in the world are some of you guys suggesting that the bantering stop? This is not a "let's all play nice all the time" type of forum - how boring would that be? All this "my car is faster than yours" and "my tune is better than yours" stuff is all GREAT stuff! It's entertaining, informative, and directly in line with what car enthusiasts are all about - extracting more performance and looks out of their cars and bragging, complimenting, and yes, arguing about it - it's the stuff that makes the car enthusiasts' world go round. Think about it - every time something like this comes up the tuners come out and we all learn a little more. Cars and Competition both start with the same letter for a very good reason because for us enthusiasts, that's what it's all about!

With the number of cars running hi power tunes and meth, the probability of at least a couple of them "having an accident", is VERY high - especially given that the average tune consumer understands the tunes about as well as the average person understands stem cell cloning. And the more power-greedy we get, the higher the probability we're going to run into trouble. If we're not living on the edge just a little bit, we're not living at all...

I personally love all the back and forth banter - reminds me of the 60s and 70s "my car is faster than yours" challenges. This place would be complacent and dare I say perhaps even a bit lame without Terry and Shiv and I respect both of them for what they can do and for their wealth of tuning knowledge. Keep up the great work guys - fun stuff.

exactly what i said, let this play out. i want to hear as many details spilled as possible.

[IlChengis]

Originally Posted by kjrulz

how about everyone stop whining about them arguing? Let them discuss it so we can see what comes of it.

+1

More data for learning.

-Walter

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by I335

These threads are actually my favorite. This is a car enthusiast forum so why in the world are some of you guys suggesting that the bantering stop? This is not a "let's all play nice all the time" type of forum - how boring would that be? All this "my car is faster than yours" and "my tune is better than yours" stuff is all GREAT stuff! It's entertaining, informative, and directly in line with what car enthusiasts are all about - extracting more performance and looks out of their cars and bragging, complimenting, and yes, arguing about it - it's the stuff that makes the car enthusiasts' world go round. Think about it - every time something like this comes up the tuners come out and we all learn a little more. Cars and Competition both start with the same letter for a very good reason because for us enthusiasts, that's what it's all about!

With the number of cars running hi power tunes and meth, the probability of at least a couple of them "having an accident", is VERY high - especially given that the average tune consumer understands the tunes about as well as the average person understands stem cell cloning. And the more power-greedy we get, the higher the probability we're going to run into trouble. If we're not living on the edge just a little bit, we're not living at all...

I personally love all the back and forth banter - reminds me of the 60s and 70s "my car is faster than yours" challenges. This place would be complacent and dare I say perhaps even a bit lame without Terry and Shiv and I respect both of them for what they can do and for their wealth of tuning knowledge. Keep up the great work guys - fun stuff.

Originally Posted by kjrulz

exactly what i said, let this play out. i want to hear as many details spilled as possible.

Originally Posted by Treppiede

+1

More data for learning.

-Walter

+111111111111111

entertaining stuff. I dont come on here to read about all of you hugging and singing songs around a campfire. Have at it guys!

but make sure you still analyze the details once they are spilled.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by I335

These threads are actually my favorite. This is a car enthusiast forum so why in the world are some of you guys suggesting that the bantering stop? This is not a "let's all play nice all the time" type of forum - how boring would that be? All this "my car is faster than yours" and "my tune is better than yours" stuff is all GREAT stuff! It's entertaining, informative, and directly in line with what car enthusiasts are all about - extracting more performance and looks out of their cars and bragging, complimenting, and yes, arguing about it - it's the stuff that makes the car enthusiasts' world go round. Think about it - every time something like this comes up the tuners come out and we all learn a little more. Cars and Competition both start with the same letter for a very good reason because for us enthusiasts, that's what it's all about!

With the number of cars running hi power tunes and meth, the probability of at least a couple of them "having an accident", is VERY high - especially given that the average tune consumer understands the tunes about as well as the average person understands stem cell cloning. And the more power-greedy we get, the higher the probability we're going to run into trouble. If we're not living on the edge just a little bit, we're not living at all...

I personally love all the back and forth banter - reminds me of the 60s and 70s "my car is faster than yours" challenges. This place would be complacent and dare I say perhaps even a bit lame without Terry and Shiv and I respect both of them for what they can do and for their wealth of tuning knowledge. Keep up the great work guys - fun stuff.

I335 for president!!!

Dude, you got this one SPOT ON! Don't think Obama would've put it together better than this!

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by kjrulz

how about everyone stop whining about them arguing? Let them discuss it so we can see what comes of it.

I could not agree more...anyone that is saying that they are sick and tired of hearing tuning war, get out of this thread because I find it quite interesting the reading...If you guys like threads of "oh my car is running strong, look at my wonderful dyno numbers, what map should I use, which tune to get, which dps are better, what mod is better fmic or meth etc" have fun reading because they are quite boring....

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by jpsimon

Terry is banned from posting here so someone had to post it, for the common good! How can I honestly contribute if it wasn't my car, I was hoping the person who owns the car would pop in and give us more details... better than hearing it from his tuner's mouth.

Exactly. And why was he banned? Because he was taking Shiv's product, reverse engineering it, and openly posting up things on how he thought it worked to achieve what it did. Except, he was so far off and in the weeds about what he was looking at it was ridiculous.

Then, he eventually got himself banned for continually posting things that were so far off base, inciting and bashing a sponsor that they booted him forever. Good.

Since then, he started his resistor tune operation (JB+ it is now called) to sell for $40, or whatever it was, and claimed he was doing exactly what Shiv was for 1/20th the price and people were stupid for buying and supporting Shiv/Procede and they should then buy his stuff. That was part of the ban if I remember correctly.

This is why we have the banter in these threads like we do. Not because of Shiv, because of Terry since day 1 who instigated the entire tuner war. But I still don't really consider JB any kind of sophisticated tune in the same class as Shiv...no way, no how. Now Shiv just jumps in these threads to provide technical info. If some criticism of JB products is thrown in...well, I think that is important for people to read/learn. They need to understand the differences on how each works, then you can decide on which is best for you and your situation and decide. Or go with something else...free country.

I do want his CAN tool for the 2007 though from BMS! Since I have a GIAC tune, I want to look and clear codes and have other features it doesn't offer, without having to tap my ECU.

Procede is, and always will likely be the most sophisticated tune for the 335i.

Threads like this are golden, and as I335 stated in his post, people should not complain about these threads, but read and learn. Because when Shiv comes in and Mike starts posting on behalf of Terry (or Terry is just typing all of this on Mike's account likely) you can then actually learn how each of the products work and achieves what it does and who knows WTF they are really talking about when it comes to tuning the N54.

Looking forward to getting more facts related to the original TS/OP and thread topic..but the debate and facts on how these tunes work is great stuff and hope it keeps going.

[A418t81]

This thread is hilarious. Who needs Fox news and CNN spin when you've got E90post.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by alextremo

Shiv/Adrian,

Do you have the same concerns for PROcede users that BMS have stated with the JB3 about running in excess of 17psi, assuming you have the supporting mods?

In the past I've seen the suggestion for dyno/qtr mile glory runs was to up the boost limit to 20 and let autotune do it's thing. I'm wondering if this still the case, and you're confident in the PROcede timing control/safety features that you don't suggest we dial anything down based on these recent engine failures.

The cause of these engine failures have nothing to do with running too much boost. But rather running too much boost with no timing control, no knock monitoring, no output monitoring and poor boost control. In the case of the Procede, these limitations dont exist. And autotuning limits are typically only raised from the default of 17psi to 20psi once when race fuel is used (with or without meth). As for meth failure, it's just not likely to cause associated engine damage when detected flow is what induces the more aggressive boost/timing mapping. When meth flow stops or is partially compromised, the tune will immediately assume conservative map1 boost/timing values. And since map1 doesn't autotune when in progressive meth mode, there is little risk of a failure from finding yourself in a situation where the tune is too aggressive for your conditions.

These engine failures are just waiting to happen given the lack of understaning ullustrated by those supporting it. The "my tune can support that too and I'm going to prove it" mentality is all well and good when you prove it on your shop car first. Not when your customers are your guinea pigs. It's still surprising to me that anyone would voluntarily install what is essentially a poorly implemented boost controller, increase boost 2-3x, run methanol or nitrous and not expect some sort of immediate failure. Any tuner who supports that usage simply doesnt have much experience/understanding and has too much confidence in the safely measures offered by the factory DME.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

...The "my tune can support that too and I'm going to prove it" mentality is all well and good when you prove it on your shop car first. Not when your customers are your guinea pigs.

Seriously?!!! ..this coming from a company that frequently releases Beta maps to existing customers for testing!

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Seriously?!!! ..this coming from a company that frequently releases Beta maps to existing customers for testing!

Why are you such a hater?? Whats the matter there are not enough I love GIAC tune threads for you to post on?? You are getting pretty pathetic now man. Stay out of this thread when you and your car has nothing to do with it....Go on Mr 5. threads man!

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Seriously?!!! ..this coming from a company that frequently releases Beta maps to existing customers for testing!

Our "beta maps" don't risk engines. They test new features with are rarely even engine output related. And they are thoroughly tested in-house and then by a small group of people even before they are made public. And even when public, there is nothing "beta" about them other than thier official name. Pls don't confuse anything we do with how other tuners operate. If you don't have the understanding to differentiate, ask for clarification instead of attacking.

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Seriously?!!! ..this coming from a company that frequently releases Beta maps to existing customers for testing!

Here I found another GIAC thread for you to give your wealth of info to!!

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433960

Have fun man!

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Why are you such a hater?? Whats the matter there are not enough I love GIAC tune threads for you to post on?? You are getting pretty pathetic now man. Stay out of this thread when you and your car has nothing to do with it....Go on Mr 5. threads man!

I am not a hater. I am simply bringing things out that I think are being omitted. In his previous post Shiv claims that BMS is routinely using customers for testing and correctly points out that this may not be the best practice.

However, he fails to mention that vishnutuning does EXACTLY the same thing with their beta maps. Kind-a one sided argument, don't you think?

I am simply trying to expose their own skeletons which they won't admit to and bring them down to earth a bit! ...for the sake of this community, not for anything else.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Here I found another GIAC thread for you to give your wealth of info to!!

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433960

Have fun man!

The reason why I commented on this is because Shiv made it sound that they are better than sliced bread and they do all of their testing on their own cars and not on customers cars.

I am not blind! I know that it is a common practice to do limited release beta testing. However, shiv made it sound that they are better than the competition by doing all of their testing "in house", unlike BMS, or GIAC...