[BrianMN]

Can someone please do me a favor, as I genuinely want to understand this-

Please explain a logical scenario where a car with a WW tank low in meth can possibly escape the tank/filler neck and cause a fire similar to what happened to the OP?

I can understand if the tank is filled and the cap popped off and spilled onto manifold (which I still find it hard to see a cap in working order would pop off given my experience) but with a low tank I can't see it happening with a neck/cap that is in working order.

[335iPSI]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Can someone please do me a favor, as I genuinely want to understand this-

Please explain a logical scenario where a car with a WW tank low in meth can possibly escape the tank/filler neck and cause a fire similar to what happened to the OP?

I can understand if the tank is filled and the cap popped off and spilled onto manifold (which I still find it hard to see a cap in working order would pop off given my experience) but with a low tank I can't see it happening with a neck/cap that is in working order.

If you look at the design of the neck, it's similar to a sink, where it goes down, then up, then down into the tank, no matter how much is in the reservoir, there is some that sits there in the dip. When taking an extremely hard corner the liquid can push on the piece of junk cap. It can come off then spilling meth onto the turbos for instant fire.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Arcadia335

Meth tube was untouched...I'm not saying I disagree with you but...all meth lines were untouched and I'm thinking if my Meth caught, my whole care would be toast...

It's not the meth line or the meth pump that causes this. It is the windshield washer reservoir. Meth is able to splash out from a few areas, the reservoir cap, the reservoir neck, the pressure vent/overflow or a simple crack or leak at any of the bottom fittings or tubing.

The result is meth falls down into the pan and splashes onto the downpipes or meth simply splashes on the turbo side of the motor depending on where it initially falls.

I hate to see another car up in flames.

For those in denial, that is fine, but atleast do yourself a favor and get a fire extinguisher or two.

If you dont want to take the risk take a $100 or so and convert to a trunk mount take and LOWER your risk. You can even do it for half that if your on a budget.

We've seen even 50/50 mixes go up.

I'm not sure how many more stories we need to hear. If this wasn't meth that is fine but it just goes to show how there are some design flaws in this vehicle for sure in some regards.

[pits200]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

We've seen even 50/50 mixes go up.

50/50 mixes go up, really?

That's a little baffling to me.

[rismo]

no 50-50 will also burn... especialy when the water is vaporized by the heat of the exhaust....

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by 335iPSI

If you look at the design of the neck, it's similar to a sink, where it goes down, then up, then down into the tank, no matter how much is in the reservoir, there is some that sits there in the dip. When taking an extremely hard corner the liquid can push on the piece of junk cap. It can come off then spilling meth onto the turbos for instant fire.

1) Can you please cite a picture where you've seen the filler neck like this? The filler neck in the E90s does not go down then back up into the tank...it goes down into the wheelwell then horizontally into the tank. I can take a picture if you'd like. So if the meth in the tank is level with or below the neck/inlet to the tank, there will be no meth in the neck at standstill. (Maybe some in the ridges of the hose)

2) I agree that when cornering hard [to the right], meth will go "up" the filler neck. However- when the tank is low there will be practically no pressure to push open a working, sealed cap. Even when a tank is filled to the top, A fully track prepped E90 with the best [stickiest] tires in the world pulling 1.15 lateral Gs is not pull enough G forces to pop open non-defective cap in working condition..so this happening on a tame drive home from the dealership is a bit puzzling.

If your cap is junk, it might be defective or really old. I suggest buying a new one for a couple dollars. Or, simply put a piece of duct tape over it to hold it down.

So lets say this criteria is met:
-Install New Filler neck with a no cracks
-Install New or non-defective cap (even duct taped down)
-Install alcohol foam on and around the top of the tank to capture any meth that 'splashes' out.

Say that is all completed....what else can possibly happen?

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by rismo123

no 50-50 will also burn... especialy when the water is vaporized by the heat of the exhaust....

I was able to get 10:90 (Meth:water) to light with MAPP gas.

It's all about the ignition source. If you're trying to light 50/50 with a match it might not light...but with a hotter ignition source anything will burn.

[Baracus135i]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

I think you'll find that Shiv won't be selling the WW solution for long. They are putting together a trunk mount solution and honestly I think it's about time.

This sounds interesting? Shiv any idea on when u guys would have a Vishnu trunk mount kit available?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

It's not the meth line or the meth pump that causes this. It is the windshield washer reservoir. Meth is able to splash out from a few areas, the reservoir cap, the reservoir neck, the pressure vent/overflow or a simple crack or leak at any of the bottom fittings or tubing.

The result is meth falls down into the pan and splashes onto the downpipes or meth simply splashes on the turbo side of the motor depending on where it initially falls.

I hate to see another car up in flames.

For those in denial, that is fine, but atleast do yourself a favor and get a fire extinguisher or two.

If you dont want to take the risk take a $100 or so and convert to a trunk mount take and LOWER your risk. You can even do it for half that if your on a budget.

We've seen even 50/50 mixes go up.

I'm not sure how many more stories we need to hear. If this wasn't meth that is fine but it just goes to show how there are some design flaws in this vehicle for sure in some regards.

If you are genuinely interested in public safety, I'm not so sure meth tanks in the passenger compartment are a good idea either. Since every example of this WW fire issue you've posted involves the engine cover foam catching fire, why not just keep the meth behind the firewall where passengers are safe and instead remove the engine cover foam to eliminate the risk of it catching on fire?

Mike

[dbjb]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If you are genuinely interested in public safety, I'm not so sure meth tanks in the passenger compartment are a good idea either. Since every example of this WW fire issue you've posted involves the engine cover foam catching fire, why not just keep the meth behind the firewall where passengers are safe and instead remove the engine cover foam to eliminate the risk of it catching on fire?

Mike

There's she is. Yeah, I think anyone running meth should just remove that foam as a precaution. I'm not sure how much sound will get through. Hopefully the DI ticking won't be too bad.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If you are genuinely interested in public safety, I'm not so sure meth tanks in the passenger compartment are a good idea either. Since every example of this WW fire issue you've posted involves the engine cover foam catching fire, why not just keep the meth behind the firewall where passengers are safe and instead remove the engine cover foam to eliminate the risk of it catching on fire?

Mike

Hi Mike

Please dont put words in my mouth.

I've never said ANYWHERE that engine cover foam is going up in smoke and that is the only thing that catches fire. It's typical of you to make up stories and this is proof. Its clear you have no understanding of what is going on and all you try to do is hide flaws in anything you sell. This is true since the beginning of time.

I'm genuinely interested in making people aware this WW reservoir and methanol kits you BOAST about are dangerous and causing fires.

I've seen them first hand go up right in front of my own eyes so you can feel free to sugar coat all these problems but as time goes by they are coming into this forum more and more every week. Coincidence? I think not.

I've suggested on multiple occasions NO METH is the safest meth. I've ONLY suggested if you want to reduce the risk of fire, simply move to a trunk mount tank. Yes, people should be aware there is still a risk even with a trunk mounted tank.

Please save yourself sometime trying to make me look like the bad guy by trying to help people out, its actually quite offensive you would entertain the notion that I do not have peoples safety in mind when I clearly do.
Which brings me back to my original point, NO METH, is the safest approach. <--- Do a quick search I've said this atleast a half a dozen times on this forum recently.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

1) Can you please cite a picture where you've seen the filler neck like this? The filler neck in the E90s does not go down then back up into the tank...it goes down into the wheelwell then horizontally into the tank. I can take a picture if you'd like. So if the meth in the tank is level with or below the neck/inlet to the tank, there will be no meth in the neck at standstill. (Maybe some in the ridges of the hose)

2) I agree that when cornering hard [to the right], meth will go "up" the filler neck. However- when the tank is low there will be practically no pressure to push open a working, sealed cap. Even when a tank is filled to the top, A fully track prepped E90 with the best [stickiest] tires in the world pulling 1.15 lateral Gs is not pull enough G forces to pop open non-defective cap in working condition..so this happening on a tame drive home from the dealership is a bit puzzling.

If your cap is junk, it might be defective or really old. I suggest buying a new one for a couple dollars. Or, simply put a piece of duct tape over it to hold it down.

So lets say this criteria is met:
-Install New Filler neck with a no cracks
-Install New or non-defective cap (even duct taped down)
-Install alcohol foam on and around the top of the tank to capture any meth that 'splashes' out.

Say that is all completed....what else can possibly happen?

That is easy. Your assuming those are the only points of failure when they aren't. Historically people are now finding that the vent opening is leaking meth onto the underside pan and pooling up overtime. Or meth can be leaking from the washer pumps or level sensor and other components mounted onto the reservoir and pooling up. Especially with those people running higher concentrations of meth.

Some people get lucky and it all evaporates, others not so much.

The end result is meth sloshing into the turboside of the engine.

[Wedge1967]

Sorry Mike, but I really think you're missing the point. The foam catches on fire due to auto ignition fires caused by methanol coming into contact with hot down pipes.

The best solution is not to run meth, but if you do, you need to use a race approved fuel cell even if it is trunk mounted. I really don’t think too many people have taken into consideration the boiling point of methanol, even mixed with water with the WW solution. Nor do they understand the flash points of methanol water solution. Trunk mount will keep the tank much cooler. If your tank needs to be vented, then you should use a vent tube that dumps vapor outside the car and not in the trunk. This should be common sense, but from what I’ve seen on this form, not everyone demonstrates that characteristic.

Page 14 and page 22 in the Technical Information & Safe Handling Guide for Methanol shows a lot of good information with regard to methanol.

Technical Information
& Safe Handling Guide
for Methanol

The flash point of methanol water solution is unchanged from 80 to 100 %. The boiling point between 80 and 100% methanol is less than 5 °C. Everyone wonders why they get bubbles in their line… The engine bay is just too hot for the storage of methanol.

The key part of this forum is FIRE SAFETY.

Flammability - Methanol is defined by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) in the USA as a Class 1B flammable liquid.

Solutions of methanol containing up to 74% water are classified by NFPA as flammable.

Flash Point

Flash point is defined as the minimum temperature at which the vapour pressure of a liquid is sufficient to form an ignitable mixture with air near the surface of the liquid. Pure methanol has a flash point of 12°C (54°F) (TCC method).

When ambient temperature is less than the methanol flash point, the fire hazard is reduced. However, local hot spots can exceed the flash point and methanol can be ignited. Warmer ambient conditions increase the overall fire hazard.

Lower and Upper Explosive Limits

The lower explosive limit (LEL) of a flammable liquid is defined as the minimum concentration of the vapour in air for which a flame can propagate. The methanol LEL is 6% by volume.

The upper explosive limit (UEL) of a flammable liquid is defined as the maximum concentration of the vapour in air for which a flame can propagate. The methanol UEL is 36% by volume. The UEL corresponds to a methanol temperature of 41°C (106°F).

Within the approximate temperature range of 12°C to 41°C, methanol will produce a concentration of vapour that is explosive upon contact with an ignition source.

Auto Ignition Temperature

The auto ignition temperature of a substance is the minimum temperature required for self-sustained combustion in the absence of an external ignition source. Methanol has an auto ignition temperature of 470°C (878°F).

So for everyone who keeps talking vapor ignition or oil leaks, stop wasting everyones time. I'm sure a high level of vapor and spark would be possible within a closed environment, but I know for a fact that when my car went up I had a lot of methanol in liquid form on the sub pan which ultimately would have came into contact with the down pipes as the liquid runs back on to the sub pan. It just so happens the first thing that catches on fire is the foam under the valve cover as the fire is pulled under the valve cover by the heat exchange from the engine. So again, removing the foam won't eliminate the risk of fire, it will just remove one of the flammable items that have a tendency to catch fire and burn out the electrical components on top of the engine.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

If you are genuinely interested in public safety, I'm not so sure meth tanks in the passenger compartment are a good idea either. Since every example of this WW fire issue you've posted involves the engine cover foam catching fire, why not just keep the meth behind the firewall where passengers are safe and instead remove the engine cover foam to eliminate the risk of it catching on fire?

Mike

[335okc]

this is gonna sound super crazy, but what if you drill some holes on the sub pan?
leaked meth assuming from the pump gasket or a cracked ww reservoir would go to the sub pan and just drain out instead of pooling and vaporizing and potentially catching fire?

[Wedge1967]

Crazy is looking for solutions other than just moving your meth tank to an approved container in a cool location within the car.

If you want to drill holes, you may as well just remove the sub pan completely and let the meth run down the frame away from the down pipes.

Originally Posted by 335okc

this is gonna sound super crazy, but what if you drill some holes on the sub pan?
leaked meth assuming from the pump gasket or a cracked ww reservoir would go to the sub pan and just drain out instead of pooling and vaporizing and potentially catching fire?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

Sorry Mike, but I really think you're missing the point. The foam catches on fire due to auto ignition fires caused by methanol coming into contact with hot down pipes.

The best solution is not to run meth, but if you do, you need to use a race approved fuel cell even if it is trunk mounted. I really don’t think too many people have taken into consideration the boiling point of methanol, even mixed with water with the WW solution. Nor do they understand the flash points of methanol water solution. Trunk mount will keep the tank much cooler. If your tank needs to be vented, then you should use a vent tube that dumps vapor outside the car and not in the trunk. This should be common sense, but from what I’ve seen on this form, not everyone demonstrates that characteristic.

Page 14 and page 22 in the Technical Information & Safe Handling Guide for Methanol shows a lot of good information with regard to methanol.

Technical Information
& Safe Handling Guide
for Methanol

The flash point of methanol water solution is unchanged from 80 to 100 %. The boiling point between 80 and 100% methanol is less than 5 °C. Everyone wonders why they get bubbles in their line… The engine bay is just too hot for the storage of methanol.

The key part of this forum is FIRE SAFETY.

Flammability - Methanol is defined by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) in the USA as a Class 1B flammable liquid.

Solutions of methanol containing up to 74% water are classified by NFPA as flammable.

Flash Point

Flash point is defined as the minimum temperature at which the vapour pressure of a liquid is sufficient to form an ignitable mixture with air near the surface of the liquid. Pure methanol has a flash point of 12°C (54°F) (TCC method).

When ambient temperature is less than the methanol flash point, the fire hazard is reduced. However, local hot spots can exceed the flash point and methanol can be ignited. Warmer ambient conditions increase the overall fire hazard.

Lower and Upper Explosive Limits

The lower explosive limit (LEL) of a flammable liquid is defined as the minimum concentration of the vapour in air for which a flame can propagate. The methanol LEL is 6% by volume.

The upper explosive limit (UEL) of a flammable liquid is defined as the maximum concentration of the vapour in air for which a flame can propagate. The methanol UEL is 36% by volume. The UEL corresponds to a methanol temperature of 41°C (106°F).

Within the approximate temperature range of 12°C to 41°C, methanol will produce a concentration of vapour that is explosive upon contact with an ignition source.

Auto Ignition Temperature

The auto ignition temperature of a substance is the minimum temperature required for self-sustained combustion in the absence of an external ignition source. Methanol has an auto ignition temperature of 470°C (878°F).

So for everyone who keeps talking vapor ignition or oil leaks, stop wasting everyones time. I'm sure a high level of vapor and spark would be possible within a closed environment, but I know for a fact that when my car went up I had a lot of methanol in liquid form on the sub pan which ultimately would have came into contact with the down pipes as the liquid runs back on to the sub pan. It just so happens the first thing that catches on fire is the foam under the valve cover as the fire is pulled under the valve cover by the heat exchange from the engine. So again, removing the foam won't eliminate the risk of fire, it will just remove one of the flammable items that have a tendency to catch fire and burn out the electrical components on top of the engine.

Originally Posted by Wedge1967

Crazy is looking for solutions other than just moving your meth tank to an approved container in a cool location within the car.

If you want to drill holes, you may as well just remove the sub pan completely and let the meth run down the frame away from the down pipes.

Thank you

[pits200]

Why should we debate any meth content lower than 40% being that a lot of washer fluids have meth contents in the 30-40% range.

So couldn't any car on the street go up in flames if even a 10% meth content is flammable?

[E3r2E9r]

Originally Posted by pits200

Why should we debate any meth content lower than 40% being that a lot of washer fluids have meth contents in the 30-40% range.

So couldn't any car on the street go up in flames if even a 10% meth content is flammable?

You're missing the point. If you are using BMW WW fluid and your car catches fire then you have some recourse and can point the finger at BMW.
If you are running a ww methanol kit with 50/50 or higher concentration you have nobody to blame but yourself or the people that say its safe. We should stop splitting hairs and realize there is an inherent risk with the ww reservoir, period.

[E92TTKING]

just get e85 and call it a day!

[Q4P]

I wish this car wasn't DI...

[cn555ic]

Best tank is this setup! But you have to be a convertible though!

[pits200]

Originally Posted by E3r2E9r

You're missing the point. If you are using BMW WW fluid and your car catches fire then you have some recourse and can point the finger at BMW.
If you are running a ww methanol kit with 50/50 or higher concentration you have nobody to blame but yourself or the people that say its safe. We should stop splitting hairs and realize there is an inherent risk with the ww reservoir, period.

Uh, no I'm not. You're missing the point. Who cares about recourse, I'm talking about whats in the ww tank whether it's deemed ww fluid or meth mix. If the risk is there even like someone said with a 10% methanol mixture like in many ww fluids then BMW has a huge lawsuit on their hands if this is the reason even stock cars are catching on fire.