[Clap135]

how much money is involved?

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I'm waiting for someone without a JB to come in here and defend that it follows ideal common tuning practices...

I'm waiting.

Then I want to meet them and have them tell me with a straight face it is the most Ideal way of tuning a vehicle.

Waiting...

I don't have a JB tune, and I am not "defending" I just was asking questions.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I don't have a JB tune, and I am not "defending" I just was asking questions.

So your no help then. Your questions have been answered.

Next.

My offer still stands, waiting for someone to tell me its the ideal way of tuning.

Doesnt even have to JB...

According to Mike these products also offer the same tuning method.

SSTT, Helix Attache, Active Processor 2, PEZ, and VAC piggybacks

So....

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

So your no help then. Your questions have been answered.

Next.

No they haven't, thats why I stopped asking.

Originally Posted by JPSlick

So your no help then. Your questions have been answered.

Next.

My offer still stands, waiting for someone to tell me its the ideal way of tuning.

Nobody will say its "ideal" but tbh the stock was is not "ideal" so thats irrelevant.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

No they haven't, thats why I stopped asking.



Nobody will say its "ideal" but tbh the stock was is not "ideal" so thats irrelevant.

Yea they have.
Thanks for admitting its not ideal. Thats my point. I have no problem with the stock tune.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Yea they have.
Thanks for admitting its not ideal. Thats my point. I have no problem with the stock tune.

Well the stock tune has the same problems as the JB tunes (yes the JB tune has the possibility to make them worst)

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Well the stock tune has the same problems as the JB tunes (yes the JB tune has the possibility to make them worst)

Nope, your wrong again.

A stock tune makes about 270-280WHP. Totally different internal cylinder pressures.

The stock tune is also not trying to make the most HP out of overspun turbo's

Its not dealing with the same amount of heat or stress.

The stock tune is fine for what it is. Dont let a post about a stock tune knocking fool you that its now OK to knock with 2x more boost as well.

This all comes back to the viscous cycle of YOU continuing to beat around the bush.

You have been proven wrong time and time again.

Here it is a 2nd time in this post alone...

CYLINDER PRESSURES and the severity of knock are not the same stock as they would be with 2x more boost or whatever those tunes run.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Nope, your wrong again.

A stock tune makes about 270-280WHP. Totally different internal cylinder pressures.

The stock tune is also not trying to make the most HP out of overspun turbo's

Its not dealing with the same amount of heat or stress.

The stock tune is fine for what it is. Dont let a post about a stock tune knocking fool you that its now OK to knock with 2x more boost as well.

This all comes back to the viscous cycle of YOU continuing to beat around the bush.

You have been proven wrong time and time again.

Here it is a 2nd time in this post alone...

CYLINDER PRESSURES and the severity of knock are not the same stock as they would be with 2x more boost or whatever those tunes run.

I guess I still don't understand because nobody knows how severe knock can get until it is stopped by the OEM system.

If the system stop's the knock before it causes problem's I don't see how it really matters what the pressure/heat etc.

But if it does not catch it in time, and lets it knock to a point were its causing problems then the added boost can/will cause problems.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I guess I still don't understand because nobody knows how severe knock can get until it is stopped by the OEM system.

If the system stop's the knock before it causes problem's I don't see how it really matters what the pressure/heat etc.

But if it does not catch it in time, and lets it knock to a point were its causing problems then the added boost can cause problems.

.... its fine you dont know. But physics tells us there is plenty more stress with an engine being pushed with 2x more boost over stock.

Physics tells us that if an engine were to knock with INCREASED cylinders pressures then it would be that much more severe, and could be that much more catastrophic.

By no accident, cumulative knocking with increased cylinder pressures, results in a potentially more sever abuse on the engine hardware.

By no accident, tuners limit ignition BEFORE the knock threshold, and place a safety buffer on top of that to limit any chance of knock. Naturally, this is done because when pushing for max power, increased cylinder pressures, heat ETC will be a more sever knock, then a knock on a stock tune.

Its physics.

edit- excuse my excessive of use for commas its a bad habit. LOL.

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

These threads have turned in to bash fests from the usual suspects with few technical arguments being made. A waste of time to participate at this point. But I'll offer you this. In addition to the JB line of products, SSTT, Helix Attache, Active Processor 2, PEZ, and VAC piggybacks rely primarily on the DME's adaptive system. There are more N54 tunes in use today that don't alter CPS for advance limiters than ones that do.

Sniz: You've been unable to follow even the most basic technical arguments here and simply are trying to bash me. Don't take this the wrong way but maybe its time to focus on your why your custom tuned large turbo car is only putting down 300hp.

Mike

A dirt cheap manual boost controller on any car will perform the same basic function as many of the "tunes" you've listed.... does that make a cheap MBC an optimal tuning solution with no other factors to be considered?

I swear, some of the members on this board might hand you a shovel, but you're the one that just keeps on digging... good luck friend.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by roninsoldier83

A dirt cheap manual boost controller on any car will perform the same basic function as many of the "tunes" you've listed.... does that make a cheap MBC an optimal tuning solution with no other factors to be considered?

I swear, some of the members on this board might hand you a shovel, but you're the one that just keeps on digging... good luck friend.

I was going to bring up slapping a boost controller and having the stock ECU figure it out as reference. Glad I wasnt the only person thinking that. I mean....really?

We mine as well..... If the stock DME is capable, why are we even buying any of these tunes?

We can have a boost controller for what? a couple hundred dollars? if that.

Oh i know why, cause we will throw limp modes galore.....

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I guess I still don't understand because nobody knows how severe knock can get until it is stopped by the OEM system.

If the system stop's the knock before it causes problem's I don't see how it really matters what the pressure/heat etc.

But if it does not catch it in time, and lets it knock to a point were its causing problems then the added boost can/will cause problems.

knock builds up and accumulates... it doesn't magically disappear. so when the stock tune knocks OCCASIONALLY in horrid conditions, yes damage is being done.

when the jb is knocking on a daily basis, it is ALSO causing damage, reguardless of how bad the knock actually is, you're doing more damage by sticking with the jb tune...

do you understand what i'm saying?

even if both tunes produce the same amount of damage from knock, the tune that knocks more is causing MORE damage than the tune that isn't knocking as much..

[Sniz]

Ok Mike,

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

These threads have turned in to bash fests from the usual suspects with few technical arguments being made. A waste of time to participate at this point. But I'll offer you this. In addition to the JB line of products, SSTT, Helix Attache, Active Processor 2, PEZ, and VAC piggybacks rely primarily on the DME's adaptive system. There are more N54 tunes in use today that don't alter CPS for advance limiters than ones that do.

Sniz: You've been unable to follow even the most basic technical arguments here and simply are trying to bash me. Don't take this the wrong way but maybe its time to focus on your why your custom tuned large turbo car is only putting down 300hp.

Mike

Ok Mike

You must be right as always.

Where am I missing basic facts? Where is my car only making 300hp lol. My current car is not relevant here at all anyway. If you are going to bring it into a personal pissing contest I will gladly run you pump vs pump.

[Elie335i]

Originally Posted by roninsoldier83

A dirt cheap manual boost controller on any car will perform the same basic function as many of the "tunes" you've listed.... does that make a cheap MBC an optimal tuning solution with no other factors to be considered?

I swear, some of the members on this board might hand you a shovel, but you're the one that just keeps on digging... good luck friend.

I wonder... Wasn't your previous/current tune is Jb3/4 ?

[michael1284]

I like this thread, let's keep it going.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by michael1284

I like this thread, let's keep it going.

It should be renamed...

Official Call Out: Putting all the cards on the table

[Sniz]

Stupid spell check...pissing, there now its saved.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

.... its fine you dont know. But physics tells us there is plenty more stress with an engine being pushed with 2x more boost over stock.

Physics tells us that if an engine were to knock with INCREASED cylinders pressures then it would be that much more severe, and could be that much more catastrophic.

By no accident, cumulative knocking with increased cylinder pressures, results in a potentially more sever abuse on the engine hardware.

By no accident, tuners limit ignition BEFORE the knock threshold, and place a safety buffer on top of that to limit any chance of knock. Naturally, this is done because when pushing for max power, increased cylinder pressures, heat ETC will be a more sever knock, then a knock on a stock tune.

Its physics.

edit- excuse my excessive of use for commas its a bad habit. LOL.

I know the theory of what you guys are trying to say, I just want to know at what frequency the OEM system picks up and lowers timing itself, and how severe the knock is at that frequency. Because like I said, if its causing no harm, or such slight harm that it is unnoticeable, then no matter how much boost you put to it, as long as you are still in the range of the system, then it will still pick up the same Frequency and lower timing before harder knock will occur.

Originally Posted by Dmacc

knock builds up and accumulates... it doesn't magically disappear. so when the stock tune knocks OCCASIONALLY in horrid conditions, yes damage is being done.

when the jb is knocking on a daily basis, it is ALSO causing damage, reguardless of how bad the knock actually is, you're doing more damage by sticking with the jb tune...

do you understand what i'm saying?

even if both tunes produce the same amount of damage from knock, the tune that knocks more is causing MORE damage than the tune that isn't knocking as much..

My question to you is, at what point does the OEM sensors kick in and lower timing to eliminate knock.

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I know the theory of what you guys are trying to say, I just want to know at what frequency the OEM system picks up and lowers timing itself, and how severe the knock is at that frequency. Because like I said, if its causing no harm, or such slight harm that it is unnoticeable, then no matter how much boost you put to it, as long as you are still in the range of the system, then it will still pick up the same Frequency and lower timing before harder knock will occur.

the amount of damage is going to be more noticeable in the long run when a car that doesn't have to deal with these knocks outlives BY FAR a car that does have to deal with these events on a daily basis.

common sense

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

the amount of damage is going to be more noticeable in the long run when a car that doesn't have to deal with these knocks outlives BY FAR a car that does have to deal with these events on a daily basis.

common sense

In the long run? How long is this run, I only own a car for 30,000 miles usually. This one I have had longer, but only because its such a great car and I over paid for it.

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

In the long run? How long is this run, I only own a car for 30,000 miles usually. This one I have had longer, but only because its such a great car and I over paid for it.

Well I'm glad you're really not too concerned for your engine internals. If you're not planning to keep it for the long run then feel free to do whatever you want to do to the engine.

but for the sake of this argument in this thread, you really have no say in it if this is your opinion on the car.

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by Elie335i

I wonder... Wasn't your previous/current tune is Jb3/4 ?

Yes sir (Long story, but the short answer is yes haha)

And as soon as Cobb releases AP support for the '07's as well as ATR, I'll be posting a full comparison of JB4 vs AP (OTS map) vs AP (ATR tuned by myself), with dynos (already dyno'd the JB4 a while ago, although it's been out of the car for a while now/been running stock), full logs and an overall review of all.