[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Dmacc

Well I'm glad you're really not too concerned for your engine internals. If you're not planning to keep it for the long run then feel free to do whatever you want to do to the engine.

but for the sake of this argument in this thread, you really have no say in it if this is your opinion on the car.

Well realistically, how long is long?

There have been a few people chime in on this thread that have used the entire JB lineup, they have no blown anything up..

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by roninsoldier83

Yes sir (Long story, but the short answer is yes haha)

And as soon as Cobb releases AP support for the '07's as well as ATR, I'll be posting a full comparison of JB4 vs AP (OTS map) vs AP (ATR tuned by myself), with dynos (already dyno'd the JB4 a while ago, although it's been out of the car for a while now/been running stock), full logs and an overall review of all.

Hopefully ATR will come out very soon.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I know the theory of what you guys are trying to say, I just want to know at what frequency the OEM system picks up and lowers timing itself, and how severe the knock is at that frequency. Because like I said, if its causing no harm, or such slight harm that it is unnoticeable, then no matter how much boost you put to it, as long as you are still in the range of the system, then it will still pick up the same Frequency and lower timing before harder knock will occur.



My question to you is, at what point does the OEM sensors kick in and lower timing to eliminate knock.

If your looking for a direct answer or a number or some value, I cant give it to you.

It doesnt matter however.

We did deduce that the stock tune has potential to knock.

We know from physics, when you add more power, you inrease cylinder pressures.

You do know what knock is right?

You know that it in essence wants to push down on the piston while its coming up?

Below I will use a sledge hammer slamming down on a piston in reference to knock.
Lets say knock on a stock tune would be like a 5lb sledge hammer driving the piston down.

IF you know on 2x more boost which is exponentially increased cylinder pressure, you are making more power. When you make more power, there is more "FORCE" being applied.

When it knocks, its going to have more force to apply downwards.

Arbitrarily when knocking with 2x more boost it could be like a 20lbs sledge hammer is driving down on the piston.

Maybe that clears it up visually for you.

What you seem to be stuck on is assuming the knock sensor catches knock in time to save the engine.

What your missing the point on is how it works.

When the knock sensor catches knock on a stock car, it caught a less severe instance of knock.

When the knock sensor catches knock on a 2x more boost car, it caught a more severe instance of knock.

However, the potential for damage, and cumulative damage and integrity of the car is compromised a lot more with 2x more boost (all falling back to cylinder pressures and the potential force).

I still dont know how else to explain to you what knock is and why its more detrimental with more power, but it all comes back to physics.

If you still dont understand after 60 or so pages, you might want to seek out a 3rd party method either through books or internet to explain what knock is, cylinder pressures, physics, Engine tuning theory, and whatever else your confused on.

The points have been proven over and over. There are many people in agreement on this point now.

The only people still stuck on stubborn, well, you know who they are.

They are protecting their ego, and their brand. They most certainly arent protecting their cars though.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

Hopefully ATR will come out very soon.

Agreed, ill enjoy watching what everyone can do with full control. Hopefully all for the good.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

If your looking for a direct answer or a number or some value, I cant give it to you.

It doesnt matter however.

We did deduce that the stock tune has potential to knock.

We know from physics, when you add more power, you inrease cylinder pressures.

You do know what knock is right?

You know that it in essence wants to push down on the piston while its coming up?

Below I will use a sledge hammer slamming down on a piston in reference to knock.
Lets say knock on a stock tune would be like a 5lb sledge hammer driving the piston down.

IF you know on 2x more boost which is exponentially increased cylinder pressure, you are making more power. When you make more power, there is more "FORCE" being applied.

When it knocks, its going to have more force to apply downwards.

Arbitrarily when knocking with 2x more boost it could be like a 20lbs sledge hammer is driving down on the piston.

Maybe that clears it up visually for you.

What you seem to be stuck on is assuming the knock sensor catches knock in time to save the engine.

What your missing the point on is how it works.

When the knock sensor catches knock on a stock car, it caught a less severe instance of knock.

When the knock sensor catches knock on a 2x more boost car, it caught a more severe instance of knock.

However, the potential for damage, and cumulative damage and integrity of the car is compromised a lot more with 2x more boost (all falling back to cylinder pressures and the potential force).

I still dont know how else to explain to you what knock is and why its more detrimental with more power, but it all comes back to physics.

If you still dont understand after 60 or so pages, you might want to seek out a 3rd party method either through books or internet to explain what knock is, cylinder pressures, physics, Engine tuning theory, and whatever else your confused on.

The points have been proven over and over. There are many people in agreement on this point now.

The only people still stuck on stubborn, well, you know who they are.

They are protecting their ego, and their brand. They most certainly arent protecting their cars though.

Lets throw out who people are or what tune, it does not matter

I also understand how you seem to say more boost harder knock etc.


THIS IS MY QUESTION, HOW SEVERE IS THE KNOCK WHEN THE OEM SYSTEM LOWERS TIMING. IF IT CATCHES IT BEFORE THE HAMMER HIT'S WITH 100% OF ITS PRESSURE AND IT DOES THAT WITH 10 POUNDS OR 20 POUNDS OR 50 POUNDS HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT AMOUNT AND HOW SEVERE THE KNOCK REALLY IS?

And I don't feel anybody really knows because they say the same thing as you, it does not matter etc etc. When really, if the OEM sensor pics up (example) at Level 1 knock, no matter how high your boost or pressure get's it will still lower timing when you hit level 1 knock. I understand you will be hitting this threshold faster, but then the question would be, how quickly can it react to lower timing so that damage is not done.

Thats the thing that I am caught up on.

I know I am going around in circles because I have not got an answer that is definitive, I also understand that other tunes this does not matter.

As I stated in like the third post, I don't have an opinion on this.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Lets throw out who people are or what tune, it does not matter

I also understand how you seem to say more boost harder knock etc.


THIS IS MY QUESTION, HOW SEVERE IS THE KNOCK WHEN THE OEM SYSTEM LOWERS TIMING. IF IT CATCHES IT BEFORE THE HAMMER HIT'S WITH 100% OF ITS PRESSURE AND IT DOES THAT WITH 10 POUNDS OR 20 POUNDS OR 50 POUNDS HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT AMOUNT AND HOW SEVERE THE KNOCK REALLY IS?

And I don't feel anybody really knows because they say the same thing as you, it does not matter etc etc. When really, if the OEM sensor pics up (example) at Level 1 knock, no matter how high your boost or pressure get's it will still lower timing when you hit level 1 knock. I understand you will be hitting this threshold faster, but then the question would be, how quickly can it react to lower timing so that damage is not done.

Thats the thing that I am caught up on.

I know I am going around in circles because I have not got an answer that is definitive, I also understand that other tunes this does not matter.

As I stated in like the third post, I don't have an opinion on this.

I still dont know what your asking... I think whatever your asking the point is moot.

Knock isnt good in any severity. Limiting knock when making more power is that much more important cause of its severity being exponentially increased.

Conclusion, avoid knocking from the start, and use knock sensors as a failsafe not a tuning solution.

Only thing I can think of to your question is, when you knock on a stock level it might require only a 1 degree of timing reduction to fix the next power stroke.

When you knock with 2x more boost, it might require 3 4 5 6 degrees of timing reduction.

That in itself is something stock DME logic is not capable of.

Which is where multiple knocks come in as the DME lowers ignition 1 time, knocks, lowers again, knocks, and has to keep lowering to stop knocking.

That is why the theory of lowering the ignition set points with increased boost comes into play, its giving the knock sensor (last resort) a chance to lower ignition ASAP. Instead of going through multiple instances of knock.

Its all cool that the knock sensor tells the ignition to lower, but it doesnt know how much to lower, only what is built into its logic.

This is why someone pushing 22 PSI, and relies on the DME to lower ignition safely runs into a problem, cause the DME cannot react fast enough, granted its an extreme situation.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Lets throw out who people are or what tune, it does not matter

I also understand how you seem to say more boost harder knock etc.


THIS IS MY QUESTION, HOW SEVERE IS THE KNOCK WHEN THE OEM SYSTEM LOWERS TIMING. IF IT CATCHES IT BEFORE THE HAMMER HIT'S WITH 100% OF ITS PRESSURE AND IT DOES THAT WITH 10 POUNDS OR 20 POUNDS OR 50 POUNDS HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT AMOUNT AND HOW SEVERE THE KNOCK REALLY IS?

And I don't feel anybody really knows because they say the same thing as you, it does not matter etc etc. When really, if the OEM sensor pics up (example) at Level 1 knock, no matter how high your boost or pressure get's it will still lower timing when you hit level 1 knock. I understand you will be hitting this threshold faster, but then the question would be, how quickly can it react to lower timing so that damage is not done.

Thats the thing that I am caught up on.

I know I am going around in circles because I have not got an answer that is definitive, I also understand that other tunes this does not matter.

As I stated in like the third post, I don't have an opinion on this.

As stated numerous times, knock at 8psi is far different from knock at 14-15 psi.

The cylinder pressures with increased boost are significantly higher; so knock at these increased pressures are more significant than a knock at 8psi.

Even a tune with direct timing control won't save you if you're running 17-18 psi on meth and the spray drops out, no matter how low you have the timing tables set. The severity becomes much more significant if the tune is running the stock ignition curve on methanol (both piggybacks), however you are able to monitor meth flow and have integrated methanol safety features.

It is of honest opinion with a flash tune, you are better off tuning for pump gas and using methanol injection as an additive for cooling.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by roninsoldier83

Yes sir (Long story, but the short answer is yes haha)

And as soon as Cobb releases AP support for the '07's as well as ATR, I'll be posting a full comparison of JB4 vs AP (OTS map) vs AP (ATR tuned by myself), with dynos (already dyno'd the JB4 a while ago, although it's been out of the car for a while now/been running stock), full logs and an overall review of all.

The JB4 has only been out to the general public for a month or so. Maybe you mean a JB3?

Mike

[e92bmw]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

These threads have turned in to bash fests from the usual suspects with few technical arguments being made. A waste of time to participate at this point. But I'll offer you this. In addition to the JB line of products, SSTT, Helix Attache, Active Processor 2, PEZ, and VAC piggybacks rely primarily on the DME's adaptive system. There are more N54 tunes in use today that don't alter CPS for advance limiters than ones that do.


Mike

Well the sstt isnt a tune it just turns up the boost. The jb4 is supposedly a complete tune which is why its very surprising that it has no control on timing directly....

[Proper Motion LLC]

I believe the AA Processor is a re-branded JB3 in a pretty Procede like case.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I know the theory of what you guys are trying to say, I just want to know at what frequency the OEM system picks up and lowers timing itself, and how severe the knock is at that frequency. Because like I said, if its causing no harm, or such slight harm that it is unnoticeable, then no matter how much boost you put to it, as long as you are still in the range of the system, then it will still pick up the same Frequency and lower timing before harder knock will occur.

My question to you is, at what point does the OEM sensors kick in and lower timing to eliminate knock.

ok .. from your constant questioning either you really dont understand engine technology or you being willfully ignorant of certain principles -- i will attempt to clarify your clouded vision as much as possible

in stock form (within design specs) the timing control of DME can detect certain resonances from the engine identified as harmonics related to knock. these frequencies can be minor or heavy depending on calculated factors. based on factory output (stock) the DME is designed to correct (eliminate) the event as quickly as possible, reducing the timing instanteously and recovering to a point below the detected threshold -- and eventually resuming a setting at or below the max allowed level -- if the conditions are favorable.

now, since the knock detection system relies on harmonics (sound) lets re-phrase this in terms of "speed of sound" -- the harmonics from stock configuration will emit sound at a certain speed -- the sensor will relay this information to the DME -- these are preset prameters based on extensive testing on the bench and under load. so finding the "sweet spot" has already been done, before you buy the car.

if you look at this in terms of knock value (damage capacity) the max have been determined, even with substandard fuel -- as this is expected in certain cases.

so specific cylinder pressures have been defined as a baseline of normal (and abnormal) operation for stock conditions. now lets go a step further ---->

as boost is increased and cylinder pressures rise, the knock harmonics are much greater than stock, the stock sensors are looking for specific noises from the engine and now they are exaggerated, and outside the specific design specs. -- the reason you stay below the knock threshold on tuned engines is due to the rate of overall intake pressurization, and cylinder pressure increase can not be held in check once the event starts. adequate timing controls are your only safeguard to keep the engine alive.

the "overboosted" knock events happen so quickly and so far outside of normal operation its more than dangerous -- think of going to a concert and sitting in the nosebleed seats -- and compare that to if you are sitting right next to huge speakers that are being driven by 100,000 watts -- it takes time for the sound to reach the rear seats --- but if youre close your eardrums will take a beating --- and sooner or later --- all you hear is ringing..

by time the stock sensors signal the DME the effective pressures in the cylinder have gone past peak, into the danger area

go it ?

[roninsoldier83]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The JB4 has only been out to the general public for a month or so. Maybe you mean a JB3?

Mike

LOL, I have a dyno graph from MAC Auto (in Parker, CO) on 1/29/11 with the JB4 (put it in the day prior)... removed it the next day (actually, the JB3 had been out of the car for a while, I almost sold it/had a couple potential buyers on this forum, but then found out I was entitled to a free JB4 upgrade, so I figured I would at least compare the two)

I still have both sitting in my closet (along with your data cable), each labeled with a black permanent marker (can hardly see them). IIRC, one says "2.0" and the other says "JB4". I also swapped the pins around and added the extra power wire on the old harness (you guys did a damn good job with the instructions, easy to follow, took maybe ~5 minutes to swap the pins/add power wire), but you guys forgot to send zip ties with the JB4 haha (oh noes!! haha), but I have a ton of them so it's not a big deal haha. I must say, every time I ever emailed Terry, his responses were always quick (regardless of the time of night), and when it comes to customer service, I would say he does a great job.

As a matter of fact, from what I understand, you go to bat for your customers as well... I commend that. I have no problem with you guys in that department, actually, for the most part, as people, I have no problems with either of you at all (assuming you've posted your honest opinions and have not purposely misled anyone), I just think you guys have a few things to learn about tuning (specifically when it comes to timing). However, I think once you guys release the PRO board and have control over timing, you're going to see some of the benefits others have been talking about, and maybe even come to embrace a different ideology on that matter.

Just my $.02

Cheers,

-Brandon

[Clap135]

I keep hearing about this customer service, its good to get an quick answer. However, if something is developed correctly, there is not need to get intouch with whoever made it in the first place. If I buy a flat screen from sony, I am not calling them to figure out why its not working. It works, its crisp, and I enjoy using it.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I keep hearing about this customer service, its good to get an quick answer. However, if something is developed correctly, there is not need to get intouch with whoever made it in the first place. If I buy a flat screen from sony, I am not calling them to figure out why its not working. It works, its crisp, and I enjoy using it.

When you advertise a product as PnP, you will naturally have people with zero DIY ability trying to install these things themselves; customer service plays a big role. A TV, well, is a TV.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by themyst

When you advertise a product as PnP, you will naturally have people with zero DIY ability trying to install these things themselves; customer service plays a big role. A TV, well, is a TV.

A tv has alot more plug and play options, xbox, calble/sat, surround, various hd ins.....the tune is actually easier lol

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

ok .. from your constant questioning either you really dont understand engine technology or you being willfully ignorant of certain principles -- i will attempt to clarify your clouded vision as much as possible

in stock form (within design specs) the timing control of DME can detect certain resonances from the engine identified as harmonics related to knock. these frequencies ((which are, and caused when? at what severity?)) can be minor or heavy depending on calculated factors(which is). based on factory output (stock) the DME is designed to correct (eliminate) the event as quickly as possible(how quickly), reducing the timing instanteously and recovering to a point below the detected threshold -- and eventually resuming a setting at or below the max allowed level -- if the conditions are favorable.

now, since the knock detection system relies on harmonics (sound) lets re-phrase this in terms of "speed of sound" -- the harmonics from stock configuration will emit sound at a certain speed(which is?) -- the sensor will relay this information to the DME(how quickly?) -- these are preset prameters based on extensive testing on the bench and under load. so finding the "sweet spot" has already been done, before you buy the car.

if you look at this in terms of knock value (damage capacity) the max have been determined, even with substandard fuel -- as this is expected in certain cases.

so specific cylinder pressures (how much?)have been defined as a baseline of normal (and abnormal) operation for stock conditions. now lets go a step further ---->

as boost is increased and cylinder pressures rise(how much?), the knock harmonics are much greater (how much greater?) than stock, the stock sensors are looking for specific noises (which is?) from the engine and now they are exaggerated, and outside the specific design specs.(but they still work?) -- the reason you stay below the knock threshold on tuned engines is due to the rate of overall intake pressurization, and cylinder pressure increase can not be held in check once the event starts. adequate timing controls are your only safeguard to keep the engine alive.

the "overboosted" knock events happen so quickly (how much more quickly does this happen?) and so far outside of normal operation its more than dangerous -- think of going to a concert and sitting in the nosebleed seats -- and compare that to if you are sitting right next to huge speakers that are being driven by 100,000 watts -- it takes time for the sound to reach the rear seats --- but if youre close your eardrums will take a beating --- and sooner or later --- all you hear is ringing..

by time the stock sensors signal the DME the effective pressures in the cylinder have gone past peak, into the danger area (What is peak, and what is this "danger area")
go it ?

Don't be rude, and please specify these area's.

Originally Posted by Clap135

people should read this a couple of times incase they dont understand it the first time. Then they should realize that shifterboy has access to bmw files.

Thank goodness, Clap says you can answer this =D

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by shifterboy45

ok .. from your constant questioning either you really dont understand engine technology or you being willfully ignorant of certain principles -- i will attempt to clarify your clouded vision as much as possible

in stock form (within design specs) the timing control of DME can detect certain resonances from the engine identified as harmonics related to knock. these frequencies can be minor or heavy depending on calculated factors. based on factory output (stock) the DME is designed to correct (eliminate) the event as quickly as possible, reducing the timing instanteously and recovering to a point below the detected threshold -- and eventually resuming a setting at or below the max allowed level -- if the conditions are favorable.

now, since the knock detection system relies on harmonics (sound) lets re-phrase this in terms of "speed of sound" -- the harmonics from stock configuration will emit sound at a certain speed -- the sensor will relay this information to the DME -- these are preset prameters based on extensive testing on the bench and under load. so finding the "sweet spot" has already been done, before you buy the car.

if you look at this in terms of knock value (damage capacity) the max have been determined, even with substandard fuel -- as this is expected in certain cases.

so specific cylinder pressures have been defined as a baseline of normal (and abnormal) operation for stock conditions. now lets go a step further ---->

as boost is increased and cylinder pressures rise, the knock harmonics are much greater than stock, the stock sensors are looking for specific noises from the engine and now they are exaggerated, and outside the specific design specs. -- the reason you stay below the knock threshold on tuned engines is due to the rate of overall intake pressurization, and cylinder pressure increase can not be held in check once the event starts. adequate timing controls are your only safeguard to keep the engine alive.

the "overboosted" knock events happen so quickly and so far outside of normal operation its more than dangerous -- think of going to a concert and sitting in the nosebleed seats -- and compare that to if you are sitting right next to huge speakers that are being driven by 100,000 watts -- it takes time for the sound to reach the rear seats --- but if youre close your eardrums will take a beating --- and sooner or later --- all you hear is ringing..

by time the stock sensors signal the DME the effective pressures in the cylinder have gone past peak, into the danger area

go it ?

people should read this a couple of times incase they dont understand it the first time. Then they should realize that shifterboy has access to bmw files.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Don't be rude, and please specify these area's.




Thank goodness, Clap says you can answer this =D

Even if specified, what does it prove? Ya dont ask BMW why they made the suspension geometry the way it is?
Why the designed their Heads to flow certain CFM.
Why they used XX duration on their cam profiling.

Best question here, what do those questions have to do with the price of eggs?

You avoid knock when you tune correctly. Its the ideal way.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

Even if specified, what does it prove? Ya dont ask BMW why they made the suspension geometry the way it is?
Why the designed their Heads to flow certain CFM.
Why they used XX duration on their cam profiling.

Best question here, what do those questions have to do with the price of eggs?

You avoid knock when you tune correctly. Its the ideal way.

Because I want to know?

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

It should be renamed...

Official Call Out: Putting all the cards on the table

There still hasn't really been anything brought forth in this discussion. Obviously the way the JB3/4 goes about it, is unethical to most "tuners", but most tuners do not work with an N54 engine. A couple here have advanced timing is some shape or form and that is fine and dandy. But the point still being, we still are not seeing the long term damage from the use of JB3/4's anywhere. Until I see that, all this is purely scepticism. This obviously brings to the table that in fact the sock ECU is capable of handling and working with what the JB tunes put to use.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

There still hasn't really been anything brought forth in this discussion. Obviously the way the JB3/4 goes about it, is unethical to most "tuners", but most tuners do not work with an N54 engine. A couple here have advanced timing is some shape or form and that is fine and dandy. But the point still being, we still are not seeing the long term damage from the use of JB3/4's anywhere. Until I see that, all this is purely scepticism. This obviously brings to the table that in fact the sock ECU is capable of handling and working with what the JB tunes put to use.

Well its only been out for 4 years.

[Dmacc]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

There still hasn't really been anything brought forth in this discussion. Obviously the way the JB3/4 goes about it, is unethical to most "tuners", but most tuners do not work with an N54 engine. A couple here have advanced timing is some shape or form and that is fine and dandy. But the point still being, we still are not seeing the long term damage from the use of JB3/4's anywhere. Until I see that, all this is purely scepticism. This obviously brings to the table that in fact the sock ECU is capable of handling and working with what the JB tunes put to use.

so what you're basically saying is that the N54 is invincible?