[The HACK]

You know, I probably shouldn't participate in this thread because, frankly, I have ZERO experience nor knowledge tuning engines (much less turbocharged engines). You want to talk suspension and brakes, I'm your man. Engines? Not so much.

BUT. I do want to speculate as to why you don't see or hear a lot of JuiceBox failures on these forums. And the reason is pretty simple. Quite a vast majority of 335i owners who put tunes on their car rarely put enough stress on their engines to even come remotely close to the conditions that would cause a catastrophic failure.

Most of the owners you see and read about here that put all these crazy tunes and meth and sprays and intercoolers and whatnot, put all the money into their cars to make 450+hp at the wheels ONLY to show that they can make that much power. Most of the time, in fact, I would say, 99.95% of the time they drive from point A to point B, and occasionally put the car on a dyno just so they can show their friends how much power they're making, and once in a while do a "pull" against a C63 lined up at the light or try to show the E9X M3 next to them who's the "boss." Otherwise the rest of the time the car cruises on the freeway at 70 mph at 2,400 rpm.

Given that sort of use pattern, and unless the engine is tore down, no one is really going to see any real "damage" that an improperly designed (and I'm not taking sides here. My FI car is a 2.5L turbocharged boxster 4. My BMW is a 3.2L NA inline 6) may create. And in fact, for quite the majority of operation, even on California Crap Gas there really isn't going to be any REAL stress or load at sustained high boost that's going to really cause an issue.

I think the problem is going to pop up with cars that, say, goes to the drag strip on a regular basis, or cars that see plenty of track time, where sustained full throttle runs at high RPM for several seconds, some even up to MINUTES, are very common and perhaps happen on a weekly or monthly basis. And that's why the few documented cases of cars where engine(s) have popped, are happening on heavily tracked or dragged cars.

So you can't necessarily point to the fact that few cars on tunes in the last 4+ years have had engine trouble. This isn't like the WRX or EVO or any of the more mature force-induced communities where cars that are heavily tuned DO spend quite a bit of time being used to the fullest of their capabilities. Guys that I've seen at the local road courses with any sort of tune on their N54/N55 based engines typically run a very VERY mild tune, because anything even remotely aggressive is going to result in the car basically shutting itself off within 5 minutes in a session (heck the stock engine/ECU didn't last 5 laps with my friend driving it).

Given those parameters, you will likely not see many complaints of any of these tunes except for ease of installation or customer service issues. And those that do have problems with their tune will either know exactly what caused it and have moved on, or won't have a clue as to what is wrong with their engine as evidence by the dude who had ran his car while the water pump stopped working, warped his head, and can't figure out why his engine is tapping like crazy.

[BrianMN]

Can one of the 5000 JB3 users do us all a big favor? Log timing with the BT tool or JB software. It would be great if someone can do a couple 2-3-4th gear pulls in Map 0, then switch to map 1 or whatever and then do a few more long pulls. I'm willing to bet that the first couple pulls will be knocking like kids on Haloween until it reactively bumps timing down. Mike linked a thread from 2 years ago, and the data showed the a bit of it's lag of adaption; and the Procede had half the events. With the JB4 I believe the current 'strategy" is to send a CAN signal telling it it's running 87octane; but there are 5000 other JB3's out there, and that's the data I'd like to see. I'll do some logs as well and show what CPS offsetting accomplishes proactively.

*Also, please try to have VERY close timestamps on the logs; I can see some sneaky snakes out there who would do 10 pulls to let it knock down before logging the first run. Again, I'm not taking the standpoint that the Juice is going to blow up engines...but still taking the stand that there is NO excuse to not proactively retard timing when raising boost.

Another thing that I think is misunderstood by many, Mike especially, is how CPS offsetting actually works...and how it is and is not co-related to Max Advance setpoint. So perhaps a bit more open-minded studying would be beneficial

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

It doesn't really work that way. Pistons are made of metal. They are either bending or they aren't. If they are bending it won't last more than a few engine revolutions before major damage is done.

Mike

Clap, here is another 'holy crap he actually said that' post for you.

Mike have you not seen the top of a piston that has repeatedly (sp?) seen detonation but has not fully let go?

looks like ass and the engine does not run as well as it should but does not ALWAYS mean you send a rod through the hood.

example pulled off Google



I hope no one here puts a rod through the hood regardless of tune.

I hope no one blows another engine.

I just hope more users can understand what points are being made and make their decisions from there.

and dont give me the 'engines aren't blowing' scenario. Unions have not ruined this country totally yet either, but they are working on it in small chunks. Same scenario with government spending on criminals.

I just heard a facility here in MD spends $37k a year per inmate. WTF!!! Our teachers dont even make that for the most part.

back to tunes.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Can one of the 5000 JB3 users do us all a big favor? Log timing with the BT tool or JB software. It would be great if someone can do a couple 2-3-4th gear pulls in Map 0, then switch to map 1 or whatever and then do a few more long pulls. I'm willing to bet that the first couple pulls will be knocking like kids on Haloween until it reactively bumps timing down. Mike linked a thread from 2 years ago, and the data showed the a bit of it's lag of adaption; and the Procede had half the events. With the JB4 I believe the current 'strategy" is to send a CAN signal telling it it's running 87octane; but there are 5000 other JB3's out there, and that's the data I'd like to see. I'll do some logs as well and show what CPS offsetting accomplishes proactively.

*Also, please try to have VERY close timestamps on the logs; I can see some sneaky snakes out there who would do 10 pulls to let it knock down before logging the first run. Again, I'm not taking the standpoint that the Juice is going to blow up engines...but still taking the stand that there is NO excuse to not proactively retard timing when raising boost.

Another thing that I think is misunderstood by many, Mike especially, is how CPS offsetting actually works...and how it is and is not co-related to Max Advance setpoint. So perhaps a bit more open-minded studying would be beneficial

I was planning on doing some logs tomorrow anyway (JB4). I may post them.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Sniz

Clap, here is another 'holy crap he actually said that' post for you.

Mike have you not seen the top of a piston that has repeatedly (sp?) seen detonation but has not fully let go?

looks like ass and the engine does not run as well as it should but does not ALWAYS mean you send a rod through the hood.

example pulled off Google



I hope no one here puts a rod through the hood regardless of tune.

I hope no one blows another engine.

I just hope more users can understand what points are being made and make their decisions from there.

and dont give me the 'engines aren't blowing' scenario. Unions have not ruined this country totally yet, but they are working on it in small chunks. Same scenario with government spending on criminals.

I just heard a facility here in MD spends $37k a year per inmate. WTF!!! Our teachers dont even make that for the most part.

back to tunes.

My objection is to the ridiculous notion of "detonation -- the silent killer" that some here believe. Good bad or ugly if you have detonation the motor won't last long. That thousands of users have tens of millions of miles without failure tells you they are not knocking. Doesn't get much simpler than that. The rest of this is a mix of bashing, armchair tuning, and noob posts. With a couple decent technical posts mixed in.

And yes, if you reset knock and octane adaptions you'll see relatively increased knock activity with any tune the first couple of pulls.

Mike

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Sniz

Clap, here is another 'holy crap he actually said that' post for you.

Mike have you not seen the top of a piston that has repeatedly (sp?) seen detonation but has not fully let go?

looks like ass and the engine does not run as well as it should but does not ALWAYS mean you send a rod through the hood.

I hope no one here puts a rod through the hood regardless of tune.

I hope no one blows another engine.

I just hope more users can understand what points are being made and make their decisions from there.

and dont give me the 'engines aren't blowing' scenario. Unions have not ruined this country totally yet, but they are working on it in small chunks. Same scenario with government spending on criminals.

I just heard a facility here in MD spends $37k a year per inmate. WTF!!! Our teachers dont even make that for the most part.

back to tunes.

It's not fair that Mike has to defend the BMS products. It's clear that he has limited knowledge and experience with performance engines and even less with tuning...or he's blatantly trying to mislead people, but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt.

He shouldn't be forced to give these technical explanations on things when he doesn't have the knowledge to describe or argue on a technical level. He is VERY good at making things sound like no big deal to the layman and people who don't know anything; but to people with a hint of performance engine theory or tuning it is simply wrong half the time. BMS should really have an engineer over here to argue the way they are choosing to [not] do things.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

It's not fair that Mike has to defend the BMS products. It's clear that he has limited knowledge and experience with performance engines and even less with tuning...or he's blatantly trying to mislead people, but I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt.

He shouldn't be forced to give these technical explanations on things when he doesn't have the knowledge to describe or argue on a technical level. He is VERY good at making things sound like no big deal to the layman and people who don't know anything; but to people with a hint of performance engine theory or tuning it is simply wrong half the time. BMS should really have an engineer over here to argue the way they are choosing to [not] do things.

I agree

back to my Redstripe then out to watch a Raggae band in shitty Bmore. Have a good night all.

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

You know what i mean, the stock ECU can work with what the JB3/4 is doing without causing engine damage. If the tune is used properly.
Look at the quantifiable data.
How many JB3's are out there?
How many miles have they put while tuned?
How much damage are we seeing?

If the ECU was not able to work accordingly we would see engine damage left and right correct?And don't gimme that just wait... Cause i will be waiting way too long as we have already seen, cause that was said a while ago.

first off let be clear about something....

the DME is NOT working WITH this tune ... but struggling to keep its out of bounds operating parameters in check. this in no way indicates proper tuning logic and principles. yes it does work -- yes the DME is correcting its "overperformance" --

it is a waiting game -- just like the DME can correct only so much, sooner or later there will be a condition that presents itself that no electronics can recover from .. purely mechanical ... speed and intensity dictates the results -- if you feel comfortable with a system that is using a reverse fail-safe -- cool

then the idea will be proposed that with sufficient evidence, that blaming the tune for the failure will be forwarded -- vehemently

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

My objection is to the ridiculous notion of "detonation -- the silent killer" that some here believe. Good bad or ugly if you have detonation the motor won't last long. That thousands of users have tens of millions of miles without failure tells you they are not knocking. Doesn't get much simpler than that. The rest of this is a mix of bashing, armchair tuning, and noob posts. With a couple decent technical posts mixed in.

And yes, if you reset knock and octane adaptions you'll see relatively increased knock activity with any tune the first couple of pulls.

Mike

detonation won't always blow a motor. even over 100,000 miles it might not blow a motor. does that mean it isn't happening? piston wear, leak down tests, effed up ringlands, etc. all disagree. but i did forget that the n54 is impervious to the physics associated with all other engines...so i could be wrong lol

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

Then they are not on the same level as our cars and should be compared as such.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

Then they are not on the same level as our cars and should be compared as such.

So your saying, take advantage of a stout motor by abusing it? LOL Sure.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

That is completely wrong. Timing is pulled in small increments. Only if knock sensor feedback indicates higher levels of knock does it resort to pulling 3 degrees. This detection is still early enough in the process to prevent ANY damage.

Mike

Completely wrong? Yet you just said it does resort to pulling 3 degrees how is it wrong? lol

Mike your opinion that it is able to prevent any damage is just that, an opinion. Opinions are like butt holes. Everyone has em and they all stink.

Regardless of how smart you think the stock logic is, it doesnt stem away from the fact that their is a BETTER approach.

This cant actually be proven by showing a log of any tune that doesnt lower timing proactively first time out.

Have one of your trusty brother-in, throw a tune on a stock car, and show me what that very first log looks like. Before it "adapts" LOL

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by FlyLow335i

wow your responses keep getting dumber and dumber.

detonation won't always blow a motor. even over 100,000 miles it might not blow a motor. does that mean it isn't happening? piston wear, leak down tests, effed up ringlands, etc. all disagree. but i did forget that the n54 is impervious to the physics associated with all other engines...so i could be wrong lol

This name calling is really getting out of hand and the overall respect towards other members is completely lacking. Its really a shame how this thread has turned out......

On another note, I love how you (Jake) and laloosh here are the resident armchair tuners. Yet where is that N54 tuning you did for CPE? Or laloosh's? Didn't quite turn out so well right? I heard all about your large turbo tuning attempt. You would think you would show a little more respect to those that still work IN this industry.

Mike

[Clap135]

Before I make you look like an ass even more. Realise that I do not create the hardware to tune. I only tune with what's given to me. If cpe can't or won't make the changes I want cause they have no time then I simply have no.time to waste using their hardware.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

This name calling is really getting out of hand and the overall respect towards other members is completely lacking. Its really a shame how this thread has turned out......

On another note, I love how you (Jake) and laloosh here are the resident armchair tuners. Yet where is that N54 tuning you did for CPE? Or laloosh's? Didn't quite turn out so well right? I heard all about your large turbo tuning attempt. You would think you would show a little more respect to those that still work IN this industry.

Mike

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Before I make you look like an ass even more. Realise that I do not create the hardware to tune. I only tune with what's given to me. If cpe can't or won't make the changes I want cause they have no time then I simply have no.time to waste using their hardware.

lol - he can't seriously be that unintelligent...can he?

as for the "large turbo attempt" - go look at the dyno charts - they are flawless - if things change the second conditions changed as a result of hardware limitations theres nothing a tuner can do...unfortunately that might be over your head as your idea of "in the business" is running an internet website that dropships a tune (something you don't understand or purposely mislead people about).

when you attempt to criticize people you should try and actually make it something logical...thats like me saying "mike you are so dumb - your tune failed on a bicycle...." sounds dumb doesn't it? thats because its apples and oranges...just trying to help your ethug skills as its proven impossible to help you understand actual tuning theory

btw - great PM exchange mike - care to answer the handful of questions you skipped because you don't understand how to answer or realize that if you answer you reveal you are either lying or ignorant?



man that afr looks like shit and that curve is aweful lol

[Forcefed3]

I feel that this thread is about to take a turn for the worse...

[OpenFlash]

Guys,
You do know that is not really Mike who is posting, right? I kind of feel bad for him being the fall guy for Terry.

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

I feel that this thread is about to take a turn for the worse...

it took that turn a while ago...its just so sad to see someone lie to the community so much...his statements show that he has to have some understanding which makes his comments very immoral being that he knowingly misleads his customers to believe that the "tuning" he recommends is actually a tuning solution utilizing actual theory...maybe he figured out how to defy physics...it could happen lol

[Bagelfast]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Guys,
You do know that is not really Mike who is posting, right? I kind of feel bad for him being the fall guy for Terry.

Proof or ban...

[Jake@MOTIV]

Originally Posted by 1LUMI335

Proof or ban...

I honestly hope he's wrong. It would be terrifying to think that someone who develops tuning solutions (not a salesman) actually believes that any knock is an acceptable and intricate part of a tuning solution.

[Forcefed3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Guys,
You do know that is not really Mike who is posting, right? I kind of feel bad for him being the fall guy for Terry.

Proof?

[OpenFlash]

Let me correct myself. It is Mike who is pressing the "Post Reply" button. But he is just cutting and pasting the info that is given to him by Terry. I know because we often see the same exact text posted, word for word, posted by Terry@BMS on the other forums. But since his account is banned here, Mike is the proxy. I really don't think Mike wants to get in a debate with any actual tuner. And Terry plays the game very well. He posts ridiculous things as Mike and then eventually falls back on the "that was Mike's mistake" strategy when the information is eventually proven to be false. This has been going on for a couple of years. Those of us who have fought this battle from the start, know this very well. Clap, Flyinglow, etc,. are just new players in this old game.

Shiv

[Forcefed3]

Unban Terry!