[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Torgus

Do you have AIT 'issues' still when running meth? If so, I would inject more meth or switch to a water/meth concentrate as the water will absorb more heat vs. pure meth. If AITs are low and no knock, there would be no reason to add an IC. All it would add is slight lag and and number of potential points a leak could come from.

Not a lot of room for a down and up pipe from the SC to IC and back to the TB:



Going to have to move a fair amount of stuff around potentially. The air intake and filter are right in your way.

At the end of the day the relatively small(in the grand scheme of things) SC will be your limiting factor. If you can get it to say 400 whp on a dynojet that is probably about all it has in it. Before you overspin the crap out of it.

It will be a custom job and not inexpensive. It will not be a great bang for your buck...but it would be cool to see. I think you should carry on but understand what you will or will not be gaining by adding an IC.

Mount it in front of the radiator or something like a 335i set up with a intercooler under the radiator.

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by Raccoon

That was the conclusion I came too, I can fabricate decently and I make charge pipes all the time for diesels on the engine dyno I run; but decided it's not worth it unless I'm pushing like 12-14 psi , and even then if meth injection is cheaper easier then I would just do that. Shame, bc I nice shiny fmic would look great on the car.

It might fit if the up pipe from the IC to TB went over the VC and IM like the outlet does on the newer BMWs:



It would be ugly and something you have to fiddle with it every time you want to do normal work on the engine.

[Igor.v_a]

Guys, does anyone know how many degrees water-methanol 50/50 reduces the temperature in the intake manifold?

Has anyone installed a temperature sensor in the intake manifold?

It's interesting how much the air heats up due to the supercharger.

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by Igor.v_a

Guys, does anyone know how many degrees water-methanol 50/50 reduces the temperature in the intake manifold?

Has anyone installed a temperature sensor in the intake manifold?

It's interesting how much the air heats up due to the supercharger.

It varies on how much you inject and if it really is 50:50 water meth mix. You can't just mix both parts equally as you will not get 50:50. Meth weighs less then water so if you were wanting to mix a 50/50 water/meth solution and all you did was put in 1.9g of water and 1.9g of meth your actual water/meth mix is 65/35 water/meth.

Temp reduction varies based on your starting AIT temp. The higher the starting temp the more it drops. Finally the temp reduction of your AITs is not all that matters. What the water meth does inside the cylinder is really what matters. You could measure your EGTs if you wanted. Any tuner should be easily able to pull the max power out of engine knowing you are running a meth mix and starting pump octane level.

The smaller the pulley the more the SC spins. Given the size of this SC spinning 'more' means more heat. Similar to a turbo when you spin it close to or outside of it's 'healthy' efficiency islands more heat is generated in the intake tract. This is why meth/E85 is so common on turbo builds.

I pulled the graph for the eaton sc before and made some assumptions in a thread years ago. If you post the graph is should be relatively easy to see when and where it gets out of it's efficiency range IIRC. I assume the warranty is void when running smaller pulleys.

If you run water/meth and don't tune for it is rather worthless. Granted it will make your car very consistent and you will not pull timing for instance(if you even do) when it is hot out.

[shimstack]

Anyone know who makes this kit? This is from Rotrex's site:

https://rotrex.com/centrifugal-super...rcharger-kits/

The SC unit is much smaller and could make more room for intercooler piping.

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by shimstack

Anyone know who makes this kit? This is from Rotrex's site:

https://rotrex.com/centrifugal-super...rcharger-kits/

The SC unit is much smaller and could make more room for intercooler piping.

That SC is TINY and the kit is for an E46. I assume you meant to link the E90 kit they offer: https://rotrex.com/centrifugal-super...rcharger-kits/ looks like the same sized SC.

Rotex makes their own SC as far as I am aware: https://rotrex.com/centrifugal-superchargers/ That was their claim to fame, if you will. I don't think they ever really caught on. It looks smaller than the ESS kit and I have not seen one on a N52 on the forums or in real life. Not to say people have not installed them...

I would want the ESS kit over that by far even if you could make it fit. Heck I would want the largest SC I could fit in the bay that would not kill the stock motor.

That kit comes with an IC. Granted it is tiny as fuck:




As cool, pun intended, an IC looks in the bumper cut out on a E9X vehicle the juice is not worth the squeeze on an N52. You can always inject more water/meth or switch over to E85 or run both.

This guy claims 450whp n52 ESS...I am a bit skeptical: https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comment...52_looks_like/ <--Claims to be running a 3k blower https://vortechsuperchargers.com/pro...ant=7813348993 and a watercooled intake manifold.

I like the Eaton M90 SC on the n52: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1838519 & https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1822319

[Igor.v_a]

Originally Posted by Torgus

It varies on how much you inject and if it really is 50:50 water meth mix. You can't just mix both parts equally as you will not get 50:50. Meth weighs less then water so if you were wanting to mix a 50/50 water/meth solution and all you did was put in 1.9g of water and 1.9g of meth your actual water/meth mix is 65/35 water/meth.

Temp reduction varies based on your starting AIT temp. The higher the starting temp the more it drops. Finally the temp reduction of your AITs is not all that matters. What the water meth does inside the cylinder is really what matters. You could measure your EGTs if you wanted. Any tuner should be easily able to pull the max power out of engine knowing you are running a meth mix and starting pump octane level.

The smaller the pulley the more the SC spins. Given the size of this SC spinning 'more' means more heat. Similar to a turbo when you spin it close to or outside of it's 'healthy' efficiency islands more heat is generated in the intake tract. This is why meth/E85 is so common on turbo builds.

I pulled the graph for the eaton sc before and made some assumptions in a thread years ago. If you post the graph is should be relatively easy to see when and where it gets out of it's efficiency range IIRC. I assume the warranty is void when running smaller pulleys.

If you run water/meth and don't tune for it is rather worthless. Granted it will make your car very consistent and you will not pull timing for instance(if you even do) when it is hot out.

I do not make the water-methanol mixture myself, but buy expensive ready-made Power Juice products.

I use fuel: gasoline 100 Ron + water-methanol.
Injector WMI - 500cc.
I replaced the injectors from the ESS kit (from the S65 engine) with injectors from a Porsche 911GT2.
All this was set up by 22RPD and they say that according to my Log, the fuel system is only 58% loaded.
My boost is 11 psi and when the red line is reached, the WMI injector produces full power of 500cc.

I just want to know how effectively water-methanol cools the fuel-air mixture.

[Torgus]

If you run colored boost juice or anything that is colored it will likely stain your meth lines just as a heads up. I never wanted blue or red lines, I also always mixed my own as it is easy enough.

Originally Posted by Igor.v_a

I just want to know how effectively water-methanol cools the fuel-air mixture.

As every case is semi unique based on the blower used, what size pulley, boost psi resistance, starting ambient air temp, etc. you would need to add temperature sensors before and after where you inject to measure the change in intake charge temps. Ideally a ways before your nozzle and a good ways after to let the meth mix in with the intake charge. Remember to keep the whatever temp sensor you have shielded so it doesn't get methanol sprayed directly on it and or coated via the intake charge mixed with the water/meth. Otherwise, the IAT sensor will read false temps if it gets soaked in methanol that is starting to evaporate.

It matters less how much cooling the water meth it is doing to your intake charge in all honesty. You run water/meth to mainly increase your effective octane and lower in cylinder temperatures which will help reduce timing pulls/knock it is more of an added bonus the charge air is cooler imo. Depending on how the engine management is set up you may want to put the meth injection after your AIT sensor(if you have one).

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Torgus

That SC is TINY and the kit is for an E46. I assume you meant to link the E90 kit they offer: https://rotrex.com/centrifugal-super...rcharger-kits/ looks like the same sized SC.

Rotex makes their own SC as far as I am aware: https://rotrex.com/centrifugal-superchargers/ That was their claim to fame, if you will. I don't think they ever really caught on. It looks smaller than the ESS kit and I have not seen one on a N52 on the forums or in real life. Not to say people have not installed them...

I would want the ESS kit over that by far even if you could make it fit. Heck I would want the largest SC I could fit in the bay that would not kill the stock motor.

That kit comes with an IC. Granted it is tiny as fuck:




As cool, pun intended, an IC looks in the bumper cut out on a E9X vehicle the juice is not worth the squeeze on an N52. You can always inject more water/meth or switch over to E85 or run both.

This guy claims 450whp n52 ESS...I am a bit skeptical: https://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comment...52_looks_like/ <--Claims to be running a 3k blower https://vortechsuperchargers.com/pro...ant=7813348993 and a watercooled intake manifold.

I like the Eaton M90 SC on the n52: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1838519 & https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1822319

It's real - the watecooled manifold is build by StageFP.

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It's real - the watecooled manifold is build by StageFP.

I believe it's real now given the blower he is using. I questioned the dyno but if he is using a YSi SC it should be able to make it. Those flow plenty and he should have more than 450 whp in it with that blower. If you look at what YSi's dyno on other platforms you will see what I mean, granted they are generally used on larger displacement motors but that does not matter much.

However for 450whp he paid way more than he had to in the E9x chassis. You can make that on stock turbos on an N54 for instance with just fueling upgrades and a SS controller. I know the feeling of being down the rabbit hole and just continuing to dump money in.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Torgus

I believe it's real now given the blower he is using. I questioned the dyno but if he is using a YSi SC it should be able to make it. Those flow plenty and he should have more than 450 whp in it with that blower. If you look at what YSi's dyno on other platforms you will see what I mean, granted they are generally used on larger displacement motors but that does not matter much.

However for 450whp he paid way more than he had to in the E9x chassis. You can make that on stock turbos on an N54 for instance with just fueling upgrades and a SS controller. I know the feeling of being down the rabbit hole and just continuing to dump money in.

He's a user on here - but StageFP built and tuned it with him. As far as I know, it's just the blower, pulley and the custom manifold. Probably 8K in - which isn't cheap, but doing that on a ratted out N54 with rattling WGs, bad injectors and fuel pumps isn't that enticing either.

Edit:
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=58

[Igor.v_a]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

He's a user on here - but StageFP built and tuned it with him. As far as I know, it's just the blower, pulley and the custom manifold. Probably 8K in - which isn't cheap, but doing that on a ratted out N54 with rattling WGs, bad injectors and fuel pumps isn't that enticing either.

Edit:
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=58

So he also put in Porsche GT2 injectors and a fuel pump from a Dodge hellcat

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

He's a user on here - but StageFP built and tuned it with him. As far as I know, it's just the blower, pulley and the custom manifold. Probably 8K in - which isn't cheap, but doing that on a ratted out N54 with rattling WGs, bad injectors and fuel pumps isn't that enticing either.

Edit:
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=58

I owned both, I would pick the N54 any day of the week but to each their own. The n54's $/hp or bang for your bucks is highest among the E9X engines. All E9X are at the same age. The n52 being the lowest cost entry to the platform. I have seen plenty of clapped out N54s and N52s as we all have.

N54 fuel pumps are not known for going bad? People replace them because it is inexpensive for a TON more flow.

8k in an N54 is over 750whp no wastegate issues. But let's not make this into an n52/n54 thing. I only brought up the n54 because it can make that HP on stock turbos and has for 9+ years. IIRC the max stock turbo record was 530whp 610 wtq or somewhere around there. My point was there are less expensive ways to get there on this platform. His record is still impressive and the highest for a SC'd n52(that I have seen) and I bet the car is a blast to drive.

Originally Posted by Igor.v_a

he also put in Porsche GT2 injectors

The 590cc injectors? Probably fine as long as he does not want to run E85. I wonder why they did not go larger? Maybe the DME is the limitation with scaling or something.

Originally Posted by Igor.v_a

a fuel pump from a Dodge hellcat

That is just a walbro 525/535 I have 2 in my bucket. Readily available, $150 bucks or so + whatever fittings you need.



Be interesting to see how far he can push the blower and motor. I think the turbo N52 guys said the block lets go around 450whp/400wtq right?

[shimstack]

DigiDon Had over 500whp going for a while:

Not bad for over 2X stock hp on an engine not built for boost.

[Raccoon]

Originally Posted by Seattlesquash

You can keep mid ones. I added headers bud kept two of my converters and flow great w no smell.

Well I'm convinced.

It's been brought up before here about the ess tune/header issue . They mention a 02 feedback issue. Which seems vague. Does Anyone understand this more thoroughly?

My best guess is since they do Alpha N tune and ditch the MAF and only use the MAP/Temp I can see the potential for the headers to cause a slight drop in boost(as they tend to do) & the software may think it's pushing less air, atleast that's what makes since to me.
However, I've read that these cars use wideband 02s and are capable of adjusting even at full throttle. I'm sorta confused as to why there is such a problem if there is some feedback adjustability. Unless the scavenging pulses cause some undesired effect on the o2 reading.

I'm just gonna have to go with 22rpd for a myriad of reasons.

[Igor.v_a]

So guys, I'm done with setting up my car.
22RPD and I tried different options:
different ignition timing
Different opening of Disa (in the factory setting Disa opens at 4500 prm), we tried opening at 3450 and 5500 prm.
Tried different Vanos settings including Vanos settings from N54.
The result is as follows:
368 whp and 406 Nm.
My configuration:
Engine N52b30
automatic transmission ZF 6hp21
supercharger ESS gen3
Pulley 3.4 in
Boost 11 psi
Porsche GT2 fuel injectors
Intake manifold N52 stage 3
Equal-length exhaust manifold (you call them headers)
WMI from AEM, wmi 500cc injector.
water-methanol mixture 50/50
Gasoline 100ron (Europe)
setting 22RPD
Attached is a graph from the dyno:
Disa 3450 prm (red)vs Disa oem 4500 prm (blue)

[Seattlesquash]

Great Numbers. And no reason to go further but if you chose to get the n54 intake I bet it will get you to 400 whp. I only mention this as I used to be on the 3 stage earlier in my tuning. When I switched I bumped 50whp with new tune, n54 intake, upgraded rear muffler (magnaflow + upgraded/less restrictive pipework from mid w two new vibrant resonators) and the meth added. Also, is your trans holding up ok? I had to change my clutch after 350 whp/350 wtq due to slipping (manual though). Another advantage with the single stage intake is that you have (or at least I had) less turbulent/linear flow which helped to tune for the w - meth.

[Seattlesquash]

Also, to add my take on the ability/durability of the n52 engine. I had mine tuned since 25k miles, Supercharged for 5-6 years with more than doubled stock horsepower and now at 185k miles can still get over 30mpg on freeway driving, and sub 0.75qt oil consumption over 5k and never skips a beat! I always given it the maintenance it deserves, good quality fluids at non extended intervals, filters, proper warmups, no stupid cold revving. Best car I ever bought!

[Seattlesquash]

Originally Posted by Igor.v_a

I do not make the water-methanol mixture myself, but buy expensive ready-made Power Juice products.

I use fuel: gasoline 100 Ron + water-methanol.
Injector WMI - 500cc.
I replaced the injectors from the ESS kit (from the S65 engine) with injectors from a Porsche 911GT2.
All this was set up by 22RPD and they say that according to my Log, the fuel system is only 58% loaded.
My boost is 11 psi and when the red line is reached, the WMI injector produces full power of 500cc.

I just want to know how effectively water-methanol cools the fuel-air mixture.

It’s interesting to see several of you guys all had to upgrade your injectors. I am 99% sure I am still on my ESS provided ones, and never had a fuel delivery issue. What issue did you run into? Just going lean or a hesitation throughout the rpm band?

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by Seattlesquash

It’s interesting to see several of you guys all had to upgrade your injectors. I am 99% sure I am still on my ESS provided ones, and never had a fuel delivery issue. What issue did you run into? Just going lean or a hesitation throughout the rpm band?

IIRC you never want to run a fuel injector past 85-90% of it's CC/min rating to give some headroom.

Those Porsche GT2 fuel injectors are 590cc, assuming the right year I believe. Injector calculator online says they are good up to about 550BHP or 460 whp on 93.

https://deatschwerks.com/pages/fuel-injector-calculator


What are the injectors ESS supplies in their kits out of curiosity? Do you know what model and cc flow?



edit: The above injector calc were at 42psi not the 72psi at 7spsi they will flow much more.

[Seattlesquash]

Originally Posted by Torgus

IIRC you never want to run a fuel injector past 85-90% of it's CC/min rating to give some headroom.

Those Porsche GT2 fuel injectors are 590cc, assuming the right year I believe. Injector calculator online says they are good up to about 550BHP or 460 whp on 93.

https://deatschwerks.com/pages/fuel-injector-calculator


What are the injectors ESS supplies in their kits out of curiosity? Do you know what model and cc flow?

Don’t have the the specifics, sorry, but as far as I recall I thought they were the m3 ones (model year?). Yeah I can see issue leaving no room at the top but Zach is a pretty experienced tuner/and computer guy and know we watched everything throughout the dyno tuning, so imagine he
would have told me the tolerances were pushed. So I may have been lucky, and perhaps the meth help unload the demand which I introduced once past 350whp. But since far from expert I should not speculate on that. You clearly know a lot more than I do about this and I appreciate your knowledge in your posts, so definitely curious on your thoughts. I can check w tuner too and see… guessing they created some of the initial files off mine given how much time we spent initially.

[Igor.v_a]

Originally Posted by Seattlesquash

It’s interesting to see several of you guys all had to upgrade your injectors. I am 99% sure I am still on my ESS provided ones, and never had a fuel delivery issue. What issue did you run into? Just going lean or a hesitation throughout the rpm band?

Initially, I configured SC, without WMI, and we ran into limitations on the injectors.
I asked Zack why Squash was doing well and I wasn't.
Zack replied because Squash has a WMI 1000cc injector.