[M5Rick]

Okay then, this synthetic fuel that Germany is going to delve into more is interesting but they could have put a better case to the eu bods that hits it on the nail more in that working and middle class people simply won't be able to afford EV's.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

... that working and middle class people simply won't be able to afford EV's.

We all know the working and middle class don't need personal transportation, only the elite can have a personal car now, you know the kind BGM is, where have you been /sarcasm

Us middle class plebs just have to walk or eat your children, like the middle ages?

[BGM-M3COMP]

You guys are terrible at debates.

They’re going to have “affordable” ev’s on the way. Hence the whole “electrifying America” by 2035.

You guys keep judging todays results. We all know the automotive industry moves very fast, just like electronics, cell phones, computers etc. you’ll never have the latest one.

So which facet of this transition are you guys really whining about?

Cost to buy? Cost to own? Charging? Electrical fires?

All I hear is constant whining. If you don’t want an ev don’t get one. You’re not stopping what they’re doing so what is the point to the whining?

[Murf the Surf]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

You guys are terrible at debates.

They’re going to have “affordable” ev’s on the way. Hence the whole “electrifying America” by 2035.

You guys keep judging todays results. We all know the automotive industry moves very fast, just like electronics, cell phones, computers etc. you’ll never have the latest one.

So which facet of this transition are you guys really whining about?

Cost to buy? Cost to own? Charging? Electrical fires?

All I hear is constant whining. If you don’t want an ev don’t get one. You’re not stopping what they’re doing so what is the point to the whining?

The reality is that a great many replies to your posts have been very sound arguments with respect to the viability of government mandates to illuminate the production of ICE at some point in the near future. This is a car forum and it would be expected that issues like this would be debated as there are differing views, but also lots of people with experience that bring up real challenges to these hard deadlines.

The fact that you Troll is your choice, your need to use abusive and insulting language towards those with a different view is unwarranted. You're quite the keyboard warrior, and I suspect you don't have the confidence to talk to folks like that in person.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Murf the Surf

The reality is that a great many replies to your posts have been very sound arguments with respect to the viability of government mandates to illuminate the production of ICE at some point in the near future. This is a car forum and it would be expected that issues like this would be debated as there are differing views, but also lots of people with experience that bring up real challenges to these hard deadlines.

The fact that you Troll is your choice, your need to use abusive and insulting language towards those with a different view is unwarranted. You're quite the keyboard warrior, and I suspect you don't have the confidence to talk to folks like that in person.

You guys aren’t debating in most cases, look at some of the subjects regarding ev. You’re anti ev so you refuse to see it. You take defense when someone throws back at you. At least accept that.

I don’t take defense when I see what you guys post unless it’s wrong information. When you guys mock the subject or myself, I fight back.

And you’re wrong. The way I talk and act on this forum is exactly how I am in real life.

Because like you said there are many keyboard warriors. People say one thing but in real life don’t say shit. And I witnessed that first hand. A guy talking so much shit about me, then I show up to the meet and he stood far away and never made eye contact with me. And I’m not even a big guy. I just have confidence. You guys should learn how to gain some of that yourselves.

[spidy512]

Good times here.

Whats interesting is folks actually think we will be ready to drop ICE in 2035. Or that we actual will. Maybe some other tech may create another paradigm shift and ecars all of a sudden suck (doubtful, but still out there...). Who knows.

But, mark my words. We won't be ready. It isn't going to happen. And everyone knows it (even the ones supporting it). We simply don't have a mindset in this world or care about this planet enough as proven over and over here in the comments. We prefer to argue our way into a black hole instead.

See ya in 12 years to gloat...
josh

[BGM-M3COMP]

There will still be a used market filled with ice in 2035. Wow everyone is misunderstanding this.

Have fun in 2035 guys!

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Lol. Okay debate this.

On numerous threads it has been shown that EV battery cost ($/kWh) has come down the cost curve to around $130 per kWh and the cost has basically flattened out (i.e. reached its lowest price). That's for lithium ion and it took about 15 years to get down the curve. Battery energy density has not greatly improved over that time, just the cost to manufacture has dropped. Given the mass market acceptance of EV is keyed on (a) reducing range anxiety, and (b) lowering recharge rates, the lithium ion battery has plateau'd where there will be not much gain in recharge speed or range. To get more range requires larger batteries, which requires longer recharge time, more weight, and more cost. Physics and chemistry limit battery performance and cost. As more lithium is extracted, the unit price for the minerals increases, driving lithium ion cost back up the curve.

So, the solution to range and recharge rates is a new battery technology, which for now and for the past 10 years is the magical solid state battery. It's just on the horizon so we've been promised. Yet to expect solid state batteries cost per kWh to start where lithium ends ($130) and then drop significalty is not sound reasoning based on the economics of manufacturing. Which means we are in for another 15 years for solid state batteries to come down the manufacturing cost curve.

So, to summarize, what all those words mean is the cost to manufacture EV batteries is not going to drop much by 2035 AND offer better range and faster recharge rates. That means EV retail prices are not going to change much where the consumer decides switching from ICE to EV is beneficial to them. All of this is understood and evidenced by forcing the switch via legislation.

Your counter argument with specific science and economics based reasoning?

That’s all and well and you actually made good points but think about it this way. If what you’re saying is an immediate problem, what do you think is their “plan b” when 2035 comes?

This technology will only advance faster with each year that passes. If it took one technological advancement to happen in 15 years, the next would be half that time. Look at how far medicine has come. If easy -e was alive today, he’d be able to live until 90.


Tesla is already making a “25k” ev. When will it be out that’s a different story. Elon promised the ev semi in 2017 and it came out in 2022? So 5 years later.

Kia, Hyundai, Honda are all on board with making ev. You’re assuming they’re all gonna be 50-60k+? They won’t be.

Are you talking about long term past warranty? That remains a mystery.

I feel like car makers would want their customers to buy and dump cars after 100k, recycle what you got and get something new.

Again is it right? Who knows. Is it safe? Who knows. That’s not the point. Or certainly not my point.

I’m arguing that this is happening no matter how you dissect it. If you’re challenging this theory by fear, I have no words for you. Don’t buy one.

You can only control what YOU can control.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

There will still be a used market filled with ice in 2035. Wow everyone is misunderstanding this.

Have fun in 2035 guys!

Where is your Plaid you had reserved since last year? Delivery wait is now less than month from order date.

Not adding up?

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Where is your Plaid you had reserved since last year? Delivery wait is now less than month from order date.

Not adding up?

I put my deposit and I’m waiting. I want the c8z first.

Call them up for me and ask them what’s going on. I dont need to lie about the cars I have “on order” if that’s what you’re implying. I don’t need to lie to impress fucking dudes a bmw forum.

[KRS_SN]

Many people don't want an ev now. Talking about it as 'fear' isn't accurate. I've test driven the y and s and travelled 1000s of miles in a mates model s. Doesn't make me want one/Doesn't appeal to me or my use case. Currently I have free choice to say no and buy what I want
By repeatedly talking about 2035 we are reminded of that free choice ending and that's where the problem lies. EVs need government mandates and subsidies etc to move ahead. Its an agenda that probably most folk on the street think is a pie in the sky.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Not one word I typed had anything to do with "fear". I simply asked you to address how the cost, range, and recharge performance of EV is going change so there is mass market acceptance of the vehicles. I even gave you a path to have the debate. You failed miserably; all you provided is supposition, irrelevant tangent comments, and pointless comments.

Failed miserably at what? Where did I say you were wrong, if you are in fact wrong, anywhere in that post?

I never argued anyone about cost, what’s better for the planet environment. I’m talking about how automotive history advances. I’m talking about what you can do when 2035 happens. I’m talking about accepting what’s to come since you can’t do anything about what’s about to happen.

You’re talking this shit as if the government is reading going on shit that guy is right. Ev is not ready. Let’s go back to ice.

So yeah I guess all the whining was real. Whining and fucking bitching.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Many people don't want an ev now. Talking about it as 'fear' isn't accurate. I've test driven the y and s and travelled 1000s of miles in a mates model s. Doesn't make me want one/Doesn't appeal to me or my use case. Currently I have free choice to say no and buy what I want
By repeatedly talking about 2035 we are reminded of that free choice ending and that's where the problem lies. EVs need government mandates and subsidies etc to move ahead. Its an agenda that probably most folk on the street think is a pie in the sky.

They announced the 2035 ban when? 2020?

They gave everyone 15 years. Not 15 months or 15 days.

This technology will get better over time. Will it be fully ready by 2035? Probably not but we’ll be close.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

They announced the 2035 ban when? 2020?

They gave everyone 15 years. Not 15 months or 15 days.

This technology will get better over time. Will it be fully ready by 2035? Probably not but we’ll be close.

Tesla is the ev leader..Look where the tesla is.... its been over 5 years since it became mass market and it pretty much churns out the same looking vehicle and models,
throw in a niche Plaid here or a raven there ..take away some radar or performance brakes there from mass sellers..
if this is how much can change in 5 + years there really is no hope in 15 years.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Tesla is the ev leader..Look where the tesla is.... its been over 5 years since it became mass market and it pretty much churns out the same looking vehicle and models,
throw in a niche Plaid here or a raven there ..take away some radar or performance brakes there from mass sellers..
if this is how much can change in 5 + years there really is no hope in 15 years.

Brother look at when the model s was first debuted and when it became the fastest production car in the world. Look at its range too.

Look at what the tesla supercharging network has brought. I think without that tesla would be irrelevant.

The model 3/y are the best selling ev’s to this day. They’re doing something right.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

The model 3/y are the best selling ev’s to this day. They’re doing something right.

This is like going to a craft-brew web forum and explaining that Budweiser is the best selling beer in the US. While true, it doesn't' really say much about the beer, of the customers that drink bud.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

This is like going to a craft-brew web forum and explaining that Budweiser is the best selling beer in the US. While true, it doesn't' really say much about the beer, of the customers that drink bud.

And just like that beer company, car makers are trying to make money.

People complain about the constant rise from an already expensive tesla and yet ITS STILL THE BEST SELLING EV TODAY.

so yeah I’ll have a Budweiser on that note!

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Tesla is the ev leader..Look where the tesla is.... its been over 5 years since it became mass market and it pretty much churns out the same looking vehicle and models,
throw in a niche Plaid here or a raven there ..take away some radar or performance brakes there from mass sellers..
if this is how much can change in 5 + years there really is no hope in 15 years.

I wouldn’t use Tesla as a way to estimate future industry progress over a 15 year span. Each manufacturer will have their own priorities and competitive motivators that will lead to interesting solutions being attempted to all of the challenges to getting us to the 2035 goal — a goal that only covers a few states in the US BTW.

I’ve driven Tesla’s on a test drive. Not a car I’m excited about and not one I’d own. I really enjoy my BMW 530e PHEV though and I’m sure I’ll enjoy a BMW BEV. Tesla is too focused on building cars for people who hate driving. That’s OK, I’m just not their target consumer. BMW is building EVs for people like me though… And that’s the same in the ICE world. A Toyota doesn’t drive like a BMW and a BMW doesn’t drive like a Porsche.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

And just like that beer company, car makers are trying to make money.

People complain about the constant rise from an already expensive tesla and yet ITS STILL THE BEST SELLING EV TODAY.

so yeah I’ll have a Budweiser on that note!

Like beer companies, some car companies also want to make a good product.

Like beer consumers, some car customers also want to buy a good product.

profit leder =/= good product, They can co-exist, but it's not a predictive factor.

volume leader =/= good product, They can co-exist, but it's not a predictive factor.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Brother look at when the model s was first debuted and when it became the fastest production car in the world. Look at its range too.

Look at what the tesla supercharging network has brought. I think without that tesla would be irrelevant.

The model 3/y are the best selling ev’s to this day. They’re doing something right.

They've done many things right. It's worth keeping in mind that standing still is running backwards as things stand.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

I wouldn’t use Tesla as a way to estimate future industry progress over a 15 year span. Each manufacturer will have their own priorities and competitive motivators that will lead to interesting solutions being attempted to all of the challenges to getting us to the 2035 goal — a goal that only covers a few states in the US BTW.

I’ve driven Tesla’s on a test drive. Not a car I’m excited about and not one I’d own. I really enjoy my BMW 530e PHEV though and I’m sure I’ll enjoy a BMW BEV. Tesla is too focused on building cars for people who hate driving. That’s OK, I’m just not their target consumer. BMW is building EVs for people like me though… And that’s the same in the ICE world. A Toyota doesn’t drive like a BMW and a BMW doesn’t drive like a Porsche.

Agree with 99% of what you say
Regarding the '2035 goal'
It's really not a goal that many people based on what they hear and see think can be realistic.. or else there won't be debates..
many even don't even see it as a goal that they subscribe to.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

They've done many things right. It's worth keeping in mind that standing still is running backwards as things stand.

I'm not saying they're the best car brand in the world. I like my model 3 but it's not like i jerk off to it like some people do to their BMW's here.

They still run the EV world PERIOD. What they have done since the debut of the model s no one has reached yet. There is no ifs ands or buts about it.

The fact that their model 3/y, as expensive as it was when it first debuted, to the sudden price increases each model year, has been the best selling EV, says something.

It means those who want to experience this, have decided that there isn't anything else out there that offers what tesla offers at that price point. Which is what i was referencing months ago. Some people might have way better build quality, ok but then the performance and range isn't there. Some might have decent or on par performance with tesla, but then the range isn't there. Some people might find similar range as tesla, but the performance and price point isn't there.

I kept on saying it will take 5-8 years for car makers to fully catch up and surpass tesla if tesla, like you said, decides to just stand still.

If tesla finally brings out that 25k EV, depending on the specs, it will keep tesla ahead of everyone else. The charging network put tesla on the map, no pun intended.


This will get better as time moves on. Trust me. It doesn't look like that but it already has, and will.

2035 seems close but it's still far away. Wait until we get closer to 2030 you guys will see. Then you all can say, holy shit that fucking shithead BGM knew it all along.