[Patton250]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Agree with 99% of what you say
Regarding the '2035 goal'
It's really not a goal that many people based on what they hear and see think can be realistic.. or else there won't be debates..
many even don't even see it as a goal that they subscribe to.

This is kind of frustrating. It’s not a goal. It’s a mandate forced upon capitalists and consumers by governments. I wish the government would force all of you people to buy my products by 2035. I make health products that if you install them in your house, you live healthier. Maybe government should force people to be healthier or at least make a law that it’s going to be forced on them by 2035? I bet if they made such a law, I’d have the number one selling products of my kind in the history at my industry.

I do like Elon musk, and his company Tesla, but does anyone here think that company would’ve made it out be anywhere close to where it is today had it not been for all the tax incentives his products got? Of course not. I’m not even going to entertain a discussion on that. We all know what the truth is. Well, it’s only going to get worse as they start to force this on people. But I’m still banking cooler heads will prevail in the not too distant future. Let consumers decide what they want. Free capitalism. It works every time it’s tried.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

I'm not saying they're the best car brand in the world. I like my model 3 but it's not like i jerk off to it like some people do to their BMW's here.

They still run the EV world PERIOD. What they have done since the debut of the model s no one has reached yet. There is no ifs ands or buts about it.

The fact that their model 3/y, as expensive as it was when it first debuted, to the sudden price increases each model year, has been the best selling EV, says something.


It means those who want to experience this, have decided that there isn't anything else out there that offers what tesla offers at that price point. Which is what i was referencing months ago. Some people might have way better build quality, ok but then the performance and range isn't there. Some might have decent or on par performance with tesla, but then the range isn't there. Some people might find similar range as tesla, but the performance and price point isn't there.

I kept on saying it will take 5-8 years for car makers to fully catch up and surpass tesla if tesla, like you said, decides to just stand still.

If tesla finally brings out that 25k EV, depending on the specs, it will keep tesla ahead of everyone else. The charging network put tesla on the map, no pun intended.


This will get better as time moves on. Trust me. It doesn't look like that but it already has, and will.

2035 seems close but it's still far away. Wait until we get closer to 2030 you guys will see. Then you all can say, holy shit that fucking shithead BGM knew it all along.

Err no.

Do you even follow them?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/202...h-ev-industry/



Plus in the last few hours another 3k slashed off model y
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ond-time-year/

Also if the past few hours

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/06/tesl...-9percent.html

[BGM-M3COMP]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...lling%20models.

The Tesla Model Y was the world’s most popular plug-in electric vehicle with worldwide unit sales of roughly 771,300 in 2022. That year, deliveries of Tesla's Model 3 and Model Y have surpassed 1.2 million, which was a year-over-year increase of 36.77 percent for Tesla's best-selling models.


https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/03...%20of%20growth.

The Tesla Model Y is #1 again in the electric vehicle market. Registrations were up 10% year over year (YoY) in January, to over 662,000 units. China’s market was the main driver of growth.

https://www.thehealthyjournal.com/fa...ld%20in%202021.

Who is leading in electric car sales?
At the top of the list of electric car models sold is Tesla's Model 3, with approximately 501,000 sold in 2021.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Err no.

Do you even follow them?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/202...h-ev-industry/



Plus in the last few hours another 3k slashed off model y
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ond-time-year/

Also if the past few hours

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/06/tesl...-9percent.html

market analyst to CEO:"We are market leaders and our sales figures are booming"
CEo to marketing team "lets slash prices."


This conversation ^ has never occured in any healthy business in any market segment, ever in recorded history. That it has happened at tesla is pretty, interesting...

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

market analyst to CEO:"We are market leaders and our sales figures are booming"
CEo to marketing team "lets slash prices."


This conversation ^ has never occured in any healthy business in any market segment, ever in recorded history. That it has happened at tesla is pretty, interesting...

Actually, this has occurred in many boardrooms across the country and it is a valid competitive strategy for a short time or for a long time depending on the goals of the company.

The classic term for this is a “loss leader” pricing strategy. Long term implementation of that strategy is done to drive sales in a more profitable section of the business (like selling a printer below cost to make it up selling overpriced ink). Another use of this is to attempt to corner a market early to maintain dominance once you’ve become entrenched and can push prices up.

Tesla may be leading the EV sales race right now, but they aren’t leading the car sales race overall and they have competitive headwinds that are getting very strong as traditional automakers aggressively move into EVs. Capitalizing on their current lead and branding might allow them to gain more new customers who will buy another Tesla and not end up in the EV of another brand in the future.

Business 101

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Actually, this has occurred in many boardrooms across the country and it is a valid competitive strategy for a short time or for a long time depending on the goals of the company.

The classic term for this is a “loss leader” pricing strategy. Long term implementation of that strategy is done to drive sales in a more profitable section of the business (like selling a printer below cost to make it up selling overpriced ink). Another use of this is to attempt to corner a market early to maintain dominance once you’ve become entrenched and can push prices up.

Tesla may be leading the EV sales race right now, but they aren’t leading the car sales race overall and they have competitive headwinds that are getting very strong as traditional automakers aggressively move into EVs. Capitalizing on their current lead and branding might allow them to gain more new customers who will buy another Tesla and not end up in the EV of another brand in the future.

Business 101

Did yo umiss that they have slashed everything? That's not a loss leader strategy. Loss leaders are selling Lays potato chips for less than normal cost, knowing you will make it back on soda beer and hot dogs.


Home depot used to sell sheet OSB for a loss, but if you are buying OSB, you are also buying nails, other lumber, and usually siding or roofing, and lots of other profitable goods.

Tesla is selling cars, it has slashed the prices on all their cars, all of them.

[StradaRedlands]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Okay then, this synthetic fuel that Germany is going to delve into more is interesting but they could have put a better case to the eu bods that hits it on the nail more in that working and middle class people simply won't be able to afford EV's.

I can't imagine this stuff will be anywhere near as cheap as refined dino-juice. Even if only 50% more expensive in Europe (there will be zero interest in North America) that will be some expensive fuel!

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by StradaRedlands

I can't imagine this stuff will be anywhere near as cheap as refined dino-juice. Even if only 50% more expensive in Europe (there will be zero interest in North America) that will be some expensive fuel!

what is strange in all of this is that we already have organic carbon neutral ICE fuel. Henry ford developed his first ICE to run on it: Ethanol. It's cheaper than regular gas per gallon and easy to make too (simple infrastructure).

Seems the government doesn't want us to use it, for some strange reason. Perhaps they need to use a mandate.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Did yo umiss that they have slashed everything? That's not a loss leader strategy. Loss leaders are selling Lays potato chips for less than normal cost, knowing you will make it back on soda beer and hot dogs.


Home depot used to sell sheet OSB for a loss, but if you are buying OSB, you are also buying nails, other lumber, and usually siding or roofing, and lots of other profitable goods.

Tesla is selling cars, it has slashed the prices on all their cars, all of them.

Car companies have had loss leader strategies…

As I said earlier, it is driven by them attempting to head off competition by capitalizing on their brand lead right now. A sign they expect competition to be stiff so they are trying to get out ahead of it.

Will it work? I don’t have a crystal ball.

But them feeling the pressure means the automotive landscape for EVs is about to go through a lot of radical adjustments in Tesla’s forecasts and they don’t think they have a clear long term competitive advantage that allows them to charge a premium. They aren’t Apple who can raise prices during a recession where Android OEMs are cutting them due to softening demand.

In economics terms this is called “price elasticity of demand”… Apple can charge more because their demand isn’t tied very much to price. So they don’t need to join those Android OEMs in price cuts when the market goes soft and they can instead raise them to maintain their profit margin as inflation undercuts it.

This is all Economics 101

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Actually, this has occurred in many boardrooms across the country and it is a valid competitive strategy for a short time or for a long time depending on the goals of the company.

The classic term for this is a “loss leader” pricing strategy. Long term implementation of that strategy is done to drive sales in a more profitable section of the business (like selling a printer below cost to make it up selling overpriced ink). Another use of this is to attempt to corner a market early to maintain dominance once you’ve become entrenched and can push prices up.

Tesla may be leading the EV sales race right now, but they aren’t leading the car sales race overall and they have competitive headwinds that are getting very strong as traditional automakers aggressively move into EVs. Capitalizing on their current lead and branding might allow them to gain more new customers who will buy another Tesla and not end up in the EV of another brand in the future.

Business 101

That's how i see it.

They see their competition move in on this EV race so they slash prices to stay on top of the game. There is no doubt there are many MANY fans of teslas but most likely can't afford it, or justify the price to get the best bang for buck (even at it's current price point, or before the price cut) EV on the market today. That's why the 3/Y has done so well.

It might not be smart from a business standpoint, but that's not my forte. The only thing i see is that they see competition coming, so they cut prices to attract NEW buyers who might not want to introduce themselves to the EV world at the price point tesla has normalized in.

Smart but maybe not? Either way, elon is smart. So he knows what he's doing.

Car makers will catch up i'm sure. That's what i been saying. I can't wait to see this "25k tesla" elon has been cooking the past couple of years. He needs to introduce this to keep his EV crown on his head.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Listen, I'm not trying to attack you here, but numerous times you've stated you've "blown away" other Posters when they've "debated" you, so you stand to take a test on your debating skills. I clearly pointed out my position is EV are not going to get less expensive because the cost of battery technology is not going to get less expensive than where lithium ion is now. The cost of producing EV is mostly in the cost of the battery. I pointed to the economics of manufacturing that any new battery technology will start at the top of the production cost curve and take the same time to come down the cost curve as lithium ion has. But to make EV less expensive the cost per kWh needs to come way down below where wet lithium is now and dry lithium solid-state batteries need to have much more energy density.

Your counter argument to my position is (a) Tesla has made a $25K EV, but "it's just not out yet", and (b) the Japanese and Koreans are going to sell EV, where you postulate just because they are Asian manufacturers, they won't sell $50K - $60K EV.

That's not debating. You offered no facts or reasonable position based on sound business or engineering principles why EV batteries will become less expensive to be cost competitive with ICE (assuming governments just don't tax the living shit out of gasoline and diesel). That's why you failed the debate.

All of your debate responses to any of us are void of reasoning other than "the EV shit's going to happen, lmaooo" and "I love 2035!" Your newest response is now that we are all "EV haters" because we "fear" the [...]

All valid points, but unless you enjoy raising your blood pressure, I’d just block him at this point.

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Nah, my BP is just fine. But thanks for your concern. He's somewhat entertaining, like a circus act.

Here ya go

[zx10guy]

Been sitting by eating the popcorn to see if anyone would bring this point up. Yes, there is a 2035 mandate. Many would agree based on how EV tech is progressing that it'll miss the target of being a true replacement for ICE vehicles by that date if it even ever does. But this 2035 mandate isn't set in stone. Yes, it's been legislated but with any legislation, it can be changed. It's not as if by 2035 fossil fuels will be gone. Nor that by 2035, the planet is going to be the next Venus. Those arguing against the 2035 mandate haven't pulled this all together into one succinct thing which is we do have the power to make the change. Just vote the people out of office. 2024 is coming up soon. If change doesn't happen with the next election then we have no one else to blame but ourselves.

[KRS_SN]

The factories are churning out 1000s of clones of the same every minute.
Selling them at a cut price is an attempt to keep selling them as if sales fall share prices fall and if production needs to slow down there are greater losses as maintaining these factories at full steam and cutting price per unit is the less painful option.
All good unless you own a tesla and your current cars resale plummeted or if you are looking to buy a tesla as more cuts will come so wait.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

The factories are churning out 1000s of clones of the same every minute.
Selling them at a cut price is an attempt to keep selling them as if sales fall share prices fall and if production needs to slow down there are greater losses as maintaining these factories at full steam and cutting price per unit is the less painful option.
All good unless you own a tesla and your current cars resale plummeted or if you are looking to buy a tesla as more cuts will come so wait.

I think all car manufacturers will be slashing prices as the economy tanks. Tesla just lead the way. Resale value of everyone’s cars, especially coming out of Covid is going to be devastating because most people paid over retail for their vehicles for a couple of years. I’ve watched a couple of “lets hate on car dealership” videos talking about this. It seems people that don’t understand how the free market works blame car dealerships for prices during Covid. But that’s another thread somewhere else. Either way in my opinion that’s the only reason why Elon cut prices. Sales are declining everywhere. I think anyone in the middle class or lower middle class needing a car soon should wait. I think they will be finding some pretty sweet deals in the not too distant future including Tesla cars.

[zx10guy]

The reckoning is coming also due to people losing their jobs or costs from inflation. I still maintain most of the cars purchased these past couple of years are from people that didn't need them but just wanted something flashy and new. People flush with extra cash from all the stimulus money that had more dollars than sense. With inflation making daily living with paying for basic needs being more expensive, something is going to have to give. Loan defaults and repos are also putting pressure on used car prices and by default new car prices too. Then we also have people starting to lose their jobs.

My mom actually needed a car during this insane car market as her previous car's engine took a major dump. Fortunately, I was able to get her into a car paying just MSRP. I also purchased during this crazy stupid period. I bought a new S1000RR; granted it's a motorcycle. I bought it for $500 under sticker. I had a line I wouldn't cross. I wasn't going to pay over sticker.

As far as resale goes, that's a non consideration for both my mom and myself. We typically hold on to our vehicles till the wheels fall off. The only car I actually traded in was way back in '93/94. Since then, my other cars were done in when one had a head gasket failure that wasn't worth the expense to do the repairs so it got junked and the other was taken out by a deer so insurance totaled the car and took possession of it. One car I sold to one of the car buying services and was the only car I've purchased used.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I think all car manufacturers will be slashing prices as the economy tanks. Tesla just lead the way. Resale value of everyone’s cars, especially coming out of Covid is going to be devastating because most people paid over retail for their vehicles for a couple of years. I’ve watched a couple of “lets hate on car dealership” videos talking about this. It seems people that don’t understand how the free market works blame car dealerships for prices during Covid. But that’s another thread somewhere else. Either way in my opinion that’s the only reason why Elon cut prices. Sales are declining everywhere. I think anyone in the middle class or lower middle class needing a car soon should wait. I think they will be finding some pretty sweet deals in the not too distant future including Tesla cars.

You are right..
Another factor is....
1.less ice is being sold/produced over past few years (especially post covid) as therewas demand for evs..
2.more customers are looking for used ice than used ev.(autotrader data) ...
there are 1000's upon 1000's of lease end teslas hitting the used market.
All cars will take a beating given the recession but evs are on a different trajectory of depreciation.
But a good quality ice is still holding value better purely because there is less of it around to buy.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

You are right..
Another factor is....
1.less ice is being sold/produced over past few years (especially post covid) as therewas demand for evs..
2.more customers are looking for used ice than used ev.(autotrader data) ...
there are 1000's upon 1000's of lease end teslas hitting the used market.
All cars will take a beating given the recession but evs are on a different trajectory of depreciation.
But a good quality ice is still holding value better purely because there is less of it around to buy.

EVs to me are similar to computers/consumer electronics. Future software updates might be an issue but the elephant in the room is power. Since there is no standardization of batteries or charging, you're at the mercy of what these manufacturers will do with their next iteration and how long they'll support what you have now. With ICE, gas is gas. It's pretty much been this way since its invention. The storage medium which is the fuel tank typically doesn't expire and lasts the life of the car. But with EVs you have both combined into one part. We've already seen some EVs lose the ability to get new battery packs from the manufacturer which currently is the only source to get new battery packs.

Also if some new charging method comes out that shortens the time to recharge a battery pack, the demand for previous gen cars will drop due to this. This is assuming any future charging upgrade will be backwards compatible with previous EVs. Which goes back to how ICE has been so successful. Gas is gas. Any new and future ICE vehicles will run on current gas formulations.

[M5Rick]

Must bring on second thoughts of that shiny EV dropping like a stone in value as soon as you buy it like no other ICE car

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Must bring on second thoughts of that shiny EV dropping like a stone in value as soon as you buy it like no other ICE car

Most (not all) people who buy them aren't car guys..many(like my pal)bought them as electricity is cheap I'll run them for near free while sucker ice guys pay at the pump. And my Tesla is (sorry.. was) the slowest depreciating vehicle.

But when you factor in the extra depreciation and insurance costs etc for mass market ev when the lease end comes the cost per mile of your ev may be equal to this if not more

[KRS_SN]

M5Rick
Regarding synthetic fuels
Surely track cars and performance cars and such who need light weight and performance around corners need this than battery packs.
The cynic in me thinks carbon accounting will make it look green as it will be classed as from waste etc.
I haven't looked into it but taking out what's needed from the earth using infrastructure and processes and technologies that are already there for track use etc come the time seems to be the green sustainable thing but don't tell anybody :-)

[BGM-M3COMP]

Synthetic fuel is best served for motor sports.

They’re not going to make a mass transition into synthetic for the general public. Get your home chargers ready