[lemetier]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Regarding the liability, your understanding is correct. They explicitly state that no liability coverage is included.

http://locktonmotorsports.com/product/hpde-insurance

Hence the Event Organizer Policies. Jurisdictional Limitations obviously apply, but for most, the policy needs to be with the host and participants covered as additionals insured.

With HPDE Insurance, the basic coverage is only for damage to your car. Coverage for other property damage, bodily injury, and other potential fees (medical response, safety marshals, recovery service from incident location to paddock) typically is by request.

[RickFLM4]

Based on the links posted, Lockton does not provide insurance that participants can buy to address the concerns detailed in this thread, at least as far as I can tell. Participants are not using their own cars and are not the event organizers.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

You're making the same exact argument, but fortunately without the eye rolling and condescension The problem is the you can't argue whether someone else should take on a risk. That's their prerogative. You can say, "I think the risk is minimal." OK, but that's a judgement call. The fact remains that the waiver is required, and the terms are onerous.

It can definitely be said that BMW has no track record of going after participants for mishaps. But this cannot be said:

"BMW would never go after a participant over an honest accident."

Only BMW can assert that.

This is the fundamental problem. No matter how much track record we have, BMW still requires that you sign a document that:

A) Puts all liability on you as a participant.

B) Causes you to assert that you have insurance coverage that you do not (in most cases).

Regardless of track record, that is the circumstance that you enter when you sign the agreement. Some people are OK with that, but others are not. No one should be talked down to for expressing that they're not comfortable with the risk.

People are really making this a bigger issue than what it is. It just takes some thought and not the knee-jerk reaction of "OMG..we have no insurance from BMW".

I get it though, some states are more litigious than others and that dictates how people view things.

[zx10guy]

What I don't understand and no one has commented on this is why BMW hasn't followed the model of the track school I go to which has BMW sponsorship and affiliation. BMW can provide wording to protect itself and set a cap on what a participant can be responsible for under non gross negligence situations. BMW can keep up the tradition of not enforcing any monetary collection of damages from participants and participants can have the peace of mind that their out of pocket damages cannot exceed x amount.

[Outlaw 06]

The bottom line up front is that motorsport is an inherently dangerous activity that is not for the risk averse.

Ernest Hemingway famously stated: “There are only three sports; bullfighting, motor racing and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” In other words, Hemingway’s definition of a “sport” is an activity where participants choose to routinely risk their lives.

Of course, there are different levels of risk associated with each feeder level of motorsport. The lowest risk motorsport activity is probably indoor carting, followed by autocross and controlled driving schools like BMW’s M School, Porsche’s Sport Driving School and various other high performance driving schools (which are all MUCH less dangerous than any form of “motor racing”). Controlled driving schools such as the few I mentioned above represent a very low level of motorsport risk in my opinion.

The paradox is that as drivers become more talented, they must assume more risk as they climb each step up the motorsport ladder.

Drivers must also recognize the level of risk they're willing to assume (concerning their finances, life, limb, etc.) and then go for it, or not...

[RickFLM4]

The most interesting part of this thread is seeing how many people completely misunderstand the very simple points originally raised by the letter in Roundel and subsequent posts.

Unless someone can provide the name of an insurance company that will sell property / liability insurance to participants in an event like this (where the participant is not using his / her own car) there's probably not much point in continuing the circular discussion.

[RLI-Drew]

Lots of good information here about what track day insurance does and doesn't cover.
Physical damage to your owned or leased car? yes
Liability or medical? no

If you do track your own car, may I suggest you check out RLItrackday.com
We have better rates than may other providers currently offer. We also have some supplemental coverages included if you have a covered loss, like
๐ Towing and Storage $1,000
๐ Rental Car Reimbursement up to $500
๐ Pollutant Cleanup and Removal (think spilled fluids) $10,000

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

The most interesting part of this thread is seeing how many people completely misunderstand the very simple points originally raised by the letter in Roundel and subsequent posts.

That's because the original point raised by the letter stated in Roundel is stupid.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by The HACK

That's because the original point raised by the letter stated in Roundel is stupid.

.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

The most interesting part of this thread is seeing how many people completely misunderstand the very simple points originally raised by the letter in Roundel and subsequent posts.

Unless someone can provide the name of an insurance company that will sell property / liability insurance to participants in an event like this (where the participant is not using his / her own car) there's probably not much point in continuing the circular discussion.

There won't be any insurer who would allow such a policy in their right mind. The most at risk party from a financial point needs to be the policy holder. Lower financial risk parties will be additional insured.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by miamiten

There won't be any insurer who would allow such a policy in their right mind. The most at risk party from a financial point needs to be the policy holder. Lower financial risk parties will be additional insured.

Right, so there is no way for a participant to comply with the terms of the waiver as pointed out in the letter to Roundel in post 1. You either sign it and not worry about it or don't sign it and don't go.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Right, so there is no way for a participant to comply with the terms of the waiver as pointed out in the letter to Roundel in post 1. You either sign it and not worry about it or don't sign it and don't go.

It's remarkable how everyone completely looks past this and shrugs their shoulders. I mean, I get it that BMW doesn't have a history of pursuing this, but putting agreements in front of people and asking them to sign them when you know that they aren't compliant is such bullshit.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

It's remarkable how everyone completely looks past this and shrugs their shoulders. I mean, I get it that BMW doesn't have a history of pursuing this, but putting agreements in front of people and asking them to sign them when you know that they aren't compliant is such bullshit.

Agreed. At least the letter to Roundel, your view and the views of some others in this thread validated the way I interpreted the waiver when I got it (at least in my view). I think this thread also demonstrated there are more than enough that look past it (or don't even read it) and just sign it, so there isn't much incentive for BMW to change it. I skipped BMW school and was disappointed, but I got over it and life goes on.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

It's remarkable how everyone completely looks past this and shrugs their shoulders. I mean, I get it that BMW doesn't have a history of pursuing this, but putting agreements in front of people and asking them to sign them when you know that they aren't compliant is such bullshit.

No. What is remarkable is a bunch of people who will never take BMW's M Performance schools b*tching and moaning about a waiver they have to sign and raising a stink about it, when they have zero clue and will NEVER attend the school anyway.

This is unrelated to a BMW event. I went to a Nissan launch party for one of their vehicles. I signed a similar waiver up front. I drove one of their SUVs on an off-road course and due to my inexperience with off-road driving, I broke not one, but TWO anti-roll bars. The language in the waiver is the same. They specify that YOU as the participant CAN be held responsible for damages.

Guess what? I paid exactly ZERO dollars for about $800 worth of damage in parts and maybe another $500 in labor.

ZERO.

Wanna know what happened after I broke that first anti-roll bar? They brought out another identical SUV for me to drive and I promptly broke the anti-roll bar on that SUV too, but at a different spot. That's when they kindly asked me to step out and try the SUV on the road course rather than the off-road course. At no point did they insinuate that I would have to pay out of pocket for any of the damages I caused on their vehicle, despite the waiver I signed up front explicitly stating that I CAN be held responsible.

You want to know what the repercussions was for the amount of damages I caused?

I never received another email from Nissan's promotional department about participating in their launch events. The few times after when I registered and signed up for other Nissan events I was very kindly declined and turned away.

That is what usually happens if and when sh*t hits the fan. Unless it's something really egregious and catastrophic, say, you act like a complete douche at one of the events held off site from Spartanburg, NC, say, at a historical venue like, oh, Laguna Seca and you went out on the first exercise and promptly Mustang Leaving Car Show'ed the car into a wall doing tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage. Even then, they'll probably just ask you to leave the premises or make you pay for the damage to the facilities, not ask you to pay for the car you crashed.

But they still put that thought in your head, that if you break it, you potentially have to pay it, because they don't want you to think it's free reign to act like you're driving a Porsche GT and go crash at every opportunity you get. Thus the waiver and the seed is planted in your head that you MAY be held liable. In all reality, you're not, not for honest mistakes or accidents. It's their little filter to weed out the ones that probably shouldn't be attending their M school anyway, because they're coming in EXPECTING to crash.

Frankly, if you go to one of these events like the M School afraid that you'd do hundreds or thousands of dollars of damages to their car, and that you'd be liable for it, then you're better off staying home anyway. So for you guys to sit here and continue this STUPID argument is asinine. None of you "omg BMW is going to make me pay WHEN I crash" should take the M School. Those that want, need, or choose to do so isn't going to let a little waiver stop them.

So quit your b*tching pansies.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by The HACK

No. What is remarkable is a bunch of people who will never take BMW's M Performance schools b*tching and moaning about a waiver they have to sign and raising a stink about it, when they have zero clue and will NEVER attend the school anyway.

This is unrelated to a BMW event. I went to a Nissan launch party for one of their vehicles. I signed a similar waiver up front. I drove one of their SUVs on an off-road course and due to my inexperience with off-road driving, I broke not one, but TWO anti-roll bars. The language in the waiver is the same. They specify that YOU as the participant CAN be held responsible for damages.

Guess what? I paid exactly ZERO dollars for about $800 worth of damage in parts and maybe another $500 in labor.

ZERO.

Wanna know what happened after I broke that first anti-roll bar? They brought out another identical SUV for me to drive and I promptly broke the anti-roll bar on that SUV too, but at a different spot. That's when they kindly asked me to step out and try the SUV on the road course rather than the off-road course. At no point did they insinuate that I would have to pay out of pocket for any of the damages I caused on their vehicle, despite the waiver I signed up front explicitly stating that I CAN be held responsible.

You want to know what the repercussions was for the amount of damages I caused?

I never received another email from Nissan's promotional department about participating in their launch events. The few times after when I registered and signed up for other Nissan events I was very kindly declined and turned away.

That is what usually happens if and when sh*t hits the fan. Unless it's something really egregious and catastrophic, say, you act like a complete douche at one of the events held off site from Spartanburg, NC, say, at a historical venue like, oh, Laguna Seca and you went out on the first exercise and promptly Mustang Leaving Car Show'ed the car into a wall doing tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage. Even then, they'll probably just ask you to leave the premises or make you pay for the damage to the facilities, not ask you to pay for the car you crashed.

But they still put that thought in your head, that if you break it, you potentially have to pay it, because they don't want you to think it's free reign to act like you're driving a Porsche GT and go crash at every opportunity you get. Thus the waiver and the seed is planted in your head that you MAY be held liable. In all reality, you're not, not for honest mistakes or accidents. It's their little filter to weed out the ones that probably shouldn't be attending their M school anyway, because they're coming in EXPECTING to crash.

Frankly, if you go to one of these events like the M School afraid that you'd do hundreds or thousands of dollars of damages to their car, and that you'd be liable for it, then you're better off staying home anyway. So for you guys to sit here and continue this STUPID argument is asinine. None of you "omg BMW is going to make me pay WHEN I crash" should take the M School. Those that want, need, or choose to do so isn't going to let a little waiver stop them.

So quit your b*tching pansies.

You appear to lack the mental capacity required to understand the fundamental issue raised, but thanks for the almost interesting story of how you damaged a Nissan. I don't have any interest in trying to explain it to you or going another round of pointless debate. Hopefully you limit acting like an arrogant douche bag to your internet posts, although somehow I highly doubt it.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

You appear to lack the mental capacity required to understand the fundamental issue raised, but thanks for the almost interesting story of how you damaged a Nissan. I don't have any interest in trying to explain it to you or going another round of pointless debate. Hopefully you limit acting like an arrogant douche bag to your internet posts, although somehow I highly doubt it.

LOL.

Get b*tchy when you actually are interested in attending one of these BMW M Schools for REAL. Otherwise you have ZERO say in this, because that waiver will never apply to you in the first place.

Seriously. THIS STUFF WILL NEVER APPLY TO YOU. So why get all huffy like you're the authority in this? Because you are not.

I don't need mental capacity to understand that YOU are like the typical internet poster that needs to exert your so called expertise and authority on stuff that you're in absolutely no authority speaking about.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by The HACK

LOL.

Get b*tchy when you actually are interested in attending one of these BMW M Schools for REAL. Otherwise you have ZERO say in this, because that waiver will never apply to you in the first place.

Seriously. THIS STUFF WILL NEVER APPLY TO YOU. So why get all huffy like you're the authority in this? Because you are not.

I don't need mental capacity to understand that YOU are like the typical internet poster that needs to exert your so called expertise and authority on stuff that you're in absolutely no authority speaking about.

Alanis might not understand irony, but this guy sure does.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

I signed up and paid for 1-Day M school last summer and then got the waiver in advance of the event, which I read.

Just out of curiosity, did this school have any 3rd party connection (hosts, organizers, sponsor) or was it strictly a direct BMW Driving School?

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by miamiten

Just out of curiosity, did this school have any 3rd party connection (hosts, organizers, sponsor) or was it strictly a direct BMW Driving School?

It was direct BMW One Day M School. No third party sponsors or organizers. I used my BMWCCA discount but it was not a BMWCCA event. Here is the confirmation, which also provides the link to the waiver I posted earlier:

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

The most interesting part of this thread is seeing how many people completely misunderstand the very simple points originally raised by the letter in Roundel and subsequent posts.

Unless someone can provide the name of an insurance company that will sell property / liability insurance to participants in an event like this (where the participant is not using his / her own car) there's probably not much point in continuing the circular discussion.

I know this might seem overly coincidental, but we just started our annual business insurance policy review on 6/15. I was on a call with our broker, and I took some time to inquire about this with a guy who I trust.

With the disclaimer that he had zero experience with "track day" insurance, he suggested that I consider an umbrella, and was kind of surprised that I hadn't already looked in to one in a general sense. He said that anyone who owns a home, or who has accumulated a decent net worth should consider one. He also mentioned that depending on who the policy is written with, it may even cover property damage.

I looked in to a bit, and it looks like GEICO's umbrella policy would be a good starting point:

https://www.geico.com/information/ab...ance/umbrella/

Property Damage Liability – covers the cost of damage or loss to another person's tangible property. Examples include the cost associated with:

• Damage to vehicles and other property as a result of an auto accident where you are at fault

You would, of course, need to make sure that the policy doesn't exclude track days, and that it doesn't follow-form of any existing auto insurance policy.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by marcva

I remember O'Fest in 2000 when they ran a really fun AutoX on the performance center track. A driver rolled their 318ti to end the event early. Driver was fine, but even a "safe" facility is dangerous.

Marc

I was there and saw that. BMW came out and rolled the car into the body shop and put paper over the windows. We all assumed that BMW fixed it gratis...though I never heard what happened.

From my understanding that accident was the result of the ti design. The load unload going through the slalom loaded up the springs and flipped the car.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

That's a great idea. Never joined CCA since the "local" chapter is a solid 3 hr drive away, but if they do driving events that's a great option to make it more affordable.

The CCA events are great and I don't wish to take away from there benefits but the weekend cost are not your only costs.

- accommodations
- track insurance - optional
- track pads/rotors - optional but recommended
- brake flush - required
- tech inspection - required
- wear and tear to tires, brakes, rotors, sock tower mounts, trailing arm bushings, thrust arm bushings, etc. - expected

If you can maintain your own brakes those costs are parts vs. parts and labor.

EOD Driver's school is way more expensive than the fee.