[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Septro

Well it is comical that all of a sudden since we found out with the new tool that even while stock, knock events happen - it so conveniently obfuscates what Shiv was deriding the JB3 to be inferior to the PROcede in that it 'rode' the knock sensor whereas his tune did not since it 'obviously' controlled timing. Now it seems it's all cool for school how, potentially, how the DME continously attempts to ride the knock sensor as it adapts to conditions (notice the word potentially, more test data is needed).

So the argument that CPS Offsets work (at least to the extent SHiv was marketing) is still to be had and some of you who are PROcede partisans aren't as aggressive with Shiv to hold him to the same standard as everyone was so happily holding the JB3 too.

But I have a feeling why that is - you all have too much financially and emotionally invested in your tune to really do that. As for me, I can give two shits who wins the timing debate - I actually respect and like the Vishnu product itself, it is the vendor's interaction that turns me off to it. But screw it, it's only my $695 he ain't getting so it's probably no sweat off the Vishnu balls in the larger scheme of things, but I'm comfortable in wagering I'm not the only one with that disposition.

It was never about the timing control for me because neither the JB3 nor Procede exhibited outward knocking symptoms that I could discern.

Given that I suspected the DME listened for knock proactively and adjusted timing accordingly, timing control was a moot point for the most part.

It is apparent that neither piggyback can fundamentally control timing other than to influence it to some degree within defined thresholds already in existence within the DME.

No....for me it was the symptoms that I COULD discern.

Boost oscillation, excessive throttle plate intervention, overboost limps and codes, non-linear power delivery etc.

These were very real symptoms that were a part of my JB3 experience from V1.1 up to and including 1.3 beta 7C and 7F.

The Procede exhibits some of these characteristics as well, but to a much smaller extent and the power delivery is very smooth and linear. Which leads me to conclude that there is better torque management going on.

It's documented in numerous threads both on E90 and N54tech.

What can I say?

I am eagerly awaiting JB3 beta 8A to further see how these two tunes compare and I suspect that performance wise, they will begin to approach each other more and more.

If you find it necessary to discredit my experience and minimize it then I understand.

If Mike or Shiv need to do damage control to invalidate or excuse my experience, then I understand.

But my experience is what I trust over anyone's opinion or any tuner marketing.
So in that sense, I will let the product speak for itself.

If the majority are not interested in the sharing of my experience, then I too can simply keep things to myself.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by per

I don´t know what that expression means, please explain.
Just curius how my country did get involved in this thread

I second that. Although Sweden has a policy of neutrality, Switzerland is the country most renowned for not taking sides.

[runningman]

Originally Posted by Scalbert

Don't drag me into this pissing match unless you want to get into the specifics of what the intention was; which you should mention if you understand.

Originally Posted by getInline

Sigh, one test by one guy does not a conclusion make.....I give up. I think the only solution is to withhold all information untill the conclusions are stronger.

Originally Posted by Ilma

I cry foul

It's funny how you are all missed the point of the quote. It isn't about you, what your data shows, or whether V3 or JB3 is better. Although if you want my opinion both are inherently flawed and proven not to properly control timing.

It is about Shiv playing stupid. I suggested rather than trolling he spend more time helping his customers who are reporting knock events and improving his product. He replied the only customer who experienced knock was running an improper grade of fuel. I saw another post where someone was talking about the very well documented V2 boost control issues and he replied a few posts later "what boost control issues?". The guy has a history of questionable behavior which has stripped away his credibility to many.

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by runningman

It's funny how you are all missed the point of the quote. It isn't about you, what your data shows, or whether V3 or JB3 is better. Although if you want my opinion both are inherently flawed and proven not to properly control timing.

It is about Shiv playing stupid. I suggested rather than trolling he spend more time helping his customers who are reporting knock events and improving his product. He replied the only customer who experienced knock was running an improper grade of fuel. I saw another post where someone was talking about the very well documented V2 boost control issues and he replied a few posts later "what boost control issues?". The guy has a history of questionable behavior which has stripped away his credibility to many.

In all fairness, if you quote me out of context, then you deserve to be corrected.

I don't think I missed your point at all.

You don't want Shiv derailing JB3 threads to promote himself and you don't think highly of his unprofessional behaviour and comments and you feel that he lacks credibility based on the history of his product exhibiting boost spikes.

[nlakind]

wow, i missed a lot in the last couple days, sorry for not responding at all, i had to go out of town & didn't bring my computer, i just got back this morning..just spent 30 minutes reading everything i missed...

i would like to defend myself, i DID pay full price for my 1st JB. since then, i have been discounted on each update in exchange for writing a review.

i know i'm not extremely technical when it comes to my reviews, i don't have a data logging system, etc. nor do i know all the ins & outs of what each tune does, whether it be procede or JB..but my reviews & most of the reviews i enjoy reading are reviews that come from the heart, reviews that make sense to me & i understand! i'm assuming there is probably a small amount of ppl on this forum who know wtf you guys are arguing about when you get into the technical bashing of each tune. & i don't care if anybody agrees with this comment but at the end of the day, it's how i feel when i drive my car. & i'm VERY happy with JB & i love driving my car everyday, that is what's important to me. that's what my reviews are based on!

[Septro]

Originally Posted by nlakind

wow, i missed a lot in the last couple days, sorry for not responding at all, i had to go out of town & didn't bring my computer, i just got back this morning..just spent 30 minutes reading everything i missed...

i would like to defend myself, i DID pay full price for my 1st JB. since then, i have been discounted on each update in exchange for writing a review.

i know i'm not extremely technical when it comes to my reviews, i don't have a data logging system, etc. nor do i know all the ins & outs of what each tune does, whether it be procede or JB..but my reviews & most of the reviews i enjoy reading are reviews that come from the heart, reviews that make sense to me & i understand! i'm assuming there is probably a small amount of ppl on this forum who know wtf you guys are arguing about when you get into the technical bashing of each tune. & i don't care if anybody agrees with this comment but at the end of the day, it's how i feel when i drive my car. & i'm VERY happy with JB & i love driving my car everyday, that is what's important to me. that's what my reviews are based on!

Cool for posting back - but I wouldn't sweat it. Both vendors have discounted their products for a quid pro quo on a positive review. One even has it as part of his competitive upgrade program written on the website. You should've disclosed it, but you review was fine in my book.

[vase330]

What? WTF? I was not even aware of that. I reviewed all these tunes and no one gave me a penny. To be fair I didn't ask either, and my review was based on testing I did for my own tune selection. I think those who get something for their reviews should say so, so we all know which reviews are bogus. I didn't trust any of the fan-boi type reviews anyway, so I wanted to test everything myself and make my pick.

[2point3]

Originally Posted by lawdude

I would like to see it end but I'm afraid that would be expecting too much.

Bingo.

[nlakind]

Originally Posted by vase330

What? WTF? I was not even aware of that. I reviewed all these tunes and no one gave me a penny. To be fair I didn't ask either, and my review was based on testing I did for my own tune selection. I think those who get something for their reviews should say so, so we all know which reviews are bogus. I didn't trust any of the fan-boi type reviews anyway, so I wanted to test everything myself and make my pick.

I wasn't "given a penny"..i got a discount twice for the 1.22 update & this latest update after i payed 100% full price for my 1st JB2 & JB3..not to mention, my discount was made up for in gas driving to terry's house, i live nowhere near him & i go to him to make sure it's installed properly since i don't know anybody near me that installs them..

& my testing is also based on MY car & MY tune selection.

Originally Posted by vase330

I think those who get something for their reviews should say so

i can answer that pretty simply, i get a great tune which is why i wrote the review, for you to say it's bogus because i received a discount is absurd. my feelings about the procede have always been public knowledge, i think it's a great tune, i enjoy driving it, it puts out impressive numbers & shiv does know his shit..but again, the price points are still too far apart between the 2 tunes & too similar in performance to spend the extra money on the procede.

[midlife]

Originally Posted by nlakind

I wasn't "given a penny"..i got a discount twice for the 1.22 update & this latest update after i payed 100% full price for my 1st JB2 & JB3..not to mention, my discount was made up for in gas driving to terry's house, i live nowhere near him & i go to him to make sure it's installed properly since i don't know anybody near me that installs them..

& my testing is also based on MY car & MY tune selection.



i can answer that pretty simply, i get a great tune which is why i wrote the review, for you to say it's bogus because i received a discount is absurd. my feelings about the procede have always been public knowledge, i think it's a great tune, i enjoy driving it, it puts out impressive numbers & shiv does know his shit..but again, the price points are still too far apart between the 2 tunes & too similar in performance to spend the extra money on the procede.

discount on the 1.22 update ???
the updates are usually $20, so i don not know how much a discount is worth LOL.
.... in fact the 1.3 and subsequent upgrades will be free in the near future if you have a chip burner !!
... and when we can download new maps directly into our JB3, they should be even less than the $20 for the previous 1.2 update..
knowing terry they will probably be free.

btw, shivs antics are not new...
like many people already said - although he is quite a capable tuner - due to his behavior alone, he has to lose alot of business every year.

[Blue Bruno]

Hey, all you guys who post reviews of the tunes and data from your testing. Don't worry about the sniping. Keep posting. There's lots of us who eagerly read what you write, and aren't really influenced by the bickering. Amused, yes. Influenced, no.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

5 Pages of bickering and bologna...

Give me the new update, please and thanks.