[footie]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

That test where the S4 wins is a joke.

The BMW was tested in xi form, where it does not have the upgraded M-Sport suspension but the standard raised xi suspension (softer than even the standard 335i suspension). Also the 335xi is slower than the 335i on a track. Would they have chosen the 335i M-Sport manual (or DCT but stupidly this is not available on the sedan), the results would be different (I think they chose the automatic gearbox, which is stupid to compare with Audi DSG). Also, if they chose a 335i M-Sport with BMW Performance Power Kit (which is an OEM part and brings the power on par with the Audi) the BMW would win hands down.

A proper comparison would be Audi S4 vs. BMW 335i M-Sport manual transmission with BMW Performance Power Kit (whose price would not be higher than the price of the BMW tested, because the xi suspension and the automatic gearbox would replace the cost of the M-Sport and the Power Kit).

Also, the Audi had an LSD whereas BMW had the open diff. If BMW would also offer a LSD as a BMW Performance option, the S4 would be destroyed. But this does not count, since BMW is not offering the damn diff (are you f*cking listening, BMW ?).

But the review was probably mean from the beginning to have the Audi as winner. You can't compare an Audi S with a standard BMW except when you want Audi to win.

So I have no doubts whatsoever that the 335i chassis is way better than the Audi chassis. With the addition of the BMW Performance Power Kit, the engine power difference is also eliminated.

Even when the 335i is equipped with the full M/Sport equipment the S4 still wins. It wins in acceleration (destroys would be nearer the truth), it wins on the track (over 1s around Hockenheim is considerable) and it wins on interior design and build quality. Hack even when they are equally specced the small difference in price is easily justified in favour of the Audi.

Look at all the plus points.

DSG vs an automatic
Sportsdiff (LSD) vs open diff
Gorgeous 19" alloys vs ugly 18" alloys

Need I go on.

BMW need to pull their socks up or they will lose their title of the Ultimate Driving Machine because at present with only the M3 holding that crown in a full range of cars it may soon be gone.

[NewSong]

As you guys know, I rarely agree with footie, but I do in this instance. The S4 is clearly the better performer and offers slightly more at the price point than the 335i.

[JustinB615]

Nice car!

[EmPower]

Audi seems to be moving away from the 'specialized' automaker mantra by pricing this oh so covetted automobile just right. I remember last year, when I went to drive the S5, all they told me is that they are going to be produced in small numbers, unlike the more plebian 335s. But this is something else. Audi should be able to move a lot of units (assuming they dont want ot maintain the exclusiveity).

[OC Guy]

I'll have to test drive one. Good thread.

[ragingclue]

Wow a thread that finally brought NewSong and footie together. The new S4 must be Jesus.

[Hawkeye]

Originally Posted by footie

BMW need to pull their socks up or they will lose their title of the Ultimate Driving Machine because at present with only the M3 holding that crown in a full range of cars it may soon be gone.

What beats the Z4MC or the M5?

I hope you don't think the Jag XKR beats the M5 as it performs not as well per Top Gear and base price costs 10K more per the websites of jaguar and BMW.

I don't believe a P car beats the MC either cause they are different cars, even on Top Gear they couldn't agree and different people liked different cars better.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

What beats the Z4MC or the M5?

I hope you don't think the Jag XKR beats the M5 as it performs not as well per Top Gear and base price costs 10K more per the websites of jaguar and BMW.

I don't believe a P car beats the MC either cause they are different cars, even on Top Gear they couldn't agree and different people liked different cars better.

Yeah but isn't the Z4MC dead?

[Hawkeye]

I suppose, there is no 2010, but there is still no car that beats the E86 from what I have read.

I keep forgetting that it is no longer in production... sad.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

I keep forgetting that it is no longer in production... sad.

Agreed.

[NewSong]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Wow a thread that finally brought NewSong and footie together. The new S4 must be Jesus.

footie and I have sorted out our problems in private. Jesus was certainly involved.

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by footie

Even when the 335i is equipped with the full M/Sport equipment the S4 still wins. It wins in acceleration (destroys would be nearer the truth), it wins on the track (over 1s around Hockenheim is considerable) and it wins on interior design and build quality. Hack even when they are equally specced the small difference in price is easily justified in favour of the Audi.

Look at all the plus points.

DSG vs an automatic
Sportsdiff (LSD) vs open diff
Gorgeous 19" alloys vs ugly 18" alloys

Need I go on.

BMW need to pull their socks up or they will lose their title of the Ultimate Driving Machine because at present with only the M3 holding that crown in a full range of cars it may soon be gone.

I completely disagree with you Footie (on this one rare occaision )... The B6/B7 A4 were up against the E46 M3. Then came the RS4, which was the mac daddy of the pack. Remember that the S4, AMG C Class and the M3 were the halo C-segment luxury cars. The RS4 crashed the party and was tossed by the proverbial supermodel. For this reason, AMG, F('If you cant beat em join em' Lexus) and M went for more power and V8s to try to trounce the RS4.

Audi now has two Halo cars, the S4 and the RS4 in the C segment. They decided to leave the S4 the way it is, but in the mean time its BMW that stole the S4's thunder. With the introduction of the 335, it proved to be a worthy competitor to the B7 S4 but offering more low end torque, lighter wieght, much better weight distribution and a lower base price. This is when the autocrats of Ingolstadt got together in a glass boardroom in their pressed haute couture business suits, and scurried to make the next gen S4 seem a better value for money than the 335.

To counter your second point, what you seem to forget though is that the 335 has been around for 3 years, and it is just now that audi is introducing a car worthy of competing one on one with the magnanimous 3. So in conclusion, it does not surprise me that the S4 is a slightly better car, but what astonishes me is that Audi took so long to realise that they have the capability and brand equity to challenge Stuttgart and Munich to a one on one numbers game

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by EmPower

I completely disagree with you Footie (on this one rare occaision )... The B6/B7 A4 were up against the E46 M3. Then came the RS4, which was the mac daddy of the pack. Remember that the S4, AMG C Class and the M3 were the halo C-segment luxury cars. The RS4 crashed the party and was tossed by the proverbial supermodel. For this reason, AMG, F('If you cant beat em join em' Lexus) and M went for more power and V8s to try to trounce the RS4.

Audi now has two Halo cars, the S4 and the RS4 in the C segment. They decided to leave the S4 the way it is, but in the mean time its BMW that stole the S4's thunder. With the introduction of the 335, it proved to be a worthy competitor to the B7 S4 but offering more low end torque, lighter wieght, much better weight distribution and a lower base price. This is when the autocrats of Ingolstadt got together in a glass boardroom in their pressed haute couture business suits, and scurried to make the next gen S4 seem a better value for money than the 335.

To counter your second point, what you seem to forget though is that the 335 has been around for 3 years, and it is just now that audi is introducing a car worthy of competing one on one with the magnanimous 3. So in conclusion, it does not surprise me that the S4 is a slightly better car, but what astonishes me is that Audi took so long to realise that they have the capability and brand equity to challenge Stuttgart and Munich to a one on one numbers game

Glad you brought this up.

The cars are hardly released on an equal basis. It's hard to figure out which cars to compare, maybe I should say which generations. Audi's A4 models have always come out halfway through the 3er's lifecycles, making it easy for one-ups, and vice versa.

[footie]

Guys,

I agree with you both that the 335i is 3 years older in both design and what it was developed to complete with (i.e. B7 S4v8). But the facts are that everyone is developing cars on an on go cycle and you will always have someone playing catch up. At the moment is was Audi with the S4, next it will be BMW with their replacement for the current E9x.

But in the present it's Audi that have the car to beat, not BMW. After driving the S4 I can say without a doubt that it's more than a match for the 335i, in fact it's superior in every way and I would say after owning an M3 for a year that it's much closer to the M3 in ability than it is the 335i

In other words the $4K extra being asked by Audi is well worth it.

[Year's_End]

Exactly, and it'll be like this for a while I'd assume. Next gen F-whatever 3er will probably one-up the B8 A4/S4, and then the B9(?) will follow and outdo that blah blah blah.

One thing I've yet to figure out is where to slot the RS4 into comparison. It's usually priced higher, and it comes out so much later that there's a huge amount of time for it to be engineered to one-up the other high performance competitors.

I feel like the e92 M3 was designed to compare with the B7, so I'm assuming the natural competitor for the upcoming RS4/5 would be the F-whatever M3.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Exactly, and it'll be like this for a while I'd assume. Next gen F-whatever 3er will probably one-up the B8 A4/S4, and then the B9(?) will follow and outdo that blah blah blah.

One thing I've yet to figure out is where to slot the RS4 into comparison. It's usually priced higher, and it comes out so much later that there's a huge amount of time for it to be engineered to one-up the other high performance competitors.

I feel like the e92 M3 was designed to compare with the B7, so I'm assuming the natural competitor for the upcoming RS4/5 would be the F-whatever M3.

The word is that Audi won't be bringing out an RS4 saloon but might release an Avant version. They have confirmed the RS5 coupe and I have heard on the grape vine that there will be an RS5 Sportback which may be the reasoning for no saloon.

I happen to agree that the M3 was designed to complete with the B7 RS4, so the likelihood is the RS5 will be much quicker as it's not developed on an old chassis as the RS4 was (based on B6 from 2003). I would say that BMW as is the rest of us is waiting to see what they are up against with the RS5 and only then can they really know the target they must aim for and beat.

But based on my opinion on the S4 against it's true rival the 335i I think the RS5 will be something special.

[Raikkonen]

I know it's not apples to apples in terms of generations, but having just paid $49K for my M-sport in April, I really wish I would have known this thing could be had for under $50k. I definitely would have waited for the S4. Still love BMW though....I have equal respect for both companies.

[EmPower]

Everything said and done... I Love how the RS5 is turning out, but am totally disappointed by my local Audi dealer. My experience was equivalent to walking into an audemars piguet store wearing a Vacheron Constantin and asking to look at one of their grand complications collection and hearing the banter amongst the salespersons - 'he is wearing a Vacheron' , in the most condescending of tones.....

[BK]

Originally Posted by EmPower

My experience was equivalent to walking into an audemars piguet store wearing a Vacheron Constantin and asking to look at one of their grand complications collection and hearing the banter amongst the salespersons - 'he is wearing a Vacheron' , in the most condescending of tones.....

Wow, I didn't understand any of that, but thanks to Google, I know it is somehow watch-related.

[NewSong]

Originally Posted by EmPower

Everything said and done... I Love how the RS5 is turning out, but am totally disappointed by my local Audi dealer. My experience was equivalent to walking into an audemars piguet store wearing a Vacheron Constantin and asking to look at one of their grand complications collection and hearing the banter amongst the salespersons - 'he is wearing a Vacheron' , in the most condescending of tones.....

Were you wearing shoes and a shirt?

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by NewSong

Were you wearing shoes and a shirt?

Shoes and shirt, but alas no designer suit... apparently in NoVa at least it seems that the more fashionably aesthetic folks drive Audis and crude neanderthal fanboys with a penchant for racing rice rockets between traffic lights like myself drive BMWs.

[NewSong]

Originally Posted by EmPower

Shoes and shirt, but alas no designer suit... apparently in NoVa at least it seems that the more fashionably aesthetic folks drive Audis and crude neanderthal fanboys with a penchant for racing rice rockets between traffic lights like myself drive BMWs.

Sounds about right.