[teknochild]

Originally Posted by Insider

Hi Shiv,

Looking at this article http://www.eurotuner.com:80/featured...mw_335i_coupe/ by BMW engineer Udo Lindner who was responsible for the 335i turbo engine. He says this: "We have two Mitsubishi turbos running at 0.6bar (8.8psi). These can boost to 0.8bar to compensate for altitude using the two electronically-controlled wastegates," Udo explained.

Based on that the car should be able to maintain full boost up to about 7,000ft. Another member on here did a test with the GTech 0-60 at over 5,000' above sea level and got 0-60 at 4.87. So I think the car is maintaining absolute boost pressure at altitude when stock. However, it sounds like the Xede is not. Would you agree?

the xede is putting out more boost and is at its maximum at sea level, so there is no more room to be increased to compensate up at 5k feet

[Insider]

Originally Posted by teknochild

the xede is putting out more boost and is at its maximum at sea level, so there is no more room to be increased to compensate up at 5k feet

Makes sense. However, the Xede is only running 12psi. Shiv mentioned he once accidently had the boost up to 20psi. At 5,000 feet you only need an additional 2.5 psi to make up for the loss of air pressure. So I would think it would be able to compensate.

[OpenFlash]

regarding tuned 335 vs. M5:

We're not going to be out-dragracing M5s just yet. Those cars are just silly. So sill, in fact, that outrunning one may be a tall order regardless of how we tune it. Without replacing turbos, we're going to it a hp bottleneck. We can make peak power earlier and earlier, but the peak number is going to be limited by physical airflow limitations. While low end and midrange torque make for a fantastically quick car on the streets, its top end output and gearing that pays off on the dragstrip.

Re altitude compensation:
I tested them the other day by logging absolute pressure (not boost). From what I saw, it manage to apply some sort of compensation. But it wasn't a full compensation. In otherwords, it only gave back a portion of the absolute manifold pressure that was lost from the low atmos. pressure. This was with stock boost settings and with the higher-than-stock boost settings. After a point, 0-60 times (at any altitude) are pretty useless for quantifying power output. For so many stronger cars, traction, surface quality and gearing play a much bigger role.

cheers,
shiv

[JoeA]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

1) If you want a NA car that makes 400lb feet of torque at the wheels at 3000rpm, get... umm.... i dunno.

...try my Shelby Cobra Shiv!:rocks:

I love my 335i too...completely different animals...but but animals!

Can't wait til I drop an XEDE in

[Walked U]

Originally Posted by JoeA

...try my Shelby Cobra Shiv!:rocks:

I love my 335i too...completely different animals...but but animals!

Can't wait til I drop an XEDE in

Dont even need that. Any ls2 motor has 400 ft lbs. That includes the $29k after taxes gto, that my friend purchased a year back when GM was having that employee sale.

[e36jakeo]

Originally Posted by bmwzimmer

I have no real data... Nobody does. I'm just using my reasoning to guess those numbers..... Here's how I see it and let me know if this makes sense...

Peak torque at 405 sounds great but all the torque is at 2500-4000rpms. This really makes the car feel quick on the road which makes you think it's super fast. When you drag race, your RPMs go up to 7K in first gear and when you shift to 2nd, it starts at something like 5-5.5K rpm. Same with 3rd gear. First gear you'll be struggling with traction so you won't see that much torqe transfered to the ground unless you have some nice slicks on the car.

Take a piece of paper and block off the whole left side of the dyno left of 5.5K rpm. Now the curve you see is what the car will put down on the road in a drag strip (since it shifts at that point). You don't really see much of that left side of the dyno sheet in a drag race. That's why if you look up a dyno sheet for an M5, you will see that after it redlines and shifts from 1st to 2nd at around 6Krpm (I'm guessing here). Now look at the power and tq. it's making to the right of this point. It's making 370-434-425hp and 325-275tq where it bottoms out gradually. The 335 Makes 335-355-275hp but bottoms out early and 350-200tq where it bottoms out at a steep rate as well.
Of course there's tons of other factors (gears/tires/driver skill/conditions) but I just wanted to make the point that you'll never truly see that torque at the strip.

This is a graph of a slightly modified M5 but you get the idea.

http://www.dragtimes.com/2006-BMW-M5...aphs-9623.html

Just to get a bit more precise about the drops in RPM when you shift, with the 335i's gear ratios, when you shift at the 7000 RPM redline in each gear, the drop in RPMs is as follows:

2nd gear: 4200 RPM (42 MPH)
3rd gear: 4600 RPM (71 MPH)
4th gear: 5250 RPM (107 MPH)
5th gear: 5850 RPM (142 MPH)
6th gear: 6150 RPM (169 MPH - theoretical, since limited to 155MPH)

So in the lower gears that extra torque keeps the engine very close to its power peak of 350 WHP at about 6000 RPM. Even at 4200 RPM the car is making almost 300 WHP according to the graph, so that is the LEAST amount of power the car will see in a drag race. Due to the precipitous drop-off in power beyond 6500 RPM it might be just as fast NOT to shift at redline and instead short shift at 6500 (at least in the upper gears) in order to average more power acroos the power band.

The M5's V10 is a high-revving monster that, when shifted at redline (esp. with a 7-speed SMG) will average a lot of HP per gear. Since 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears are not as closely spaced at gears 4-7, there will be more of an RPM drop from 1-2 and 2-3 (to around 5K and then 5.5K) so there is a moment when the 335i will be making a similar 300-350 WHP. But once the M5 climbs above 6K it is lights off for the 335i.

Due to extra weight of the M5 and less torque, I'll bet the XEDE 335i will match its 0-60 time, and be close in the 0-100 (half second off or so), but after that the M5 will walk pretty easily because it will never drop below 380 WHP and will average well over 400 WHP (410-415ish) in gears 4-7 vs. around 335 WHP avg for the 335i. This HP difference is enough to overcome the 12% weight increase over the 335i (4100 lbs vs 3600 lbs).

[wahoo]

Originally Posted by bmwzimmer

I have no real data... Nobody does. I'm just using my reasoning to guess those numbers..... Here's how I see it and let me know if this makes sense...

Peak torque at 405 sounds great but all the torque is at 2500-4000rpms. This really makes the car feel quick on the road which makes you think it's super fast. When you drag race, your RPMs go up to 7K in first gear and when you shift to 2nd, it starts at something like 5-5.5K rpm. Same with 3rd gear. First gear you'll be struggling with traction so you won't see that much torqe transfered to the ground unless you have some nice slicks on the car.

Take a piece of paper and block off the whole left side of the dyno left of 5.5K rpm. Now the curve you see is what the car will put down on the road in a drag strip (since it shifts at that point). You don't really see much of that left side of the dyno sheet in a drag race. That's why if you look up a dyno sheet for an M5, you will see that after it redlines and shifts from 1st to 2nd at around 6Krpm (I'm guessing here). Now look at the power and tq. it's making to the right of this point. It's making 370-434-425hp and 325-275tq where it bottoms out gradually. The 335 Makes 335-355-275hp but bottoms out early and 350-200tq where it bottoms out at a steep rate as well.
Of course there's tons of other factors (gears/tires/driver skill/conditions) but I just wanted to make the point that you'll never truly see that torque at the strip.

This is a graph of a slightly modified M5 but you get the idea.

http://www.dragtimes.com/2006-BMW-M5...aphs-9623.html

and your point would be.....?????

[bmwzimmer]

Originally Posted by wahoo

and your point would be.....?????

??? Some people get it. Too bad you don't...

[edgarj]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

Just to get a bit more precise about the drops in RPM when you shift, with the 335i's gear ratios, when you shift at the 7000 RPM redline in each gear, the drop in RPMs is as follows:

2nd gear: 4200 RPM (42 MPH)
3rd gear: 4600 RPM (71 MPH)
4th gear: 5250 RPM (107 MPH)
5th gear: 5850 RPM (142 MPH)
6th gear: 6150 RPM (169 MPH - theoretical, since limited to 155MPH)

So in the lower gears that extra torque keeps the engine very close to its power peak of 350 WHP at about 6000 RPM. Even at 4200 RPM the car is making almost 300 WHP according to the graph, so that is the LEAST amount of power the car will see in a drag race. Due to the precipitous drop-off in power beyond 6500 RPM it might be just as fast NOT to shift at redline and instead short shift at 6500 (at least in the upper gears) in order to average more power acroos the power band.

The M5's V10 is a high-revving monster that, when shifted at redline (esp. with a 7-speed SMG) will average a lot of HP per gear. Since 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears are not as closely spaced at gears 4-7, there will be more of an RPM drop from 1-2 and 2-3 (to around 5K and then 5.5K) so there is a moment when the 335i will be making a similar 300-350 WHP. But once the M5 climbs above 6K it is lights off for the 335i.

Due to extra weight of the M5 and less torque, I'll bet the XEDE 335i will match its 0-60 time, and be close in the 0-100 (half second off or so), but after that the M5 will walk pretty easily because it will never drop below 380 WHP and will average well over 400 WHP (410-415ish) in gears 4-7 vs. around 335 WHP avg for the 335i. This HP difference is enough to overcome the 12% weight increase over the 335i (4100 lbs vs 3600 lbs).

Considering the latest XEDE curves, would it be an advantage to lower the rear differential ratio if one got an aftermarket LSD?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by gashero

M5 are a heavy beast. Stock for stock the 335i will blow the door of the E39 M5. .

LOL, no

[CASHBY]

ok just to clarify

my good friend has a brand new M5

we raced on the way from his house to work the other day.

1st 2nd and begining parts of 3rd gear my car was in front.....after that he would fly by me like no other.

then we did a 2nd gear roll....this is where the 335 has the potential...i jumped out about 2 cars until middle of 3rd gear when would pull

the car has all top end and low end we will beat it no problem from 1st 2nd and first of 3rd gear after that...we will get walked

with a chip i dont know....i will post results after i get a chip...

the owner of the M5 happens to be my soon to be roomate (we are buying another house together)...we race all the time on the way to work and leaving work.

make no mistake a new m5 DESTROYS our cars! we keep up at low speeds but at high speeds that thing is a freaking monstor.

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by e36jakeo

Due to extra weight of the M5 and less torque, I'll bet the XEDE 335i will match its 0-60 time, and be close in the 0-100 (half second off or so), but after that the M5 will walk pretty easily because it will never drop below 380 WHP and will average well over 400 WHP (410-415ish) in gears 4-7 vs. around 335 WHP avg for the 335i. This HP difference is enough to overcome the 12% weight increase over the 335i (4100 lbs vs 3600 lbs).

Just 1 thing to keep in mind, as speeds increase, drag will become as important/more important than weight.

[Vinobien]

roommate? you guys rent an apt owning a M5 and a 335?

[oc24]

Originally Posted by CEA 3

ok just to clarify

my good friend has a brand new M5

we raced on the way from his house to work the other day.

1st 2nd and begining parts of 3rd gear my car was in front.....after that he would fly by me like no other.

then we did a 2nd gear roll....this is where the 335 has the potential...i jumped out about 2 cars until middle of 3rd gear when would pull

the car has all top end and low end we will beat it no problem from 1st 2nd and first of 3rd gear after that...we will get walked

with a chip i dont know....i will post results after i get a chip...

the owner of the M5 happens to be my roomate...we race all the time on the way to work...

Where in HB are you and invite me to come by and watch these races next time...

[gashero]

Originally Posted by jayjay

LOL, no

Have you driven a e39 M5? I drove my father in law car and that thing is heavy. Believe me, it is a great car and probably will get the 335 by 4th and 5th gear but on the street it will have a hard time keeping up in from a rolls.

[CASHBY]

Originally Posted by Vinobien

roommate? you guys rent an apt owning a M5 and a 335?

hell no... we are not roomates yet actualy, right now we are in the process of buying a new house...

he owns a house in irvine and i have my house in huntington beach currently...

so we are going to buy another house and move into it and he is going to rent his current house out and im getting rid of mine in HB if you would like to buy it 726,000

so yea if you were trying to be an ass, know what your talking about first.

not to be a dick...

[335i=:)]

Sounds like a xede 335i vs e60 m5 are basically the same to 100mph. WHich is what most of us will experience in 99% of our driving, I like the sound of that. So which one would win autocrossing?

The m5 is equipped with better brakes, suspension, etc. but the 335i shaves off 500 lbs. which is around 12% less weight. You don't usually go above 100 or even 80 in autocrossing do you?

[CASHBY]

with a good driver the m5 probably would

more of a drivers race. 1/4 mile is a staright line, autox is skill.

[musc]

I'd think the Xede 335i would need LSD to be better at Auto-x

[CASHBY]

Originally Posted by slubu

Where in HB are you and invite me to come by and watch these races next time...

I live off yorktown and newland. feel free to come by and play some pool or poker when ever.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by gashero

. Believe me, it is a great car and probably will get the 335 by 4th and 5th gear but on the street it will have a hard time keeping up in from a rolls.

Sorry, I dont.

The e39 is capable of trapping at 110mph and will walk the 335 easy.

"Stock for stock the 335i will blow the door of the E39 M5" != true

[ICALL]

Originally Posted by CEA 3

ok just to clarify

my good friend has a brand new M5

we raced on the way from his house to work the other day.

1st 2nd and begining parts of 3rd gear my car was in front.....after that he would fly by me like no other.

then we did a 2nd gear roll....this is where the 335 has the potential...i jumped out about 2 cars until middle of 3rd gear when would pull

the car has all top end and low end we will beat it no problem from 1st 2nd and first of 3rd gear after that...we will get walked

with a chip i dont know....i will post results after i get a chip...

It has to be the driver. According to this article, a stock M5(2006) will do 0-60 in 4.1secs. Best times I've seen for 335i is 4.8 sec. With the XEDE, you're probably right there, but the last line of your post seems to claim you don't have a XEDE. Your friend may have his "power" button switched off. Supposedly this limits the horsepower to 400 bhp. You'd probably take him then. Tell him to flick the switch

E60 M5 (2006-present)

E60 M5The E60 M5 was introduced in 2006. It has a naturally aspirated 5.0 L BMW V10 S85 engine redlining at 8250 RPM and developing a peak output of 507 PS (373 kW, 500 SAE hp) with 383ft-lbs of torque. Other key features include a stiffened aluminum chassis and a 7-speed SMG III manual transmission.

The BMW M5, along with the new M6, were designed to use the new SMG III electrohydraulic manual transmission. Therefore, they will initially only be offered with this new transmission. There was a relative uproar amongst the fans and buyer-base when this was announced—however, BMW announced that 6-speed manual transmission has been available since October 2006 in the North American market based on suggestions from the motoring press.


E60 M5 V-10The M5 features several F1 inspired engine and transmission controls including launch control, dynamic stability control, and the option of changing to either automatic or manual as well as the speed at which shifts are completed (there are 11 shift programs). Manual shifting can be done with either a floor shifter or the steering-column mounted shift paddles (another F1-inspired feature), both of which come in each M5. There is also a "power" button which, when switched off, limits the engine to only 400 bhp, intended for daily use. Switching it on unleashes the full 507 bhp for the Autobahn or track.

Performance
0-60 mph: 4.2 s - Road and Track tested 0-60 in 4.1 seconds (February 2006 issue).
Top speed: 250 km/h (155 mph) (electronic limited), 330 km/h (206 mph) (electronic limited upgradable option), and 334+ km/h (206+ mph) (no electronic limiter)