[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

... And even when public, there is nothing "beta" about them other than thier official name. ..

Then why call them BETA altogether?

[alextremo]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The cause of these engine failures have nothing to do with running too much boost. But rather running too much boost with no timing control, no knock monitoring, no output monitoring and poor boost control. In the case of the Procede, these limitations dont exist. And autotuning limits are typically only raised from the default of 17psi to 20psi once when race fuel is used (with or without meth). As for meth failure, it's just not likely to cause associated engine damage when detected flow is what induces the more aggressive boost/timing mapping. When meth flow stops or is partially compromised, the tune will immediately assume conservative map1 boost/timing values. And since map1 doesn't autotune when in progressive meth mode, there is little risk of a failure from finding yourself in a situation where the tune is too aggressive for your conditions.

These engine failures are just waiting to happen given the lack of understaning ullustrated by those supporting it. The "my tune can support that too and I'm going to prove it" mentality is all well and good when you prove it on your shop car first. Not when your customers are your guinea pigs. It's still surprising to me that anyone would voluntarily install what is essentially a poorly implemented boost controller, increase boost 2-3x, run methanol or nitrous and not expect some sort of immediate failure. Any tuner who supports that usage simply doesnt have much experience/understanding and has too much confidence in the safely measures offered by the factory DME.

touché Thanks for the clarification Shiv.

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

These engine failures are just waiting to happen given the lack of understaning ullustrated by those supporting it. The "my tune can support that too and I'm going to prove it" mentality is all well and good when you prove it on your shop car first. Not when your customers are your guinea pigs. It's still surprising to me that anyone would voluntarily install what is essentially a poorly implemented boost controller, increase boost 2-3x, run methanol or nitrous and not expect some sort of immediate failure.

I know you have to sell your tune which costs 3 times as much as a JB3, but two engine failures at insane boost levels on 91 octane out of thousands of JB3's sold - this is the true reason people "voluntarily" install the JB3...it's damn good for the price I would say !

Disclaimer: I have no tune, and I do not intend to install either JB3 or Procede.

[lyndon_h]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Then why call them BETA altogether?

I usually try to stay out of issues, but you're killing me (and detracting from the discussion). Do you have any knowledge of a software release cycle? I think I can answer that question. The answer is/should be "no".

If you did, it would be really silly to keep on with this argument about the difference between developing a feature and internal testing vs external testing and monitoring (beta) before releasing to the general public.

You've been a pain in the ass this whole thread and have contributed absolutely nothing. Please stop.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by lyndon_h

I usually try to stay out of issues, but you're killing me (and detracting from the discussion). Do you have any knowledge of a software release cycle? I think I can answer that question. The answer is/should be "no".

If you did, it would be really silly to keep on with this argument about the difference between developing a feature and internal testing vs external testing and monitoring (beta) before releasing to the general public.

You've been a pain in the ass this whole thread and have contributed absolutely nothing. Please stop.

u surprised?

[lyndon_h]

Originally Posted by Sniz

u surprised?

Well, kinda. I have an odd expectation for people to go away and hide behind a rock when they say something something completely off base. But not this guy, he just keeps on polluting the thread.
Its like when your traveling in a new city and you start down a road and you get a feeling that you took a wrong turn. You usually look at your map and figure it out pretty quickly. Not Vasillalov. He keeps at it and doesn't realize he took a wrong turn until he's in the next state (and has taken the whole thread with him).
Now, I will do what I hope Vasillalov does and go away to let this thread continue...

[Sniz]

so what data do we have on this engine failure exactly?

how much boost?
what rpm?
what timing
what gas?
what mods
what meth setup w what % and what failsafes?
what was the owner doing w the car at the time?
etc?

[scrufy]

Originally Posted by Sniz

so what data do we have on this engine failure exactly?

Well, heres what we know after 7 pages

We know:
Tune A sucks because it has X and Z
Tune B sucks more because it has X
Tune C is better because it has Z and doesnt use X

We also know that:
Tune A is awesome because it has X and Z
Tune B is more awesome because it has X
Tune C is worse because it has Z and doesnt use X

That about sums it up.
Yup, we dont know shit about what caused this engine failure.

Its so funny how a thread even mentions a tune and an issue and the other tune is all over it, blowing shit out of proportion and distorting the issue into something that will make them look good.
It's just getting pathetic. Also- I didn't really have a bias when I bought my tune, I just had a friend with one and knew it worked so went with the same.

Now after reading all the childish crap coming out, I probably would have saved the extra cash and went with a Dinan.
They cost more and questionably perform less, BUT AT LEAST THE COMPANY IS ABOVE SUCH PETTY BULLSHIT. This is the same "mudslinging" reason I hate fking Politicians!

[Brey335i]

Originally Posted by Sniz

so what data do we have on this engine failure exactly?

how much boost?
what rpm?
what timing
what gas?
what mods
what meth setup w what % and what failsafes?
what was the owner doing w the car at the time?
etc?

^ this.

We need to know the details. What went wrong and when if we want to avoid this in the future. Even if somehow it was 100% the tune's fault, it would be better just to say it. We would all forgive an honest mistake by an honest man, but quickly condemn those who try to cover things up. Not saying anyone is doing that yet but details would be great

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by scrufy

Well, heres what we know after 7 pages

We know:
Tune A sucks because it has X and Z
Tune B sucks more because it has X
Tune C is better because it has Z and doesnt use X

We also know that:
Tune A is awesome because it has X and Z
Tune B is more awesome because it has X
Tune C is worse because it has Z and doesnt use X

That about sums it up.
Yup, we dont know shit about what caused this engine failure.

Its so funny how a thread even mentions a tune and an issue and the other tune is all over it, blowing shit out of proportion and distorting the issue into something that will make them look good.
It's just getting pathetic. Also- I didn't really have a bias when I bought my tune, I just had a friend with one and knew it worked so went with the same.

Now after reading all the childish crap coming out, I probably would have saved the extra cash and went with a Dinan.
They cost more and questionably perform less, BUT AT LEAST THE COMPANY IS ABOVE SUCH PETTY BULLSHIT. This is the same "mudslinging" reason I hate fking Politicians!

you've never spoken with Steve Dinan then have you?

he is a mudslinging expert.

[2 3pair]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I know you have to sell your tune which costs 3 times as much as a JB3

Man, glad I didn't pay $1700 for my PROcede!

[scrufy]

Originally Posted by Sniz

you've never spoken with Steve Dinan then have you?

he is a mudslinging expert.

Nope, actually I have a piggyback. I just dont have to see it here every time I read something is all I was trying to say. Sorry I was ranting.

[enrita]

Originally Posted by Sniz

so what data do we have on this engine failure exactly?

how much boost?
what rpm?
what timing
what gas?
what mods
what meth setup w what % and what failsafes?
what was the owner doing w the car at the time?
etc?

his failure did not happen all at once (like mine) but probably overtime since suddenly the car started running funny when he started it in the morning. Maybe a small crack became a big one.
how much boost? 18-18,5 psi
what rpm?
what timing
what gas? 94 octane
what mods Full stage 3
what meth setup w what % and what failsafes? 100% meth or 70/30 from what i know with jb3 failsafe to map 7
what was the owner doing w the car at the time? started it in the morning

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by 2 3pair

Man, glad I didn't pay $1700 for my PROcede!

Man, you're lucky! Jeeze, I got the full PnP version and it cost me $1850...plus $99 shipping.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by scrufy

Nope, actually I have a piggyback. I just dont have to see it here every time I read something is all I was trying to say. Sorry I was ranting.

I can only imagine what you would hear from him if he was on this board like the others, but he's a busy guy and this isn't his scene.

Originally Posted by enrita

his failure did not happen all at once (like mine) but probably overtime since suddenly the car started running funny when he started it in the morning. Maybe a small crack became a big one.
how much boost? 18-18,5 psi
what rpm?
what timing
what gas? 94 octane
what mods Full stage 3
what meth setup w what % and what failsafes? 100% meth or 70/30 from what i know with jb3 failsafe to map 7
what was the owner doing w the car at the time? started it in the morning

those damned cold starts will get ya! Always the worst sounding time for an engine for good reason...

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Man, you're lucky! Jeeze, I got the full PnP version and it cost me $1850...plus $99 shipping.

early adopter huh?

It would have been quite expensive if I had followed that route all the way from v1.45.

[Calvin@Vishnu]

Originally Posted by Sniz

early adopter huh?

It would have been quite expensive if I had followed that route all the way from v1.45.

I'm pretty sure he was joking. IIRC, Brian was a recent jb3 convert so he paid less than the regular price of $945.

[IlChengis]

Originally Posted by I335

These threads are actually my favorite.[...]

Well put my man, good stuff. Those that can't stand these threads should try pick up bits of knowledge from the many relevant posts... if they're still hurt, this might help.

Vasil: You can't expect Shiv to use terms such as "Alpha" or "RC2" etc in his software updates. Most people have no idea, 'beta' fits the bill.

Originally Posted by scrufy

BUT AT LEAST THE COMPANY IS ABOVE SUCH PETTY BULLSHIT.

I don't know Dinan and their practices so I can't agree on whether or not they are above this. Do you know why I don't know them? Because they don't bother posting here. All I know is that their products are overpriced and less performing but potentially safer and covered under warranty. I have enough information to cross them from my list of options, no need for me to actively research their products. I am sure that their active presence on here would yield better sales.

Same goes for Downpipes. If I decide to buy overpriced DPs, my main choices are AR Designs and Macht Schnell. Guess who will I pick based on their presence/participation? You've guessed it: Andrew.

-Walter

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by Calvin@Vishnu

I'm pretty sure he was joking. IIRC, Brian was a recent jb3 convert so he paid less than the regular price of $945.

Yeah...funny how people actually think the Procede costs 3 times as much as the JB3. Maybe it makes sense to them for a reason...? For jb3 owners, it's virtually only $300 upgrade.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by Treppiede

Vasil: You can't expect Shiv to use terms such as "Alpha" or "RC2" etc in his software updates. Most people have no idea, 'beta' fits the bill.
-Walter

You are right... What was I thinking...

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The cause of these engine failures have nothing to do with running too much boost. But rather running too much boost with no timing control, no knock monitoring, no output monitoring and poor boost control. In the case of the Procede, these limitations dont exist. And autotuning limits are typically only raised from the default of 17psi to 20psi once when race fuel is used (with or without meth). As for meth failure, it's just not likely to cause associated engine damage when detected flow is what induces the more aggressive boost/timing mapping. When meth flow stops or is partially compromised, the tune will immediately assume conservative map1 boost/timing values. And since map1 doesn't autotune when in progressive meth mode, there is little risk of a failure from finding yourself in a situation where the tune is too aggressive for your conditions.

These engine failures are just waiting to happen given the lack of understaning ullustrated by those supporting it. The "my tune can support that too and I'm going to prove it" mentality is all well and good when you prove it on your shop car first. Not when your customers are your guinea pigs. It's still surprising to me that anyone would voluntarily install what is essentially a poorly implemented boost controller, increase boost 2-3x, run methanol or nitrous and not expect some sort of immediate failure. Any tuner who supports that usage simply doesnt have much experience/understanding and has too much confidence in the safely measures offered by the factory DME.

Shiv that is complete nonsense. For a failsafe system to work is has to be connected and used properly. If one were to spray meth on top of the V4 without connecting a hardwire failsafe they would get 18-20psi and zero timing retard. If the meth stopped flowing or took longer than normal to spool up they would be open to the same problems. And even with a proper failsafe there is no guarantee the motor can stand up to 18, 19, and 20psi power levels forever. This setup was running high boost values for some time prior to running in to problems. If you want to advertise being able to run 18-20psi on this platform is completely without risk with your products then by all means do that and back it up with a guarantee. But it's clear that with this platform as with all others higher power levels carry higher risks, and again this was the point of the ORIGINAL post.

Mike

[raceyBMW]

Originally Posted by Sniz

you've never spoken with Steve Dinan then have you?

he is a mudslinging expert.

+1, listened to the guy talk locally on his flash here once, and the guy did nothing but bash on piggybacks. He can sling with the best of them.